Author Topic: The Best shooters have shorter arms.  (Read 52835 times)

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Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2016, 03:48:21 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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There seems to be an ulterior motive to this thread than just shooters and long arms.

It's another critique of Danny's drafting. OP starts off the thread by listing Rondo, Smart, and Rozier. Seems to be more of a rant against our drafting than anything else (in my opinion).

Took you guys 3 pages to notice? I'm surprised he hasn't thrown the word "midgets" in there yet.




 Bud Fan, you really should switch to a different beer. Seriously relax dude.
 A slight jab at Danny for repeatedly drafting little people that don't shoot particularly well, sure.
 I feel like your a bit of a bully though, does that make you feel better about yourself?

Just pointing out the facts (as you confirmed), I'm quite relaxed.

Just worth pointing out I'm not the one throwing the words "midgets" around casually... since we're talking about bullying and all. Oh well.

Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2016, 04:20:44 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Anyways to the point of the thread. Not sure about long arms being a problem for shooters. I do think there's a problem with big hands in general. But it'd be nice to see a statistical study confirming one way or another.

Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2016, 04:25:28 PM »

Offline greenrunsdeep41

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 No actually I do get to say whatever I want Greenie its free speech.

  Ray Allen
 Jason Terry
 Miller
 Billups
 Korver
 Del Curry
 Steph Curry
 Richmond
 Dale Ellis
 Hardaway
 Glen Rice
 Mike Miller
 Alan Houston
 Bibby
 Nash
 Finley
 Ginobli

 How many if those guys jump out at you as extra long players, one maybe two?

Okay, you're right. You do have free speech but that includes the freedom to present yourself like you have an under-developed self-awareness, which is what you did here. I was pointing out the lack of continuity between the two statements.

Im not sure what point you were trying to make by listing those players? Maybe it would be nice if you developed your point a bit more because it was unclear wether you were agreeing with me or not.

Here is a suggestion to you to find a little bit more concrete evidence within your argument, because at this point you keep calling it factual but you are doing no in-depth exploration of your hypothesis.

You are suggesting that there is a correlation between having long arms and being a poor shooter.

If you want to produce some type of factual evidence then you would need to create a database that lists and averages each player from all of NBA history in regards to their height, wingspan, and shooting percentages. Then using statistics find relationships between each of these averages.

Right now you are hand picking and being incredibly biased towards the recent past. I would also state that i completely disagree with your assertion because like i stated above it is a gross over simplification of a much more complex relationship between talent, skill, genetics, and work ethic- that is quite honestly impossible to predict futures within because of the inherent subjectivity of skill, performance, and experience.


There seems to be an ulterior motive to this thread than just shooters and long arms.

It's another critique of Danny's drafting. OP starts off the thread by listing Rondo, Smart, and Rozier. Seems to be more of a rant against our drafting than anything else (in my opinion).

Took you guys 3 pages to notice? I'm surprised he hasn't thrown the word "midgets" in there yet.




 Bud Fan, you really should switch to a different beer. Seriously relax dude.
 A slight jab at Danny for repeatedly drafting little people that don't shoot particularly well, sure.
 I feel like your a bit of a bully though, does that make you feel better about yourself?

Here I would warn you against being a bully yourself. You, quite literally, are bullying this poster into believing that he is a bully. I would have a much easier time taking you seriously if you did not exhibit such a defensive point of view. There would be no need to attack other posters if you backed up your opinions with actual, well researched facts that had the data to back them up.

But like I said above and previously. If there was a simple correlation between length of arms/hands and shooting then NBA execs would have a very simple job. But that is just my superficial read on this topic.
2019 Historical Draft - Golden State

C - Bill Russell/Joel Embiid
PF - Giannis Antetokounmpo/Tommy Heinsohn
SF - Kevin Durant/Billy Cunningham
SG - Bruce Bowen/David Thompson
PG - Isiah Thomas/James Harden

Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2016, 04:45:54 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 Well in the NBA where the average height is 6'7.6" so having 4 guys 6'2" and under and one 5'9" guy, they are little people around there peer's.

Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2016, 06:08:24 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 Still think there is something to this theory.

 

Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2016, 06:16:34 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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We can't expect all players to exceed at all things. Players have specialties. Physical traits funnel them towards certain specialties. If you are too short to do certain things, you will work at other things. If you are so long that you can smother offensive players, you might be able to get away with being poor at other things.

But listing individual examples is useless. You would have to do a serious survey to make any interesting conclusions.

And what does "shorter arms" mean? Lower arm to height ratio? Or raw arm length -- which would just be a side effect of the fact that smaller guys can't make it into the league in general unless they can compensate for their size with shooting.

Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2016, 11:26:37 PM »

Offline greece66

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  Rondo 6'1"  arms 6'9"
 Smart 6'2"   arms 6'9.25"
 Rozier 6'0.75" arms 6'8.25"

 

You might be right about the arms thing altho there are obvious exceptions (Reggie) but in any case, everyone knew the players you mention were bad shooters when drafted. It's not that Ainge was fooled or sthg.

Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2016, 01:02:24 AM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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We can't expect all players to exceed at all things. Players have specialties. Physical traits funnel them towards certain specialties. If you are too short to do certain things, you will work at other things. If you are so long that you can smother offensive players, you might be able to get away with being poor at other things.

But listing individual examples is useless. You would have to do a serious survey to make any interesting conclusions.

And what does "shorter arms" mean? Lower arm to height ratio? Or raw arm length -- which would just be a side effect of the fact that smaller guys can't make it into the league in general unless they can compensate for their size with shooting.



 Guava, I was referring to The ratio or arm to height.
 Those three guys I listed really have unusual length for 6'2" guards.

 Danny seems to see length as a  major factor in the Process. He's probably got some arm doctor on the payroll.

 Young has a monster 7 foot wingspan and I believe he's 6'5" shoes off

Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2016, 02:26:18 AM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 Here are my thoughts explained.

 The longer the difference in the players wingspan the more likely that player will struggle from long range or as a free throw shooter.

 Examples Rondo 6'1" height 6'9 Wingspan
                    Smart 6'2" height 6'9.25" wingspan

 The shorter your arms are in proportion to your height, the more likely you are a very good shooter.

 Some of the best shooters of all time

 Mich Richmond
 Steve Kerr
 Steph Curry
 Larry Bird
 Reggie Miller
 Mark Price

 The only three players I can remember that actually have shorter arms than their height are... Drumroll...

 Kelly Olynyk
 Yao Ming
 JJ Reddick

 It makes perfect sense. Longer arms are harder to control with fine motor skills, like long range shooting.




Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2016, 03:07:49 AM »

Online The Oracle

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  There is certainly some truth to the argument that longer levers(arms) lead to less accuracy shooting a basketball.  The longer they are the more things things can go wrong in the motion.  I doubt in any way it is more of a problem than hand size and even more specifically the length of certain fingers.  Women use a smaller basketball for a reason and so do kids.  If a basketball is to big or to small for the size of your hand it makes it increasingly more difficult to control.  There is no perfect size for everyone.

  Kelly Olynyk does have shorter arms for a 7 footer but those arms are still very long in comparison to average size people.  He does have very short hands in comparison to his height, I believe they are 8 1/2 inches.  That is more of a shooting guards hand size and probably the biggest reason why he can shoot it like he does.  My hands are very similar in length and I struggle to palm a basketball.  Kevin Durant said he struggles to palm a basketball also and we know how he can shoot in spite of his insanely long arms.

  Arm length, hand size and the length of certain fingers probably all contribute to your fate as a shooter but there are always exceptions to every rule.

Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2016, 04:55:32 AM »

Offline greece66

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Quote
The Best shooters have shorter arms.


Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2016, 07:25:02 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Short arm guys get blocked more, too.   With more arm length always more that can go wrong.   But a long armed guy who can shoot, is better than a short one if their shooting skill is the same.

The Ingram kid from Duke is 6"9" with 7'3" arms and he can shoot.  Jordan was 6'6" with 6'11" wingspan.  McHale could shoot the lights out and had really long arms.  IT has a wingspan of 6'1" despite being 5'9".

http://www.thesportster.com/basketball/top-15-most-impressive-wingspans-in-nba-history/?view=all

There have been good shooters with shorter arms light Bird.  But his arms were at least his body length. I think all this guy can shoot because of his hand size or arm length is just wishful thinking of people with normal body sizing trying to project that they would be superior to these guys in one area to compensate for the fact that they are not.   

Fact is, there have been guys with big hands who could shoot FTs, there are guys with long wingspans who can shoot.   For every DeAndre Jordan there is a Kareem, for every Shaq a Chief, for every Bird there is a Reggie Miller.

Some more arm lengths to ponder.

Quote
PG

Tony Parker: 6-2, 6-4 wingspan (ridiculously fast, quick as well, helps)

Russell Westbrook: 6-3, 6-7.25

Chris Paul: 6-1, 6-4.25

Rajon Rondo: 6-1, 6-9 (Sports Science at least said so)

John Wall: 6-4, 6-9.25

Stephen Curry: 6-3, 6-3.5 (first guy with short arms. Plus, the worst defender on the list)

SG

Dwyane Wade: 6-4, 6-10.75 (Yeah, his arms are ridiculous)

James Harden: 6-5, 6-10.75 (His are about the same level of ridiculous)

Ray Allen: 6-5, 6-8 (Just spit balling, though think it is around there)

Kobe Bryant: 6-6, 6-11

Lance Stephenson: 6-5, 6-10.5

Bradley Beal: 6-4, 6-8

SF

LeBron James: 6-8, 7-0.25

Kevin Durant: 6-10, 7-4.75

Paul George: 6-9, 6-11.25

Luol Deng: 6-8, 7-0.25

Carmelo Anthony: 6-8, 7-0

PF

Dirk Nowitzki: 7-0, 7-2 (Could be shorter, but he is 7 feet, lol)

Zach Randolph: 6-9, 7-2 (Could be even longer I have heard, doubt it is much shorter)

LaMarcus Aldridge: 6-11, 7-4.75

Blake Griffin: 6-10, 6-11.25 (Notice one of the concerns that comes up with him is defense)

Kevin Love: 6-9, 6-11.25 (Same deal)

Anthony Davis: 6-10, 7-5.5

C

Pau Gasol: 7-0, 7-4

Andrew Bogut: 7-0, 7-3

Tyson Chandler: 7-1, 7-3

Dwight Howard: 6-11, 7-4.5

Roy Hibbert: 7-2, 7-4 (Have again, heard it could be more)



Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2016, 07:44:30 AM »

Offline CapnDunks

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Perhaps players with shorter arms are more likely to develop their outside shot. Its harder to finish inside with short arms.

You like basketball? Well anyone guarding you is going to have way better reach with your short arms, so spend less time on your hook shot and more on your 3.

Also, let's say players with "short" or "average" arms(for the NBA) make up 70% of the league. You should always be able to come up with way more examples of good shooters if you're picking from 70% of the pool.

Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2016, 08:57:48 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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I agree that a lot more needs to be done to actually have this discussion. First, a correlation has not been established by the OP. Thus far there has just been select examples on both sides, which is not analysis.

1. Is there a correlation? Not yet known in this thread.

2. If a correlation is established, correlation is not necessarily causation; see discussion below.

3. We also dont have a consistent proposal: is it absolute arm length? Is it wingspan to height ratio?



There is a way to address this question. Barring obtaining data for the entire NBA, One easier way to do this would be to take a random sample, say 2-3 draft classes. Remove players who didnt make the nba. Make a spreadsheet with the columns of name, wingspan, wingspan:height ratio, career TS%, career 3pt %, career ft%. Then plot the various shooting stats vs height and vs ratio, and see if there is any correlation.


Now, even if a correlation or association is there, it does not mean causation. I believe even if there was a correlation, there is a very plausible explanation. Basketball is a complex game, and there are many different ways to have an NBA career. First, basketball consists of offense and defense. In general, long arms help with defense. Since quickness is more associated with weight and height, on defense, in order to guard someone, you typically have to be about the same size. However, if you possess relatively long arms, you will effectively be a better one on one defender, and a better rebounder relative to your position. In terms of absolute wingspan, you are more likely to be able to contribute with help defense, reaching into passing lanes, blocked shots, and rebounds the greater you absolute wingspan is. Now, offense isnt just shooting, either. A big part is passing, where longer relative arms may help with angles and avoiding defensive arms. I dont know how wingspan correlates to dribbling. Finishing at the rim is a huge part of offense though, and that seems intuitive how wingspan (both absolute and relative) can help you finish at the rim against the players typically guarding you.

Because very few NBA players are good at all skills, there are many ways to construct a team using many imperfect players, but you need to make a team that can play offense and defense.

So it may not be that longet arms MAKE you a bad shooter. It may be that long armed shooters are stars. Then you need to fill in the gaps. You might then find a guy who is a great shooter but bad at defense, bad at defense because of short arms. It is not that the short arms make him a good shooter, its that lack of long arms prevents him from being a star. Then, to help you team be all around better, you go looking for good defenders. All these guys who are goodscorers and defenders are highly paid on other rosters. So you find some flawed guys, guys who are NBA caliber because of there defense, and they are good at defense because of long arms and happen to lack the skills to shoot.

Then, what we dont see, is all the NON-nba players, who lack the skill to shoot AND cant make up for it with defense and rebounding because they also have short arms. There are tons of those out there.

Re: The Best shooters have shorter arms.
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2016, 08:58:11 AM »

Offline sofutomygaha

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Very very roughly speaking, if your wingspan is ~10% longer than your height, your shooting is ~4% worse than that of the Vetruvian man.

The wingspan to height ratio of player's build generally does present a trade-off between scoring efficiency at the rim and scoring efficiency elsewhere, and there has actually been some quantitative study on the subject. Midrange FG%, 3PTFG%, and FT% are all anti-correlated with the wingspan:height ratio, while rim FG% and FTA are positively correlated.

I couldn't find the sloan manuscript, but some charts are here
http://imgur.com/a/JB01y