ESPN: The Nets are a bigger problem for the NBA than the Sixers

[LarBrd33]

Premise is completely wrong. The Nets are NOT a problem for the NBA.

There is no problem with teams being bad. In every game, someone has to lose. The problem is when they do it on purpose in order to reap benefits. It hurts the integrity of the league. Philly is the first team to really employ a lose on purpose strategy -- which is different from giving up on a season.

The Nets have almost zero motivation to lose. If you are a FA and you want a great 2 or 3 year deal, the Nets are attractive. Winning isn't everything for players who can't command max deals.

There's a few reason why Philly is a problem.  One is, agents aren't pleased with them not making any effort to sign their clients when they can clearly use them... so you got them complaining.   Then you have teams who feel like Philly is misusing the lotto by intentionally putting themselves in position to lose so they can get all the best prospects... a lot of teams were angry that they snagged Embiid... they were angry that they snagged Okafor.  These were highly desirable assets and it was further magnified by Philly's unwillingness to discuss these players in trade negotiations even though they clearly need to trade a couple at some point.   So there's bad blood from GM's over that.  If Philly was wiffing on the draft, there would be less angst from opposing GMs over it.    The other big point of frustration is that Philly doesn't make an effort to reach the salary floor and are not a draw when they play on the road ... so Owners feel like they are a financial drain on the league.    So Philly is ruffling feathers all over the place.  It's part of the reason they made a big deal about bringing in Colangelo, a move at least partially intended to placate the naysayers by giving the impression that they have changed their course of action.  Ultimately, they are still going to tank and still deal with this mess in the Summer as intended.

Long-term, Philly is fine.   Nets are going to have a tough time putting together a contender, but I agree... I don't see them as being much of an issue for the league in the same way that Philly has been.  Agents are going to be fine with them... since they will gladly spend money to fill out that roster.  GM's will fine with them... since they were clearly be willing to discuss moves.  Owners will be fine with them... since as long as Brooklyn fields a mildly competitive team and has a draw or two, they shouldn't be too much of a sour note on ticket sales when they come to town.   

Brooklyn should consider doing what Simmons suggested in his podcast... bring in a guy like D-Rose for Johnson's expiring.   People will show up to see D-Rose even if he's a shadow of himself... and there's a chance he'd pay dividends for them.

Serious question LarBrd33, with the Sixers cap room this coming off season and their young guys combined with an almost guaranteed top 4 pick and possibly the Lakers pick, who do you think will win more games next season, the Sixers or Nets?

Who knows.  There's so many things at play.  It really depends what moves both teams make.  I'd say the Sixers can make a pretty immediate improvement this Summer regardless of free agency.  Brooklyn is almost entirely dependent on signing players.

Have you got any specific FAs in mind that you think will consider BKN this summer?

Maybe Conley gets a big deal??

I could see that happening.  They need a decent PG.

[TheSundanceKid]

The Eastern conference is improving.

Even with solid free agent signings name me 6 teams the Nets would leapfrog to make the playoffs in 2017.  I just don't see it.  Maybe they won't be high end lottery in 2017 but they will at least be in the lottery again.

Almost every team will have significant cap space next year.   Too many options to spread the good free agents across the league.

I can't name 6 but in a perfect scenario for the Nets I can see them passing Charlotte, Washington (if they strike out on Durant and take a step back), I can see Miami going backward. Potentially us if things go bad.
But yeah they aren't making the playoffs. It'll be back end of the lottery at best. But would you rather have the 12th pick of the 2017 draft or Brook Lopez? Because like libermaniac says there are trade ideas out there that involve the two that could be worth exploring.

[ssspence]

Premise is completely wrong. The Nets are NOT a problem for the NBA.

There is no problem with teams being bad. In every game, someone has to lose. The problem is when they do it on purpose in order to reap benefits. It hurts the integrity of the league. Philly is the first team to really employ a lose on purpose strategy -- which is different from giving up on a season.

The Nets have almost zero motivation to lose. If you are a FA and you want a great 2 or 3 year deal, the Nets are attractive. Winning isn't everything for players who can't command max deals.

There's a few reason why Philly is a problem.  One is, agents aren't pleased with them not making any effort to sign their clients when they can clearly use them... so you got them complaining.   Then you have teams who feel like Philly is misusing the lotto by intentionally putting themselves in position to lose so they can get all the best prospects... a lot of teams were angry that they snagged Embiid... they were angry that they snagged Okafor.  These were highly desirable assets and it was further magnified by Philly's unwillingness to discuss these players in trade negotiations even though they clearly need to trade a couple at some point.   So there's bad blood from GM's over that.  If Philly was wiffing on the draft, there would be less angst from opposing GMs over it.    The other big point of frustration is that Philly doesn't make an effort to reach the salary floor and are not a draw when they play on the road ... so Owners feel like they are a financial drain on the league.    So Philly is ruffling feathers all over the place.  It's part of the reason they made a big deal about bringing in Colangelo, a move at least partially intended to placate the naysayers by giving the impression that they have changed their course of action.  Ultimately, they are still going to tank and still deal with this mess in the Summer as intended.

Long-term, Philly is fine.   Nets are going to have a tough time putting together a contender, but I agree... I don't see them as being much of an issue for the league in the same way that Philly has been.  Agents are going to be fine with them... since they will gladly spend money to fill out that roster.  GM's will fine with them... since they were clearly be willing to discuss moves.  Owners will be fine with them... since as long as Brooklyn fields a mildly competitive team and has a draw or two, they shouldn't be too much of a sour note on ticket sales when they come to town.   

Brooklyn should consider doing what Simmons suggested in his podcast... bring in a guy like D-Rose for Johnson's expiring.   People will show up to see D-Rose even if he's a shadow of himself... and there's a chance he'd pay dividends for them.

Serious question LarBrd33, with the Sixers cap room this coming off season and their young guys combined with an almost guaranteed top 4 pick and possibly the Lakers pick, who do you think will win more games next season, the Sixers or Nets?

Who knows.  There's so many things at play.  It really depends what moves both teams make.  I'd say the Sixers can make a pretty immediate improvement this Summer regardless of free agency.  Brooklyn is almost entirely dependent on signing players.

I'd bet on the Sixers. Colangelo is going to start making moves to improve the team. Brett Brown is a good coach and the continuity of his tenure will be there. Yes, they've lost more games this year, but they've been very competitive night in and night out with a far younger and weaker roster.

Who is going to GM the Nets? Who is going to coach the Nets? Who is going to be on the Nets?

The Sixers have the same ability to completely overpay 1 (or even 2) FAs that the Nets do. The Nets are in a better market, but the basketball situation is very bleak. If the Sixers have a top 3 pick AND trade one of Noel, Okafor, or Embiid for a legit package, they're a considerably better basketball team, even without that FA.

[Moranis]

The Eastern conference is improving.

Even with solid free agent signings name me 6 teams the Nets would leapfrog to make the playoffs in 2017.  I just don't see it.  Maybe they won't be high end lottery in 2017 but they will at least be in the lottery again.

Almost every team will have significant cap space next year.   Too many options to spread the good free agents across the league.

I can't name 6 but in a perfect scenario for the Nets I can see them passing Charlotte, Washington (if they strike out on Durant and take a step back), I can see Miami going backward. Potentially us if things go bad.
But yeah they aren't making the playoffs. It'll be back end of the lottery at best. But would you rather have the 12th pick of the 2017 draft or Brook Lopez? Because like libermaniac says there are trade ideas out there that involve the two that could be worth exploring.

I could totally see the Nets in the playoffs next year.  Even without a top tier free agent signing.  They could sign someone like Rondo or Jennings to run the point.  Add someone like Gerald Henderson, Eric Gordon, or OJ Mayo at SG.  Add a veteran SF like Deng, Jeff Green, JR Smith, etc. to pair with RHJ.  Then add some veterans for their bench (noah, hibbert, nene, or even lesser would still work out alright for them).  No major free agents, but a significant talent upgrade.  That team could easily make the playoffs as the two biggest problems for the Nets right now are a lack of a PG and lack of depth.  Their starters actually keep it close in most games (at least until RHJ and Jack went down).  Give them a talent upgrade in the backcourt and depth down low and the Nets could easily jump into the playoffs.

[slamtheking]

The Eastern conference is improving.

Even with solid free agent signings name me 6 teams the Nets would leapfrog to make the playoffs in 2017.  I just don't see it.  Maybe they won't be high end lottery in 2017 but they will at least be in the lottery again.

Almost every team will have significant cap space next year.   Too many options to spread the good free agents across the league.

I can't name 6 but in a perfect scenario for the Nets I can see them passing Charlotte, Washington (if they strike out on Durant and take a step back), I can see Miami going backward. Potentially us if things go bad.
But yeah they aren't making the playoffs. It'll be back end of the lottery at best. But would you rather have the 12th pick of the 2017 draft or Brook Lopez? Because like libermaniac says there are trade ideas out there that involve the two that could be worth exploring.

I could totally see the Nets in the playoffs next year.  Even without a top tier free agent signing.  They could sign someone like Rondo or Jennings to run the point.  Add someone like Gerald Henderson, Eric Gordon, or OJ Mayo at SG.  Add a veteran SF like Deng, Jeff Green, JR Smith, etc. to pair with RHJ.  Then add some veterans for their bench (noah, hibbert, nene, or even lesser would still work out alright for them).  No major free agents, but a significant talent upgrade.  That team could easily make the playoffs as the two biggest problems for the Nets right now are a lack of a PG and lack of depth.  Their starters actually keep it close in most games (at least until RHJ and Jack went down).  Give them a talent upgrade in the backcourt and depth down low and the Nets could easily jump into the playoffs.

so....not saying that signing those players wouldn't be a talent upgrade for the Nets -- it would -- but none of them are leading their current teams to the playoffs now.  Why would they suddenly lead the Nets to the playoffs?  That's even supposing that these players who you're saying are good enough to get the Nets (currently the 3rd worst team in the league) to the playoffs would want to sign there instead of with teams that have better rosters and are either already good enough to get in the playoffs or are close to it.

The Nets will have some cap room next year but why would anyone rush there to play when other (BETTER) teams will also have a lot of cap room to offer deals to shore up their rosters as well?

Say the Nets added 3 of those players which is a big assumption.  Say Rondo, Henderson and Green.  Put them in the starting line-up with Thad and Lopez.  Not a horrible starting 5 but their bench still stinks.   I wouldn't consider that a playoff team nor would I think that team climbs much out of the basement of the league.  We'd still be in a position of salivating over the opportunity to swap picks with them next year --> something like swapping from a non-lottery pick to something around #8 (assuming no luck in the lottery).   The following year, I still think we'd be collecting a lottery pick from them -- probably right around the same spot. 

[Moranis]

The Eastern conference is improving.

Even with solid free agent signings name me 6 teams the Nets would leapfrog to make the playoffs in 2017.  I just don't see it.  Maybe they won't be high end lottery in 2017 but they will at least be in the lottery again.

Almost every team will have significant cap space next year.   Too many options to spread the good free agents across the league.

I can't name 6 but in a perfect scenario for the Nets I can see them passing Charlotte, Washington (if they strike out on Durant and take a step back), I can see Miami going backward. Potentially us if things go bad.
But yeah they aren't making the playoffs. It'll be back end of the lottery at best. But would you rather have the 12th pick of the 2017 draft or Brook Lopez? Because like libermaniac says there are trade ideas out there that involve the two that could be worth exploring.

I could totally see the Nets in the playoffs next year.  Even without a top tier free agent signing.  They could sign someone like Rondo or Jennings to run the point.  Add someone like Gerald Henderson, Eric Gordon, or OJ Mayo at SG.  Add a veteran SF like Deng, Jeff Green, JR Smith, etc. to pair with RHJ.  Then add some veterans for their bench (noah, hibbert, nene, or even lesser would still work out alright for them).  No major free agents, but a significant talent upgrade.  That team could easily make the playoffs as the two biggest problems for the Nets right now are a lack of a PG and lack of depth.  Their starters actually keep it close in most games (at least until RHJ and Jack went down).  Give them a talent upgrade in the backcourt and depth down low and the Nets could easily jump into the playoffs.

so....not saying that signing those players wouldn't be a talent upgrade for the Nets -- it would -- but none of them are leading their current teams to the playoffs now.  Why would they suddenly lead the Nets to the playoffs?  That's even supposing that these players who you're saying are good enough to get the Nets (currently the 3rd worst team in the league) to the playoffs would want to sign there instead of with teams that have better rosters and are either already good enough to get in the playoffs or are close to it.

The Nets will have some cap room next year but why would anyone rush there to play when other (BETTER) teams will also have a lot of cap room to offer deals to shore up their rosters as well?

Say the Nets added 3 of those players which is a big assumption.  Say Rondo, Henderson and Green.  Put them in the starting line-up with Thad and Lopez.  Not a horrible starting 5 but their bench still stinks.   I wouldn't consider that a playoff team nor would I think that team climbs much out of the basement of the league.  We'd still be in a position of salivating over the opportunity to swap picks with them next year --> something like swapping from a non-lottery pick to something around #8 (assuming no luck in the lottery).   The following year, I still think we'd be collecting a lottery pick from them -- probably right around the same spot.

Bench wouldn't be terrible with RHJ, McCullough, Jack, Bogdanovic, Larkin, and Robinson, and that doesn't include anyone else they might sign (they clearly need to add a quality big man to the bench).  I mean the Nets have already won 11 games this year and have lost their starting PG (who should be a back-up) and their starting SF (who was a rookie) to injuries.  It isn't unreasonable to think if they added Rondo, Henderson, and Green that those three would lead to 7 extra wins through this point of the season, which would put them very much in the playoff picture.

[bdm860]

not to mention that recent free agency pointing towards players going to winning teams or teams on the upswing rather than chasing bright lights or the much-ballyhooed nightlife.
Aldridge going to very small market SA and Monroe going to Milwaukee are a couple of prime examples.

That's even supposing that these players who you're saying are good enough to get the Nets (currently the 3rd worst team in the league) to the playoffs would want to sign there instead of with teams that have better rosters and are either already good enough to get in the playoffs or are close to it.

The Nets will have some cap room next year but why would anyone rush there to play when other (BETTER) teams will also have a lot of cap room to offer deals to shore up their rosters as well?

I think you have the wrong idea about free agency in the NBA.  Two signings (Aldridge and Monroe) don't prove players only care about winning.  And that's ignoring all the other free agents who signed deals to go to teams with no real championship aspirations.

Brook Lopez and Thad Young were both free agents and chose to stay in Brooklyn.
Robin Lopez and Arron Afflalo signed with the Knicks (and Carmelo re-signed the year before when he could have left for a better team).
Rondo and Kosta Koufos signed with Sacramento.
Lou Williams and Brandon Bass signed with the Lakers.
Tyson Chandler signed with the Suns, Brandon Knight re-signed with the Suns.
Monta Ellis and Rodney Stuckey signed with the Pacers.
Ed Davis and Al-Farouq Aminu signed with the Blazers.
Wes Matthews signed with Dallas.

None of these are teams which I'd consider contenders or on the upswing at the time of signings.

Sure players want to win, but they also want money, and only a few can get both. Of course Durant and isn't going to sign with Brooklyn this summer, he'll have his choice of teams willing to offer him the max (like Aldridge and Monroe last year), and he'll be able to get both money and a winning team, but what about the players who can only have one or the other?


Rondo got $10m from Sacramento, if Brooklyn offered him $12m you'd don't think he would have signed there?

Monta Ellis got $44m/4 years from the Pacers, if Brooklyn offered him $54m/4 years do you think he'd still choose Indy?

Now I'm not saying all the players I listed above are world beaters and can single-handedly lift a team to the playoffs, but they're all quality NBA players who can improve a bad team.  No reason the Nets won't be able to outbid other teams on mid-level talent and field a team who can win anywhere from 30-45 games and avoid the bottom of the NBA lottery.

[spikelovetheCelts]

not to mention that recent free agency pointing towards players going to winning teams or teams on the upswing rather than chasing bright lights or the much-ballyhooed nightlife.
Aldridge going to very small market SA and Monroe going to Milwaukee are a couple of prime examples.

That's even supposing that these players who you're saying are good enough to get the Nets (currently the 3rd worst team in the league) to the playoffs would want to sign there instead of with teams that have better rosters and are either already good enough to get in the playoffs or are close to it.

The Nets will have some cap room next year but why would anyone rush there to play when other (BETTER) teams will also have a lot of cap room to offer deals to shore up their rosters as well?

I think you have the wrong idea about free agency in the NBA.  Two signings (Aldridge and Monroe) don't prove players only care about winning.  And that's ignoring all the other free agents who signed deals to go to teams with no real championship aspirations.

Brook Lopez and Thad Young were both free agents and chose to stay in Brooklyn.
Robin Lopez and Arron Afflalo signed with the Knicks (and Carmelo re-signed the year before when he could have left for a better team).
Rondo and Kosta Koufos signed with Sacramento.
Lou Williams and Brandon Bass signed with the Lakers.
Tyson Chandler signed with the Suns, Brandon Knight re-signed with the Suns.
Monta Ellis and Rodney Stuckey signed with the Pacers.
Ed Davis and Al-Farouq Aminu signed with the Blazers.
Wes Matthews signed with Dallas.

None of these are teams which I'd consider contenders or on the upswing at the time of signings.

Sure players want to win, but they also want money, and only a few can get both. Of course Durant and isn't going to sign with Brooklyn this summer, he'll have his choice of teams willing to offer him the max (like Aldridge and Monroe last year), and he'll be able to get both money and a winning team, but what about the players who can only have one or the other?


Rondo got $10m from Sacramento, if Brooklyn offered him $12m you'd don't think he would have signed there?

Monta Ellis got $44m/4 years from the Pacers, if Brooklyn offered him $54m/4 years do you think he'd still choose Indy?

Now I'm not saying all the players I listed above are world beaters and can single-handedly lift a team to the playoffs, but they're all quality NBA players who can improve a bad team.  No reason the Nets won't be able to outbid other teams on mid-level talent and field a team who can win anywhere from 30-45 games and avoid the bottom of the NBA lottery.

The Blessing for the Celtics pick here every team will have money this year I think a young FA would pick Phily over Nets with the young talent they have if money is equal. The Nets will be a lottery team next year because of the cap rising. Lopez will hurt himself soon enough as well. Lowry will take the 5th year with Memphis.

[TheSundanceKid]

The Eastern conference is improving.

Even with solid free agent signings name me 6 teams the Nets would leapfrog to make the playoffs in 2017.  I just don't see it.  Maybe they won't be high end lottery in 2017 but they will at least be in the lottery again.

Almost every team will have significant cap space next year.   Too many options to spread the good free agents across the league.

I can't name 6 but in a perfect scenario for the Nets I can see them passing Charlotte, Washington (if they strike out on Durant and take a step back), I can see Miami going backward. Potentially us if things go bad.
But yeah they aren't making the playoffs. It'll be back end of the lottery at best. But would you rather have the 12th pick of the 2017 draft or Brook Lopez? Because like libermaniac says there are trade ideas out there that involve the two that could be worth exploring.

I could totally see the Nets in the playoffs next year.  Even without a top tier free agent signing.  They could sign someone like Rondo or Jennings to run the point.  Add someone like Gerald Henderson, Eric Gordon, or OJ Mayo at SG.  Add a veteran SF like Deng, Jeff Green, JR Smith, etc. to pair with RHJ.  Then add some veterans for their bench (noah, hibbert, nene, or even lesser would still work out alright for them).  No major free agents, but a significant talent upgrade.  That team could easily make the playoffs as the two biggest problems for the Nets right now are a lack of a PG and lack of depth.  Their starters actually keep it close in most games (at least until RHJ and Jack went down).  Give them a talent upgrade in the backcourt and depth down low and the Nets could easily jump into the playoffs.

so....not saying that signing those players wouldn't be a talent upgrade for the Nets -- it would -- but none of them are leading their current teams to the playoffs now.  Why would they suddenly lead the Nets to the playoffs?  That's even supposing that these players who you're saying are good enough to get the Nets (currently the 3rd worst team in the league) to the playoffs would want to sign there instead of with teams that have better rosters and are either already good enough to get in the playoffs or are close to it.

The Nets will have some cap room next year but why would anyone rush there to play when other (BETTER) teams will also have a lot of cap room to offer deals to shore up their rosters as well?

Say the Nets added 3 of those players which is a big assumption.  Say Rondo, Henderson and Green.  Put them in the starting line-up with Thad and Lopez.  Not a horrible starting 5 but their bench still stinks.   I wouldn't consider that a playoff team nor would I think that team climbs much out of the basement of the league.  We'd still be in a position of salivating over the opportunity to swap picks with them next year --> something like swapping from a non-lottery pick to something around #8 (assuming no luck in the lottery).   The following year, I still think we'd be collecting a lottery pick from them -- probably right around the same spot.

THEY wouldn't lead Brooklyn to the playoffs, Brook would. However they would be nice complementary pieces. I know it's a weak comparison but would you say Rondo, Henderson and Green are better than Williams, Johnson and Bogdanovic? I would and the former group made the playoffs...
The main point that I keep going back to is there is a significant chance that the 2017 pick is not a top 5, top 8 pick. If that is considered to be a legitimate scenario, would it not be best to try and get some value out of it now?

[GC003332]

This is my simplistic approach to the situation in regard to the Nets, Assuming that they finish only ahead of the Sixers in the Eastern conference this season.
There is no doubt that they should be able to attract some free agents but 8 teams in the east have more salary cap room that they do and those teams are already better than the Nets currently are.You have the Cavs,Bulls and Raptors, 3 of the best teams in the East committed to more salary, does anyone think that the Nets can be better than those 3 next season?
So for any upgrade that they achieve through free agency can be duplicated by teams already in a better standing, The Sixers with their developing talent along with cap room and this years draft picks could well win more than the Nets as well.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/

Unless there are multiple teams ahead of them that have substantial injury problems and they remain injury free next season, I believe that they are looking down the barrel at a sub30 win season again.
Who knows maybe that is me trying to convince myself of that due to the Celts being able to swap picks.

A few months back ESPN did a future power rankings that was interesting reading

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13716352/nba-future-power-rankings-team-ratings-players-management-money-market-draft

They ranked almost dead last in 3 of the 5 categories , if the lure of playing in Brooklyn doesn't get them a top flight free agent, they could be in a world of hurt.

[spikelovetheCelts]

They ranked almost dead last in 3 of the 5 categories , if the lure of playing in Brooklyn doesn't get them a top flight free agent, they could be in a world of hurt.

Brooklyn is the last place I think people will go next year with the cap money. Nets fans will come to hate the Celtics even more.