Does it bother anybody that Ainge apparently wanted Winslow over Porzingis?

[aingeforthree]

Draft day rumors are so difficult to determine whether there is any truth in them unless someone from a front office actually comes out and admit the rumor had validity. So many rumors we hear leading up to the draft are pure garbage meant to attract attention for the reporter or the reporter's network. There's very few truly plugged in people that know the truth about dealings behind the scenes of the Celtics. Most is pure conjecture.

That said, I have no problem with Ainge's ability to judge talent or draft well for the position he is drafting at. About the only two picks I have had a problem with is the Giddens pick(I thought for sure DeAndre Jordan would be the pick and there was a lot of noise that he would be prior to the draft) and Fab Melo.

And I do not have a problem with him not targeting PorZingas if that NY-BOS rumor was true or the Greek Freak over KO. Its dang difficult to judge these Euro players who are coming off the bench and playing extremely limited minutes in the Euroleagues.

Overall, I think Ainge is an above average drafter, especially given where he has been drafting over the years

That's the key.  He's done darn well considering where the pick is.  I'd take Ainge at the helm all night long.  He's far better than the majority of drafters.

[PhoSita]

Are we really getting upset over an "if" based on a draft rumor?




Isn't there enough about the team at the moment to be frustrated at without this "what if" issue?

I think it goes like this:

1. The current state of the team is frustrating

2. The draft seems like the only way out

3. Therefore, people worry about Ainge's ability to draft us out of this

[aingeforthree]

Are we really getting upset over an "if" based on a draft rumor?




Isn't there enough about the team at the moment to be frustrated at without this "what if" issue?

I think it goes like this:

1. The current state of the team is frustrating

2. The draft seems like the only way out

3. Therefore, people worry about Ainge's ability to draft us out of this

Huh ?

1) The current state of the team is outstanding.  We're setup to succeed and have youth all over the roster.  Talented youth I might add.

2) You can make trades, you have fantastic picks, and free agency to boot (money to spend)

3) Its's wide open, all setup by Ainge.  You have many options and aren't strapped like the Nets organization.

[Csfan1984]

I had a few players over Winslow and had DA picked any of those players over Winslow I would be disappointed but not upset. Now upset was how DA took KO over Gobet and GA. Outrage was when DA took Rozier. Didn't think Rozier was the best player on the board let alone a need so that one got to me. Winslow would have at least been a need at the time.

Now what though ?  Rozier looks like a beast at 21.  He's got a shot

Rozier is better than I thought but still not a need. Is DA trading IT or Smart? How can Rozier build value without a guy going down so he can get minutes? It's still a questionable pick.

[86MaxwellSmart]

Ainge is 50/50 drafting at BEST...probably 75/25 on trades though...C's should hire somebody to help out with all these picks we have---Ainge has WIFFED Many times in the draft---it's really pathetic at all the guys he has passed up...

2007:Gabe Pruitt instead of Marc Gasol/Josh McRoberts/Aron Grey
2008:JR Giddens instead of D.Jordan/Pekovic/Dragic/Asik
2011:JJ Johnson instead of Jimmy Butler/C.Parsons/I.Thomas
2012:Fab Melo instead of Draymond Green/Jae Crowder/Khris Middleton
2015 Rozier instead of Portis (still up in the air-but doesn't look good)

There are some EPIC misses during Ainge's tenure--and I know lots of teams passed on those players too...BUT---Geeze---Gabe Pruitt--? JR Giddens-? JJ Johnson-? Fab freaking Melo--?...he has almost NO CLUE how to evaluate talent.

I'm kinda hoping Ainge trades ALL of our picks---cause he's just gonna BLOW them.

nothing like cherry picking to try to make your point. 

just curious, can you point to your older posts that show those were the players you wanted in those drafts?

Pruitt --> 2nd round pick and you're harping on this?  kid had the skills but not the drive to succeed.     of those you listed, Gasol was the only real player of impact.  lots of teams missed on him, including the Lakers who had him and used him as a throw-in to Memphis for his brother.  Pruitt was taken about where he was projected to go so it's not like he was a complete mystery pick.

Giddens-->this one I'll go along with.  bad pick and was panned when it was made particularly with players projected to be better than him still on the board.

JJ Johnson --> considering who was still on the board and this guy's skill set, this was a valid pick.  not upset with this since it was in the 20's and those picks are crapshoots.  The primary other player being mentioned at that time was Marshon Brooks and we all saw how he worked out.  I get that the C's supposedly liked Parsons but didn't take him so that may be a valid concern but when a player slides to the second round that turns out to be pretty good, that "wiff" is on every GM, not just Ainge

Fab-->yeah, he sucked and 98% of posters said so.  wanted PJIII myself but he hasn't set the world on fire either.  sure, the guys that slid to the second round were better but there's a lot of first rounders from that deep draft that have been disappointments, not just Fab.

Rozier-->halfway through his rookie season and you've already labeled him a bust?  sure, I wanted Portis too and couldn't fathom why Danny passed on him but Rozier has shown some flashes that he can run point.  I'll give him this year and next before I label him a bust.

the thing I can't help but notice is you pulled out 5 picks in 9 drafts where Danny made a number of picks.  1 is a second round pick, 1 is a rookie.  not a whole lot here to support your opinion.  I also notice that you ignore the evaluation of the picks you omitted as well as earlier years.  is that because you'd have to begrudgingly admit Ainge is better than you give him credit for?  also, I notice you don't compare his performance to his peers for draft results.  is that because when he's compared to his peers, you'd have to admit he's at the top level in terms of finding players that can actually play in the league?

Ummm--I started off saying Ainge was 50/50 at drafting....so I was just pointing out the bad stuff
And---I did say that the Rozier pick was Still up in the air

maybe You like to cherry pick what I write---?

And if Ainge had just picked ONE of Gasol/Green/Jordan/Parsons/Butler...
we would be a much better team---just ONE, not ALL.

FYI--I Love Danny as our GM---wouldn't want anyone else---but he needs to get someone in there, who is better than him at evaluating young and foreign Talent.

[acieEarl]

Doubter? Porzingis is already really good, better than Barganani ever was. He's still a kid and no question Porzingis improves his game and gets stronger. My point is for every Dirk there's 10 other Euro that have sucked, so drafting Porzingis was definitely a gamble but definitely one that's paid off.

Winslow was on a national championship team that he played a major role in. No question Winslow had more exposure, and was less of a gamble. Looking at it now of course Ainge would take Porzingis over Winslow.

There's always that chance Porzingis is the next Bargnani, so drafting 4th for Barganani would be a huge miss.

Sounds like you were (and still are) one of the doubters.

[footey]

Also Porzingis obviously went high and was well thought of but no one thought he was going to be this good.  Give me a break.

I did. The record will show this.  Maybe not this quickly, but feel the sky is the limit with this guy in terms of size and talent.  For guys to say that Winslow could eventually prove out to be just as good as Porzingis, I ask you: Do you really think Winslow ceiling is anywhere close to Porzingis?  Porzingis is a more athletic version of Dirk Nowitski.  That's right: If this kid continues on this tragectory, we will refer back to Dirk as a poor man's KP.  This statement will get ridicule, but I don't mind sticking my neck out there in expressing my admiration for this kid and his potential.

I will go out on a limb and say that most European bball players are hyped up so much before the draft but more that 75% don't end up fulfilling their potential. I'm sure you could say that for most domestic/college 1 and done players too.
I'm under the notion and maybe I'm biased but I wouldn't risk a high pick on a Euro player - prime example #2 Darko....need I say more.

I see your point. But to lump "European bball players" into a category is lazy, and ultimately costs you in talent evaluation.  Is it much different than putting all "African American bball players" in a single category, and reaching a general assessment?  No one would advocate that, because we know it is foolish. Yes, there have been some big busts of European players drafted high (e.g., Darko, Bargnani), but there have been some great success stories (both Gasols, Dirk). Statistically, perhaps it is a fact (I don't know, honestly) that European draft picks under-perform relative to American players in the NBA. But even if this were true, it should not be given much weight, if any at all, versus actual evaluation of a player. It is on the tape.  The Draft Express video scouting reports are very detailed, so that even guys like you and I can get a feel for how a kid plays, and then project they type of player he can become. 

[footey]

It hardly matters that most FANS thought KP was gonna suck.

We are talking about professional GMs who are suppose to be pretty good at their jobs.

It's Ainge's job to scout or at least have personnel to scout out in Euro leagues and other International leagues.

If Ainge did have a great sense of talent he would have seen that KP was going to be a stud.

How many 7 footers have 3 point range?

How many 7 footers have handle and run point on a fast break?

And this guy has above average athleticism and very good basketball IQ who can pass the ball.

Sure a lot of GMs weren't banking on him being this good this quick but you still draft this guy for his potential because he's got skills and physical tools you can not find else where.

Phil Jackson was not sold on him. He didn't want to draft him initially because he thought KP needed 3 years to become a star.

But he listened to his personnel and scouts telling him that KP was a "once in a lifetime player" so he could not argue with that.

If Ainge seriously was going to draft Winslow ahead of KP then yes it bothers me a lot.

that is a big "if". I seriously doubt Ainge would have done that.

[PhoSita]

1) The current state of the team is outstanding.  We're setup to succeed and have youth all over the roster.  Talented youth I might add.

2) You can make trades, you have fantastic picks, and free agency to boot (money to spend)

3) Its's wide open, all setup by Ainge.  You have many options and aren't strapped like the Nets organization.

Currently there's nobody on the team who is going to flip the script, in my opinion.  A lot of nice players, and yes they're all fairly young.

Who on the team right now is going to be a lot better than they already are?  Smart, maybe, if he can turn into a decent offensive player.  The rookies + Young aren't playing right now, so becoming rotation players at all would be an improvement, but will they do more than replace guys currently ahead of them?

I don't have a lot of faith in a major trade happening or a major free agent coming here.  That's why I see the draft as the way out, and that 2016 Nets pick looks like the only really good chance of getting a top 5 pick in the next few years.

[loco_91]

It's a bit early to declare confidently that 'Staps will be better than Winslow. Winslow has shot poorly but he's done everything else incredibly well. He's just not a highlight reel machine like Porzi is, so he gets 0.0001% of Porzi's hype.

Porzi is 7'3, and guys with that kind of size are always a big risk. Moreover, he's shown defensive and rebounding ability in the NBA that he never showed in Europe, so it's not clear that the info was there to justify taking him. Final factor is that DA never got to bring these guys in for a workout - it's possible that Winslow slid because he shot poorly in all his workouts while Porzi shot better than expected, causing him to rise up the Knicks' board.

I'd be way more mad if Ainge drafted Frank Kaminsky instead of... oh, wait...

[KG Living Legend]

 I'll say this about Kristaps.

 He's the guy that you may not be too excited about, until you see him in person at an NBA workout.

 When I saw one of his workouts when you saw the shooting stroke and then the ridiculous athleticism and dunking ability for a legit 7'2" guys.

 I would have been wary of taking him Over Towns or Okafor because I'm scared like Ainge of foreign guys, but that's it. You can't take Dangelo Russell a below average athlete with very high BBIQ over a superfreak like the Zinger.

 Really glad the Lakers made that choice, probably concerned the just took Randle to play PF, but that was a mistake. Nice.

[obnoxiousmime]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft/results/players/news/_/id/20069/kristaps-porzingis

May 18 Update: Porzingis continues to be the wild card in this draft. Some teams have him ranked as high as No. 2 and No. 3 on their boards, while others have him in the eight to 10 range. The teams that have him high point to his unique combination of size, athleticism and skill. It's rare to find a 7-footer who can protect the rim, shoot the 3 and make high-IQ basketball plays. Teams that have him ranked lower worry about his thin frame and lack of rebounding in Spain. Porzingis will be coming to the U.S. in early June and will hold an NBA workout in Las Vegas on June 12. Once teams get to see him up close, in both this workout and in individual ones, I expect his draft status to firm up in the top five.

Ultimately the point of the draft is to get the best player. As Chad Ford reported above, some teams correctly ranked Porzingis very highly and some teams didn't. This wasn't a case where almost all teams had no idea how good he was.

I know it's early and Winslow could turn out to be a very good player but it would have just been reassuring (if the report is true) if the Celtics were one of the teams that correctly ranked Porzingis as a top talent. I mean, it's their job to know these things.

We won't know the final ceilings for these players for a few years, but generally speaking the "you can't blame them for not taking the risky pick" defense is lame. The whole point of scouting is correctly determining each player's worth. It's rare that you're in a position where the pick is an absolute, consensus no-brainer and you can just make the pick with total confidence.

[Future Celtics Owner]

It bothers me that in Kristaps workout Myles Turner was working out with him and showed he could be a huge bargain if picked later in the draft.

Now KP does not have the glute and hip problem but those look to be getting much better and in another year could be corrected according to doctors. Anyways he was in the sphere as KP and we did not go after the 11th pick from Indy when he was drafted. I would have gone to the heat, then after being rejected, he should have gone to Bird and done a deal for Turner. Or we could have lost just 3 more games and drafted him ourselves.

If Myles Turner was on the Celtics I am sure he would be a fan favorite and we would put a ton of stock in his potential. Kind of like how we were with Al Jefferson, but this dude blocks shots and protects the paint much better.

[ssspence]

Are we really getting upset over an "if" based on a draft rumor?




Isn't there enough about the team at the moment to be frustrated at without this "what if" issue?

I think it goes like this:

1. The current state of the team is frustrating

2. The draft seems like the only way out

3. Therefore, people worry about Ainge's ability to draft us out of this

Huh ?

1) The current state of the team is outstanding.  We're setup to succeed and have youth all over the roster.  Talented youth I might add.

2) You can make trades, you have fantastic picks, and free agency to boot (money to spend)

3) Its's wide open, all setup by Ainge.  You have many options and aren't strapped like the Nets organization.

You're reaching. We have role player youth. Every team has cap space, so the advantage that used to come with it is gone.

The Cs are not close. If your goal is a championship, the two best players on the team are not on it yet. And it's hard to get those guys... cuz every other team needs franchise players too. Let's hope the Nets picks can help us acquire at least one -- whether via draft or trade.

[Moranis]

A couple summers ago, I went through every draft pick Ainge has made and put the picks into three categories all based on if the draft had happened today where would the player have been drafted.  The three categories were Higher, Same general range, Lower.  Ainge was split about evenly in the categories.  So he is an average drafter.  He had some real home runs i.e. Rondo, Jefferson, Sullinger, and Davis, but also had plenty of disastrous misses like Melo, Johnson, Pruitt, and Giddens, and then of course he had the guys that would have been about the same like West, G. Green, Banks, and Bradley (though Bradley is probably higher and Banks lower today).  If you looked at it again there may be some movement of categories, but I think the misses would probably have about the same numbers as the hits.