Is Jae Crowder a starting small forward?

[Celtics18]

Great defender, emotional leader, and productive offensively.

Jae Crowder is absolutely putrid offensively. He has no business taking 12 shots a game the way he did last night.

We all have a bad game.

Crowder has a lot of bad games

I disagree.  I generally feel like he has a great game.  Offensively, not so much most of the time.  Defensively, he's a superstar.

Crowder is a good defender, but calling him 'great' or a 'superstar' in that category -- or what's worse, comparing him to Leonard -- is Homerville.

The guy's a nice piece. He should be a bench player eventually, if and when this team moves towards contention over the next couple of years.

If the eye test isn't enough, he's fifth in the league in Defensive Boxscore Plus Minus behind only Rudy Gobert, Hassan Whiteside, Joakim Noah, and Kevin Garnett.  He also happens to lead the league in steals at almost three and a half per game.

Crowder's playing like a defensive superstar.  If the team stays in the top five defensively throughout the season, Crowder's defensive stardom is bound to get recognized by folks living outside Homerville. 

[mgent]

Many people believed that Crowder would either take the first leap to becoming a poor man's Demarre Caroll, or at least be a serviceable starting SF.

I disagreed, considering his lack of a 3 pt shot, and I still stand by that sentiment, but hopefully he at least outlives my expectations. 25% 3pt on 3.5 3PA is pretty darn bad, but at least Crowder is wrecking havoc on the defensive end.

Do you guys still believe he's our starting SF, or are we simply waiting for the draft to come in to choose our future stud?

Crowder is probably one of the best wing defenders in the league.  He can defend smaller guards because of this athleticism, and bigger forwards because of his strength.  This by definition makes him a starting SF:  you want that defense on the court against the teams' best units.

Not all starting NBA players have to be great or even good offensively.

He is not all team level good.  Versatile and provides 24/7 effort

But he is no leonard

No, he's not Leonard or Tony Allen.  They ARE the best wing defenders.  He said Crowder is ONE of the best wing defenders, which is plainly obvious to anyone who has watched the Celtics this past month.

[mgent]

Great defender, emotional leader, and productive offensively.

Jae Crowder is absolutely putrid offensively. He has no business taking 12 shots a game the way he did last night.

We all have a bad game.

Crowder has a lot of bad games

I disagree.  I generally feel like he has a great game.  Offensively, not so much most of the time.  Defensively, he's a superstar.

Crowder is a good defender, but calling him 'great' or a 'superstar' in that category -- or what's worse, comparing him to Leonard -- is Homerville.

The guy's a nice piece. He should be a bench player eventually, if and when this team moves towards contention over the next couple of years.

If the eye test isn't enough, he's fifth in the league in Defensive Boxscore Plus Minus behind only Rudy Gobert, Hassan Whiteside, Joakim Noah, and Kevin Garnett.  He also happens to lead the league in steals at almost three and a half per game.

Crowder's playing like a defensive superstar.  If the team stays in the top five defensively throughout the season, Crowder's defensive stardom is bound to get recognized by folks living outside Homerville.

Yes, and 4th in defensive rating, 1st among non-bigs (one spot ahead of Leonard).

[PhoSita]

Crowder has been a disaster offensively, though he's mostly making good decisions.

His defense has been really good.  He's averaging almost 3.5 steals per game.  That can make up for a lot of missed shots on the other end.

If he can get his offense up to a respectable level -- i.e. 40% FG / 33% 3P / 70% FT -- while continuing to force a ton of turnovers, hustle, rebound, and bring an edge every night, then he'll be very valuable.

Currently, Crowder is playing like Tony Allen minus the ability to finish inside.  He still looks good a lot of the time out there, so I'm not ready to give up hope that he can become an adequate offensive player.

[BornReady]

crowder is our best SF
but i dont think id see him as the starter on a championship squad

hes defense is good + he rebounds + hustles and forces TO
but he doesnt shoot and score enough and efficiently

[markb]

if we going by short term memory, he was horrible last night......to put it simply he played very very soft.

[KG Living Legend]

No. Great backup though.

[crimson_stallion]

Great defender, emotional leader, and productive offensively.

Jae Crowder is absolutely putrid offensively. He has no business taking 12 shots a game the way he did last night.

We all have a bad game.

Crowder has a lot of bad games

I disagree.  I generally feel like he has a great game.  Offensively, not so much most of the time.  Defensively, he's a superstar.

Crowder is a good defender, but calling him 'great' or a 'superstar' in that category -- or what's worse, comparing him to Leonard -- is Homerville.

The guy's a nice piece. He should be a bench player eventually, if and when this team moves towards contention over the next couple of years.

If the eye test isn't enough, he's fifth in the league in Defensive Boxscore Plus Minus behind only Rudy Gobert, Hassan Whiteside, Joakim Noah, and Kevin Garnett.  He also happens to lead the league in steals at almost three and a half per game.

Crowder's playing like a defensive superstar.  If the team stays in the top five defensively throughout the season, Crowder's defensive stardom is bound to get recognized by folks living outside Homerville.

We have played 7 games out of an 82 game season.  Lets relax a bit before declaring Crowder a defensive superstar based on a 7 game sample size.

His past two seasons his defensive stats were nowhere near 'superstar'. 

[TheFlex]

On the right team, sure. But he's a Perkins, Thabo Sefolosha type starter. He has the potential to be a Tony Allen type starter, but he's not there yet. Let's see if he can maintain his steals rate somewhere close to ridiculous realm it's in now.

[slamtheking]

He starts at small forward, therefore he's a starting small forward. 

However, I'd prefer him as our first wing off the bench.  But that doesn't say much in the scope of the team because I'd prefer just about all of our players to be our first or second X off the bench.

I think this sums it up.  we don't really have anyone you could point to as starter-quality.  everyone would be better coming off the bench.  At best, as mentioned in other posts, only one or two of our players would be starting with 3-4 starter-quality players on the floor with them. 

[crimson_stallion]

Crowder has been a disaster offensively, though he's mostly making good decisions.

Making good decisions?  Really? Have you watched any of the games this year?!!?!

Crowder's decision making on offense has been absolutely horrendous this year. 

This isn't just based on the eye test either. His average of 2.9 turnovers Per 36 is more than double his previous career high of 1.3 (back in his rookie year.  His steal-per-turnover and assist-per-turnover stats this season are both below his career average, which means all of those steals his getting are useless because he's handing out turnovers at about the same rate.

In fact his steals-per-36 are 2.27x his career average, and his turnovers-per-36 are 2.23x his career averages...so his steals and turnovers have gone up by pretty much the exact same rate. 

In the games I've watched (i.e. all of them so far) his decision making has been horrid on offense.  Putting your head down and driving out of control into a sea of defenders - not really a good decision. Taking 15 foot out of control fall away jumpers (when you are a horrible jump shooter) - not really a good decision.

He's been forcing things way too much rather than just playing his game.  Sure guys like Thomas and Turner do stuff like that too, but the difference is that they are actually good offensive players, and can actually make those shots.

People here always bag the hell out of Bradley for being supposedly turnover prone - Crowder's turnover rate of 19.7% is higher than Bradley has ever managed in his entire career.  In fact it's higher than Turner averaged last year, when he was (rightfully) hammered on this forum for his poor decision making.

Crowder's biggest positive last year was that he played within himself and didn't try to do too much.  He has to get back to playing that way on offense, because if he doesn't he's going to find Turner taking his place in the starting lineup sooner rather than later.

crowder is our best SF

Technically I think Crowder is our only small forward.  But if you include other guys who can play the SF spot, then no - Turner is our best SF.

Compared to Crowder (per minute) Turner is averaging 50% more scoring , double the assists, the same number of rebounds, less turnovers, and he's shooting better percentages from pretty much everywhere.

The only significant category in which Crowder leads turner is steals, that's it. 

[slamtheking]

crowder is our best SF

Technically I think Crowder is our only small forward.  But if you include other guys who can play the SF spot, then no - Turner is our best SF.

Compared to Crowder (per minute) Turner is averaging 50% more scoring , double the assists, the same number of rebounds, less turnovers, and he's shooting better percentages from pretty much everywhere.

The only significant category in which Crowder leads turner is steals, that's it. 

have to agree - Turner has been the best SF on the team since the Jeff Green trade.  speaks volumes about how much we need to improve at that position.

[crimson_stallion]

I compare him to Artest because he might not be the most athletic player, but uses his physicality, quick hands, and understanding of angles to be a very good defender. He also is a guy that brings intensity and toughness every single night. Offensively, he's a very underrated ball handler and passer, who is a consistent perimeter shot away from taking the next step.

I don't see the Mason comparison at all. He was a PF who handled the ball great for his size (270ish), but couldn't shoot beyond 10 feet and struggled defending quicker players. This isn't to say he wasn't mobile for his size, just that he struggled against quicker wings and was better against bigger players in the post.

Anthony Mason was 6'7" / 250 lbs and was a PF /SF.  Over his past three seasons in the league (when they started tracking shooting ranges) he took 27% of his field goal attempts from 10-16 feet, and he shot 41% on those attempts.  Mason was a better midrange shooter than Crowder has ever been.

The main difference is that Mason never stretched his range to the three point line - and I kinda wish Crowder wouldn't either, since his three point shot is atrocious, and he's taken almost 50% of his career field goal attempts from beyond the arc (4.7 3PA Per 36) which is utterly  bewildering for a guy who is such a poor three point shooter.

Not the perfect comparison I know, but just reminds me of him.

Artest makes some sense later in his career, but the problem is that Artest was a far superior shooter (i.e. he was actually a threat from outside 5 feet, which Crowder is not) and that alone made him a far more effective offensive player.

Also I'm not understanding why you think Crowder is an underrated ball handler.  I've watched him plenty, and from what I've seen he's an extremely mediocre ball handler.  You can see it from this year alone.  The instant he tries to be anything more than just a defensive specialist, he starts turning the ball over left, right and center.  Avery Bradley is a significantly better ball handler than Crowder, and that's not saying much. 

[crimson_stallion]

crowder is our best SF

Technically I think Crowder is our only small forward.  But if you include other guys who can play the SF spot, then no - Turner is our best SF.

Compared to Crowder (per minute) Turner is averaging 50% more scoring , double the assists, the same number of rebounds, less turnovers, and he's shooting better percentages from pretty much everywhere.

The only significant category in which Crowder leads turner is steals, that's it. 

have to agree - Turner has been the best SF on the team since the Jeff Green trade.  speaks volumes about how much we need to improve at that position.

Yeah...the situation is pretty dire.

To be honest, we have a pretty good team overall and are pretty much one starting caliber SF away from being a very dangerous team.  If we could get a Derozan / Thaddeus Young / Rudy Gay caliber small forward on this team, we would be very hard to beat.  Sadly I don't see such an opportunity our there really.

Look don't get me wrong i really like Crowder, but he is a role player - the purest possible definition of a role player.  His role is to bring defense and hustle/energy.  When he does just that, he's hreat for us.

But when he gets caught up in trying to be more than that, and playing beyond his means, then he starts to hurt the team.

He really should be a "20 mins off the bench" guy.

I fact i really like the idea of Turner on the first unit with Smart and a Bradley (extra shot creator) with Crowder on the second unit with Thomas (extra defender).