Author Topic: Smart Vs. Randle  (Read 14131 times)

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Smart Vs. Randle
« on: November 06, 2015, 12:52:25 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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If you look at their stats, Randle is just better. His stats are better than Jared Sullinger's already. You can technically even say this is Randle's first year. This one is on Ainge. Randle would be looking pretty good on this team right now.

Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2015, 12:55:12 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Again?

Yawn
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Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015, 01:01:17 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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I remember when I took stats without considering their context and used them to provide evidence for my own personal beliefs #confirmationbias
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Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 01:12:43 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Do we really need another one of these threads?

Randle is always going to look better in the box score and Smart is going to look better with advanced stats that measure how his team does when he is on the court.

When Smart is on the court the Celtics perform +5.8 points per 100 possessions. When he is off the court they perform at -9.4 points per 100 possessions. So they are 15.2 points per 100 possession BETTER with him on the court.

When Randle is on the court the Lakers perform -16.3 points per 100 possessions. When he is off the court they perform at -6.6 points per 100 possessions. So they are 9.8 points per 100 possession WORSE with him on the court.

Smart is also shooting a higher effective field goal percentage than Randle. (46.8 to 45.8)
Are those the stats you are talking about?
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Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 01:14:55 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Sure, let's completely ignore defense and context.
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Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2015, 01:37:41 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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I would rather have Sullinger than Randle to be honest.

Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2015, 03:53:04 PM »

Offline ahonui06

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Sure, let's completely ignore defense and context.

Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2015, 09:00:04 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I don't really know enough about Randle but I love LOVE the attitude that Smart brings to the team. I think even if he never becomes and all star, he's the type of guy you want in your locker room while you're gunning for a championship. I'll still take Smart over Randle, if only for that.
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Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2015, 11:46:29 PM »

Offline colincb

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If you look at their stats, Randle is just better. His stats are better than Jared Sullinger's already. You can technically even say this is Randle's first year. This one is on Ainge. Randle would be looking pretty good on this team right now.

Their advanced stats say just the opposite (Sullinger's advanced stats are much better too). Go to the last two lines in the link below and look at OWS (Offensive Win Shares) and other numbers to its right and Smart dominates him. The other numbers indicate that their true shooting % (TS%) are identical, Randle edge in rebounding is mostly negated by Smart's edge as a ballhandler, and Randle's slight edge overall offensively is overwhelmed by Smart's edge defensively.

http://bkref.com/tiny/m4d42

Looking at Randle compared to the top 30 PFs in minutes played per game and he's 21st in PER as an offensive indicator and 26th and 24th in defensive win shares and defensive box +/- as defensive indicators. It's a small sample, but he's not lighting the world on fire as a second year rookie.

Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2015, 04:27:35 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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If you look at their stats, Randle is just better. His stats are better than Jared Sullinger's already. You can technically even say this is Randle's first year. This one is on Ainge. Randle would be looking pretty good on this team right now.

Their advanced stats say just the opposite (Sullinger's advanced stats are much better too). Go to the last two lines in the link below and look at OWS (Offensive Win Shares) and other numbers to its right and Smart dominates him. The other numbers indicate that their true shooting % (TS%) are identical, Randle edge in rebounding is mostly negated by Smart's edge as a ballhandler, and Randle's slight edge overall offensively is overwhelmed by Smart's edge defensively.

http://bkref.com/tiny/m4d42

Looking at Randle compared to the top 30 PFs in minutes played per game and he's 21st in PER as an offensive indicator and 26th and 24th in defensive win shares and defensive box +/- as defensive indicators. It's a small sample, but he's not lighting the world on fire as a second year rookie.

This is a good post, but the eye test tells me Randle looks like a sure 15 and 10 in the future. I can't see Smart having that type of impact offensively. Also tbh, that would mean Randle has more value in the trade market, because I do not believe teams value Smart's defense the way us Celtics fans do. Just being honest.

Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2015, 05:13:21 PM »

Online Moranis

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If you look at their stats, Randle is just better. His stats are better than Jared Sullinger's already. You can technically even say this is Randle's first year. This one is on Ainge. Randle would be looking pretty good on this team right now.

Their advanced stats say just the opposite (Sullinger's advanced stats are much better too). Go to the last two lines in the link below and look at OWS (Offensive Win Shares) and other numbers to its right and Smart dominates him. The other numbers indicate that their true shooting % (TS%) are identical, Randle edge in rebounding is mostly negated by Smart's edge as a ballhandler, and Randle's slight edge overall offensively is overwhelmed by Smart's edge defensively.

http://bkref.com/tiny/m4d42

Looking at Randle compared to the top 30 PFs in minutes played per game and he's 21st in PER as an offensive indicator and 26th and 24th in defensive win shares and defensive box +/- as defensive indicators. It's a small sample, but he's not lighting the world on fire as a second year rookie.
win shares are terrible statistics to compare players.  I mean last year Cousins had a 6 win share (you know with his 24/13) while Dirk has a win share of 7.2 (you know with his 17/6).
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Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2015, 05:39:30 PM »

Offline MJohnnyboy

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If you look at their stats, Randle is just better. His stats are better than Jared Sullinger's already. You can technically even say this is Randle's first year. This one is on Ainge. Randle would be looking pretty good on this team right now.

Their advanced stats say just the opposite (Sullinger's advanced stats are much better too). Go to the last two lines in the link below and look at OWS (Offensive Win Shares) and other numbers to its right and Smart dominates him. The other numbers indicate that their true shooting % (TS%) are identical, Randle edge in rebounding is mostly negated by Smart's edge as a ballhandler, and Randle's slight edge overall offensively is overwhelmed by Smart's edge defensively.

http://bkref.com/tiny/m4d42

Looking at Randle compared to the top 30 PFs in minutes played per game and he's 21st in PER as an offensive indicator and 26th and 24th in defensive win shares and defensive box +/- as defensive indicators. It's a small sample, but he's not lighting the world on fire as a second year rookie.

This is a good post, but the eye test tells me Randle looks like a sure 15 and 10 in the future. I can't see Smart having that type of impact offensively. Also tbh, that would mean Randle has more value in the trade market, because I do not believe teams value Smart's defense the way us Celtics fans do. Just being honest.

You see, the whole point of the advanced stats was to disprove the whole notion of the "eye test". The eye test will tell you that Jeff Green was a better player than Jae Crowder was last season. He's a better athlete, he puts up higher numbers in the box score, and he's a highlight reel player. However, advanced stats showed that the Celtics played worse with Jeff on the court than without. Crowder by contrast, though he's not nearly as flashy as Jeff or puts up the same numbers, showed that he in fact made the Celtics better when he was on the court last season. Green may be better at putting up individual numbers, but Crowder makes his team better.

So even if Julius Randle does put up 15/10, the question is, does it help the Lakers win? Obviously, no it doesn't. The Lakers have one of the worst records in the league and the saddest part is, they've had the easiest schedule so far. Advanced stats show that Smart, though he may not be putting up the biggest numbers, helps the Celtics win. Not to mention, the Celtics have played some pretty good teams and Smart was the leader of a good fight against one of the league's best teams, the Spurs.

Randle is more offensively polished than Smart but that's about all he has going for him right now. His defense is embarrassingly atrocious and he's even had some dud games offensively. Smart is already one of the league's best defensive guards and in a league being taken over by talented point guards I think yeah other teams really would value someone like Marcus Smart and the defensive impact he can bring. Not to mention Smart is improving offensively. So far, Randle is the better scorer. Smart is the better winner.

And it's "the way we Celtics fans do", not "the way us Celtics fans do".

Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2015, 05:57:19 PM »

Offline bostonsportsforlife

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Do we really need another one of these threads?

Randle is always going to look better in the box score and Smart is going to look better with advanced stats that measure how his team does when he is on the court.

When Smart is on the court the Celtics perform +5.8 points per 100 possessions. When he is off the court they perform at -9.4 points per 100 possessions. So they are 15.2 points per 100 possession BETTER with him on the court.

When Randle is on the court the Lakers perform -16.3 points per 100 possessions. When he is off the court they perform at -6.6 points per 100 possessions. So they are 9.8 points per 100 possession WORSE with him on the court.

Smart is also shooting a higher effective field goal percentage than Randle. (46.8 to 45.8)
Are those the stats you are talking about?
This a thread ender right here. Nothing Randle has shown would make me pick him over Smart at this point.

Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2015, 06:31:31 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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If you look at their stats, Randle is just better. His stats are better than Jared Sullinger's already. You can technically even say this is Randle's first year. This one is on Ainge. Randle would be looking pretty good on this team right now.

Their advanced stats say just the opposite (Sullinger's advanced stats are much better too). Go to the last two lines in the link below and look at OWS (Offensive Win Shares) and other numbers to its right and Smart dominates him. The other numbers indicate that their true shooting % (TS%) are identical, Randle edge in rebounding is mostly negated by Smart's edge as a ballhandler, and Randle's slight edge overall offensively is overwhelmed by Smart's edge defensively.

http://bkref.com/tiny/m4d42

Looking at Randle compared to the top 30 PFs in minutes played per game and he's 21st in PER as an offensive indicator and 26th and 24th in defensive win shares and defensive box +/- as defensive indicators. It's a small sample, but he's not lighting the world on fire as a second year rookie.

This is a good post, but the eye test tells me Randle looks like a sure 15 and 10 in the future. I can't see Smart having that type of impact offensively. Also tbh, that would mean Randle has more value in the trade market, because I do not believe teams value Smart's defense the way us Celtics fans do. Just being honest.

So?

Enes Kanter was a 19/11 guy last year, and this year he's coming off the bench for the Thunder - and playing only 20 minutes a game.

Why?  Because his defense is so absolutely horrendous that the team just cannot afford to play him any more - as long as he's on the court he's putting up tons of puts and gobbling up tons of rebounds...but the Thunder are losing.

Randle looks like he's heading in that same direction, and shows all the markings of a future Carlos Boozer / Enes Kanter - a guy who puts up fantstic numbers, but who makes every team he plays on horribly worse.

Andre Iguodala on the other hand has averaged less than 15 points per game in 8 of his 12 seasons as a pro, and yet ever single time he joins a new team he makes that team significantly better - to the point where he was able to get a finals MVP award in a season where he averaged 8 points a game (and only 12.4 Points Per 36 in the playoffs).

You cannot underestimate a player who can impact a game in huge ways without having to score a lot. In a lot of ways, that's even more important than having a game who impacts a game in huge ways BY scoring a lot.

That's because with a guy like Smart, you don't need to run the offense around him and you don't need to get him the ball in order for him to have a huge positive impact.  Teams can't try to come up with schemes to take him out of the game.  He impacts the game everywhere.  You can gameplan against a great offensive player - force him to areas of the floor he doesn't like, force him to take the toughest shot possible, etc.  You can't really gameplan against a great defensive player - they will have their impact no matter what you do.


Re: Smart Vs. Randle
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2015, 11:06:37 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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I think it's misleading to assume Randle will stay towards this path of defense. If he can be as good as Zack Randolph on defense, he should be fine. He has better lateral quickness so it shouldn't be a problem.

Also, Kanter is a bad example since he was just offered the max contract from Portland, so obviously someone thought he was worth it.

I don't know what else to really add here except that we will see. This just reminds me of the Rondo discussion all over again. How valuable is Smart? They're winning without him, lol. I haven't seen anything all that impressive. I could at least see Randle having the potential to make an all star team, which gives him greater trade value. And I think for a rebuilding team, that is the most important thing.