The real problem with our starting lineup

[incoherent]

The Celtics ended last season 24-12 with Evan Turner as their starting PG.

Why did we go away from that?
Because we signed Crowder and want to prop him up?
Because we need Smart to develop into a PG who brings the ball the up the court?

Fine. But at those valid reasons to lose games?

Smart, Bradley, Turner + 2 Bigs and lets recreate that magic we had at the end of last season.

[Who]

I would like to give Smart 10-12 games as main guard before considering going back to Evan Turner. I would like to see how Smart has developed as a creator. Smart ends up too much in the background when Turner or I.Thomas are controlling the ball.

I do think Stevens needs to go away from D.Lee and T.Zeller though. Those two are too stagnant and do not provide enough spacing for the limited perimeter play. David Lee in particular has been a net negative.

[Evantime34]

This is the basketball version of confusing correlation with causation. Just because we played well in the second half of the year with Turner as the starter doesn't mean he was the cause of us playing well.

The C's played well by knocking down 3's, going small and switching on everything in the 2nd half of the year. They aren't doing any of those things now. It's not like our starting unit played great last year, the team was driven by the 2nd unit last year too.

Even if the team is better with Turner running the point (which I disagree with), you still have to admit that it is better for the team's long term success that we give Smart a chance to handle the ball rather than Turner who will be gone next year.

[incoherent]

I dont know if I agree.

Our team was the 2nd best team in the East post allstar break with a particular starting lineup and a 2nd unit that had Jae Crowder in it that excelled.

This has been switched around for the start of this season and we are clearly playing worse basketball.

[furball]

You are probably right about Turner.  The problem is that last years team is as good as it get with him as the point guard.  If the Celtic are going to get better and become contenders they need Smart to reach his potential and that is as a point guard.  He may never become the top notch PG they need but they have to try to get him there.   

[IDreamCeltics]

I think you bring up some valid concerns.  Watching the Celtics play the Spurs last night a couple things stood out that I think are relevant to the discussion.

1.  Crowder doesn't seem to get any respect from the refs.  On one drive he got hacked twice and hit hard enough to spin him in the air and there was no call...  I'm pretty sure Kawhi made first contact and Aldridge made second contact.  It's sort of a big handicap to have a starter that isn't going to get calls against the other starters in the league.

2.  Evan Turner is one of two guys on the team who can really get the ball into the paint on their own... Having him play with Isaiah means one of them is playing off the ball more.  I'm not sure I love that.

3.  Marcus Smart worked really hard all off-season (by all accounts) and then dislocated a couple of fingers right before the season started.  I have to imagine that taking a month or two off has put some rust on his handle and his shooting.  I'd give him another month or so to see if he can get back to where he was in summer league, because he was really showing some ability to drive and create. 

 

[BudweiserCeltic]

I would like to give Smart 10-12 games as main guard before considering going back to Evan Turner. I would like to see how Smart has developed as a creator. Smart ends up too much in the background when Turner or I.Thomas are controlling the ball.

I do think Stevens needs to go away from D.Lee and T.Zeller though. Those two are too stagnant and do not provide enough spacing for the limited perimeter play. David Lee in particular has been a net negative.

I concur. I have HUGE reservations from our big men starting combo. Incredibly weak defensively, and offensively have been a disaster as it is... so what are they actually bringing to the table?

Time to start someone else. Sullinger has always been my pick.

I can say Amir as well, but I like the balance he brings with  our bigs, unless you start him in favor of Zeller, then I'm good with that as well.

[Timdawgg]

I would like to give Smart 10-12 games as main guard before considering going back to Evan Turner. I would like to see how Smart has developed as a creator. Smart ends up too much in the background when Turner or I.Thomas are controlling the ball.

I do think Stevens needs to go away from D.Lee and T.Zeller though. Those two are too stagnant and do not provide enough spacing for the limited perimeter play. David Lee in particular has been a net negative.

I concur. I have HUGE reservations from our big men starting combo. Incredibly weak defensively, and offensively have been a disaster as it is... so what are they actually bringing to the table?

Time to start someone else. Sullinger has always been my pick.

I can say Amir as well, but I like the balance he brings with  our bigs, unless you start him in favor of Zeller, then I'm good with that as well.

I agree. I have consistently seen good things happen with Amir on the floor. He needs to start and play 30 minutes. Sully is making his case. I will give it a few more games but I would love to see Sully and Amir starting in the front court and give them 30 +minutes each to see what happens. Lee, Kelly and Zeller can battle for the remaining 30 minutes.

[Fafnir]

I do think Stevens needs to go away from D.Lee and T.Zeller though. Those two are too stagnant and do not provide enough spacing for the limited perimeter play. David Lee in particular has been a net negative.

Yeah Lee has not been good at all. Which in a way makes sense given how little he played for Golden State. Some guys just decline quickly.

[PhoSita]

Do we think Tyler Zeller has declined precipitously, too?

Lee looks fine, to me, in how he moves.  I just think Zeller and Lee are both guys who thrive in space.  They looked good together in pre-season, especially their passing and overall IQ, but now it's the regular season and the perimeter shots aren't falling and things are grinding to a halt on offense.

The starting lineup makes sense from a size and skillset standpoint, but the lack of scoring, particularly the inability to make teams pay from deep, is just too great for it to work.


In general, I think the team is suffering from having too many mouths to feed.  Depth is awesome, but it's hard to ask some guys to come in and produce regardless of how inconsistent their minutes are, or how their role changes from game to game.  We had this problem last year, too, as I recall.


I think Stevens needs to cut the rotation down to 8 or 9 guys and just see what happens.  Yes, we have 11 or 12 guys on the team who deserve to play, but the team may be better with some of them sitting.


If Lee gets yanked from the starting lineup, I think you'd have to put Amir in there instead because (a) Amir's been our best all-around player so far and (b) that starting lineup needs a veteran presence and I agree that it should not be Evan Turner.



Crowder has stood out to me as a guy who is making the right moves and decisions on the floor, but his shooting ability just isn't up to the level he wants to play at.  I think he's miscast in the starting lineup for that reason.

The change I would propose is moving Amir, Sullinger, and Jerebko into the starting lineup in place of Crowder, Lee, and Zeller, and then just using Thomas, Crowder, Olynyk, and either Lee or Zeller off the bench.

Keep Turner on the bench, and stick to four big men, with at least one big man who can space the floor out there at all times. 

[mmmmm]

The Celtics ended last season 24-12 with Evan Turner as their starting PG.

Why did we go away from that?
Because we signed Crowder and want to prop him up?
Because we need Smart to develop into a PG who brings the ball the up the court?

Fine. But at those valid reasons to lose games?

Smart, Bradley, Turner + 2 Bigs and lets recreate that magic we had at the end of last season.

The 'magic' wasn't because of "Smart, Bradley, Turner + 2 Bigs".   The magic last Spring came off our bench.

We didn't go 24-12 because of starting that lineup.  We went 24-12 in spite of it.

Our starting lineup last spring routinely dug us into deep holes and our bench routinely dug us out and won games.

Playing against a ridiculously easy Spring schedule helped as well.

[PhoSita]

The Celtics ended last season 24-12 with Evan Turner as their starting PG.

Why did we go away from that?
Because we signed Crowder and want to prop him up?
Because we need Smart to develop into a PG who brings the ball the up the court?

Fine. But at those valid reasons to lose games?

Smart, Bradley, Turner + 2 Bigs and lets recreate that magic we had at the end of last season.

The 'magic' wasn't because of "Smart, Bradley, Turner + 2 Bigs".   The magic last Spring came off our bench.

We didn't go 24-12 because of starting that lineup.  We went 24-12 in spite of it.

Our starting lineup last spring routinely dug us into deep holes and our bench routinely dug us out and won games.

Playing against a ridiculously easy Spring schedule helped as well.

Yup.

Evan Turner and his "I touched the ball a bunch so I put numbers in the box score" games weren't the reason the Celts made a run to the playoffs, and they aren't the answer for the team now.

ET was training wheels for Smart . . . training wheels he seems more or less ready to shed.

The starting lineup doesn't need ET pounding the ball into the hardwood, it needs guys who can actually shoot.  Bradley and Smart have started the season cold from deep and Crowder, Lee, and Zeller have proven to be non-shooters. 

Brad's going to have to mix together the guys who can shoot a little bit with the guys who can't really shoot in order to prevent the starting lineup from getting the team in a bind before the second quarter even starts.

[Evantime34]

Do we think Tyler Zeller has declined precipitously, too?

Lee looks fine, to me, in how he moves.  I just think Zeller and Lee are both guys who thrive in space.  They looked good together in pre-season, especially their passing and overall IQ, but now it's the regular season and the perimeter shots aren't falling and things are grinding to a halt on offense.

The starting lineup makes sense from a size and skillset standpoint, but the lack of scoring, particularly the inability to make teams pay from deep, is just too great for it to work.


In general, I think the team is suffering from having too many mouths to feed.  Depth is awesome, but it's hard to ask some guys to come in and produce regardless of how inconsistent their minutes are, or how their role changes from game to game.  We had this problem last year, too, as I recall.


I think Stevens needs to cut the rotation down to 8 or 9 guys and just see what happens.  Yes, we have 11 or 12 guys on the team who deserve to play, but the team may be better with some of them sitting.


If Lee gets yanked from the starting lineup, I think you'd have to put Amir in there instead because (a) Amir's been our best all-around player so far and (b) that starting lineup needs a veteran presence and I agree that it should not be Evan Turner.



Crowder has stood out to me as a guy who is making the right moves and decisions on the floor, but his shooting ability just isn't up to the level he wants to play at.  I think he's miscast in the starting lineup for that reason.

The change I would propose is moving Amir, Sullinger, and Jerebko into the starting lineup in place of Crowder, Lee, and Zeller, and then just using Thomas, Olynyk, and either Lee or Zeller off the bench.

Keep Turner on the bench, and stick to four big men, with at least one big man who can space the floor out there at all times.

I think Lee  has looked good in terms of his horizontal movement. He hasn't had the same lift as in years past which is why he can no longer finish imo.

I like the idea of moving Sully and Amir into the starting lineup. As to Jerebko I like him as a big more than a 3 or at least him and Crowder as the 3/4. The team thrived going small last year, while the depth in the front court has caused us to go in the opposite direction.

[PhoSita]

Do we think Tyler Zeller has declined precipitously, too?

Lee looks fine, to me, in how he moves.  I just think Zeller and Lee are both guys who thrive in space.  They looked good together in pre-season, especially their passing and overall IQ, but now it's the regular season and the perimeter shots aren't falling and things are grinding to a halt on offense.

The starting lineup makes sense from a size and skillset standpoint, but the lack of scoring, particularly the inability to make teams pay from deep, is just too great for it to work.


In general, I think the team is suffering from having too many mouths to feed.  Depth is awesome, but it's hard to ask some guys to come in and produce regardless of how inconsistent their minutes are, or how their role changes from game to game.  We had this problem last year, too, as I recall.


I think Stevens needs to cut the rotation down to 8 or 9 guys and just see what happens.  Yes, we have 11 or 12 guys on the team who deserve to play, but the team may be better with some of them sitting.


If Lee gets yanked from the starting lineup, I think you'd have to put Amir in there instead because (a) Amir's been our best all-around player so far and (b) that starting lineup needs a veteran presence and I agree that it should not be Evan Turner.



Crowder has stood out to me as a guy who is making the right moves and decisions on the floor, but his shooting ability just isn't up to the level he wants to play at.  I think he's miscast in the starting lineup for that reason.

The change I would propose is moving Amir, Sullinger, and Jerebko into the starting lineup in place of Crowder, Lee, and Zeller, and then just using Thomas, Olynyk, and either Lee or Zeller off the bench.

Keep Turner on the bench, and stick to four big men, with at least one big man who can space the floor out there at all times.

I think Lee  has looked good in terms of his horizontal movement. He hasn't had the same lift as in years past which is why he can no longer finish imo.

I like the idea of moving Sully and Amir into the starting lineup. As to Jerebko I like him as a big more than a 3 or at least him and Crowder as the 3/4. The team thrived going small last year, while the depth in the front court has caused us to go in the opposite direction.

Jerebko can actually shoot, though, which is why I want him out there on the wing in the starting lineup.  He's also pretty big for a wing.  Starting Smart (6'2''), Bradley (6'2''), and Crowder (6'4'') leaves the team looking very small in the starting lineup.  Not great. 

Jonas also brings better finishing at the rim.  He's had some nifty flip shots and floaters off drives through the first three games, while Crowder has struggled to finish any kind of shot.

[BDeCosta26]

I'd really like to see Turner stuck to the end of the bench. I don't think he's useless or anything, but I don't think Smart needs him on the starting unit anymore, and putting him and IT together on the 2nd unit complicates ball movement and limits IT's contributions. Plus, putting those two out there kind of necessitates having Amir out there with them to provide a little interior D. If you start Amir and bring Zeller or Lee off the bench, our 2nd unit is gonna give up a lot of east baskets.

I'd be open to the idea of Jerebko starting at the 3, Amir at the 5 and having Crowder and Zeller coming off the bench, but we gotta be careful with Amir's minutes and starting him means a lot less time with Thomas. Plus, I feel like maybe first we should try putting Sullinger or Olynyk (my preference) in Lee's place first and run some offense through them. That starting unit needs spacing and I think Olynyk could help that offense take a step forward.