Author Topic: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.  (Read 23757 times)

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Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #75 on: August 19, 2015, 12:46:27 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Like I said, though, I don't think the Hawks are a great example of a team winning without stars since Teague, Millsap, and Horford are all a lot better than anybody on the Celts right now.  Korver's pretty good, too.
Pho, I don't think the C's are a great example of a team without stars.

Atlanta did remarkably well for a team without any first rate star (Horford might be the only exception). Can you think of any other RS first seed from the recent years?

I'm gonna be honest, I don't understand your post.
I'm gonna be honest, if my reply seems awkward, it's because your original point was awkward.

Saying that Atlanta had stars because its starting 5 were better than Boston's is missing the point. Apples and oranges (seventh seed/1st seed)
Atlanta had very little in terms of star calibre players for a contender.
Boston has very little in terms of star calibre players in general.


Again, I just don't really understand your point.  Not trying to be difficult, I just don't know how to respond.

Atlanta had a lot more star power than Boston, but you're right, they had no superstars, which put them at a disadvantage compared to contenders.

This is what makes it a weird comparison to make between Atlanta and Boston.  The Hawks are much closer to where Boston wants to be in terms of talent, which makes them a bad example of "how far you can go without stars." 

They also got smashed once they ran into a real contender, which makes them a bad example of that two times over.
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Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #76 on: August 19, 2015, 12:53:58 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think it's incorrect to say that because we have no obvious "stars" right now, that this team can't be anything more than an also-ran 8th seed for the next couple years or that our lack of "star power" right now means our future outlook is bad, that Ainge has somehow screwed up our rebuild or that a team like the Lakers has a better outlook than we do. I think that's ridiculous and ignores how well we have built a competitive, improving young team with a great developing culture while also accumulating the assets and flexibility to pursue all avenues (Draft, Trade, FA) to return to contender status.

I also think it's incorrect to say that this team as currently constituted is going to grow to contender status with a Sully, Smart, AB, IT core, or that without any major changes this team is even gonna get past LeBron in the next couple years. The "accumulating assets" phase of the rebuild isn't over, because we don't have a contending roster yet. Ainge won't be done collecting assets until we do. It's exactly why we traded Wallace for Lee and wasted cap space to give PJ3 a look and grab a 2nd rounder. If they underachieve this year, it wouldn't surprise me to see Ainge take part of this team down, keep our 1sts and go total youth movement. That flexibility to do that is part of the reason I'm excited about our future. I still think this team could surprise people and could even win 50 games, but we're not developing into a contender with just these guys. The FO knows that better than anyone.

You can like our current group and be really excited about our future while also being concerned about our lack of obvious "star talent" and wonder where that talent is coming from. The two aren't necessarily separate. I just realize that the FO is keenly aware of where they are, and know what it takes to get where they wanna go.


I think your opening paragraph sets up some straw man arguments, but overall you make a solid point.

Where I'm at on this comes down to the sentence I've bolded.

The Celts are not done rebuilding.  Nowhere close.  And to my mind, while Ainge has done a great job of maintaining flexibility and assembling assets, all he's done is give himself resources with which to make future deals.  The Celtics are still in a state of rebuild that reminds one of the Gertrude Stein quote, "There is no there there."

That's why I don't see the Celtics as any further along in their rebuild, or doing any better job of it, than teams like the Sixers, Magic, T-Wolves, etc.  The wins in the short term mean nothing to me because the team has no shot of doing anything meaningful beyond winning enough regular season games to allow us to craft feel-good narratives about the team and the coach.

I appreciate that the wins in the short term have actual value to a lot of fans, and I respect that.  I also understand that some people place a lot of value on the intangible stuff like team culture, providing positive examples for young players, and so on. 

I tend to think those things could be accomplished without sacrificing so much on the player development and draft asset front.  I also tend to think they matter relatively little until there is a core group in place that can carry over the intangible benefits into a theoretical eventual era of contention.
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Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #77 on: August 19, 2015, 01:15:57 PM »

Offline Jon

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Like I said, though, I don't think the Hawks are a great example of a team winning without stars since Teague, Millsap, and Horford are all a lot better than anybody on the Celts right now.  Korver's pretty good, too.
Pho, I don't think the C's are a great example of a team without stars.

Atlanta did remarkably well for a team without any first rate star (Horford might be the only exception). Can you think of any other RS first seed from the recent years?

I'm gonna be honest, I don't understand your post.
I'm gonna be honest, if my reply seems awkward, it's because your original point was awkward.

Saying that Atlanta had stars because its starting 5 were better than Boston's is missing the point. Apples and oranges (seventh seed/1st seed)
Atlanta had very little in terms of star calibre players for a contender.
Boston has very little in terms of star calibre players in general.


Again, I just don't really understand your point.  Not trying to be difficult, I just don't know how to respond.

Atlanta had a lot more star power than Boston, but you're right, they had no superstars, which put them at a disadvantage compared to contenders.

This is what makes it a weird comparison to make between Atlanta and Boston.  The Hawks are much closer to where Boston wants to be in terms of talent, which makes them a bad example of "how far you can go without stars." 

They also got smashed once they ran into a real contender, which makes them a bad example of that two times over.

Yes. This. I don't know why everyone wants to be the Hawks. They'd be no more than a borderline playoff team if they played out West.

And they're still in the same boat as us: they'll never come close to really contending until they land or develop a real superstar.


Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #78 on: August 19, 2015, 01:48:12 PM »

Offline greece66

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Like I said, though, I don't think the Hawks are a great example of a team winning without stars since Teague, Millsap, and Horford are all a lot better than anybody on the Celts right now.  Korver's pretty good, too.
Pho, I don't think the C's are a great example of a team without stars.

Atlanta did remarkably well for a team without any first rate star (Horford might be the only exception). Can you think of any other RS first seed from the recent years?

I'm gonna be honest, I don't understand your post.
I'm gonna be honest, if my reply seems awkward, it's because your original point was awkward.

Saying that Atlanta had stars because its starting 5 were better than Boston's is missing the point. Apples and oranges (seventh seed/1st seed)
Atlanta had very little in terms of star calibre players for a contender.
Boston has very little in terms of star calibre players in general.


Again, I just don't really understand your point.  Not trying to be difficult, I just don't know how to respond.

Atlanta had a lot more star power than Boston, but you're right, they had no superstars, which put them at a disadvantage compared to contenders.

This is what makes it a weird comparison to make between Atlanta and Boston.  The Hawks are much closer to where Boston wants to be in terms of talent, which makes them a bad example of "how far you can go without stars." 

They also got smashed once they ran into a real contender, which makes them a bad example of that two times over.

Yes. This. I don't know why everyone wants to be the Hawks. They'd be no more than a borderline playoff team if they played out West.

And they're still in the same boat as us: they'll never come close to really contending until they land or develop a real superstar.
IMHO No one wants us to be the Hawks, at least not in this thread.
@drogbagarnett made a point about the Hawks (that they showed that surprises can happen), but then Pho gave this a very specific interpretation IMO, not intended by drogbagarnett.

To my understanding, drogbagarnett never said that the Hawks should be our role model to become a contender without stars etc...

I think everyone here is informed enough to understand the limitations of using the Hawks as a model.

It's one thing to say the Hawks did the best of the situation they had at hand, and quite another to say that the Hawks' performance last year proves the C's can become a contender without adding high caliber players to their roster. The first is true, the second is false, as simple as that.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2015, 02:05:51 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Based on the evidence, I would say the poster was insinuating exactly that interpretation, actually:

Quote
If the Celtics outperform expectations, then depth will be a big reason why.

I think CBS is the reason why, guys play hard for him.


Depth can be a reason your team exceeds expectations, but it won't change the basic reality of your team -- you can't go from playoff doormat to contender because of depth.
Just like Atlanta couldn't last year! Right...?



Lebron and the scrubs on Philly's roster are not making the finals. Sorry.

LarBrd's definition of "scrubs" is guys who would come off the bench in a minor role, or not at all, on most really good teams.

In other words, the great majority of the Celts' current roster.


I don't know if LeBron would make the Finals with a team like that, but he could probably make the Finals with that and little else.
So then what's the difference between making the finals and winning the finals...?
You should be able to go that little step further and say Lebron and some average players (upgrade from scrubs...) should be WINNING the NBA finals every year!!! (not just making the finals!!)...
What is actually preventing you to go that step further...?
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2015, 02:25:19 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Honestly, I feel like the whole Atlanta Hawks thing in this thread is a result of the difficulty of knowing when people are saying something in earnest or instead speaking sarcastically.  "Just like the Hawks last year, right?"  ---> serious, or sarcastic?  I honestly don't know.

The funny thing is that it seems that the Hawks mean different things depending on your viewpoint. 

They won 60 games, so they're proof that you can contend without a superstar. 

They had four All-Star caliber players, so they're not a good example of winning without stars at all.  They got creamed by the Cavaliers, the first contender they faced in the playoffs, so they're proof that you can't be a serious playoff team without stars.   

They have been good in large part because of Al Horford, who they selected at the top of the draft, so they're yet another team built through tanking. 

They've been hanging around the middle of the East for almost a decade without getting anywhere in part because they've lacked transcendent talent, so they're an example of the dreaded treadmill of mediocrity.


Whatever you want them to be, that's what the Hawks are, I guess.
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Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2015, 03:58:35 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Don't know what's with the Hawks talk. Nobody mentions the Pistons. Who was their superstar? All 5 guys were close to equal in talent.
 Billups was mister big shot, but he was never a top player in the league, Hamilton was a good scorer that didn't play much D. Prince all around glue guy and defender. Ben Wallace Defensive stud, and Rasheed inside outside scorer, defender.

 They did go to Two finals and win one with this team of no real stars.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #82 on: August 19, 2015, 03:59:24 PM »

Offline ahonui06

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Don't know what's with the Hawks talk. Nobody mentions the Pistons. Who was their superstar? All 5 guys were close to equal in talent.
 Billups was mister big shot, but he was never a top player in the league, Hamilton was a good scorer that didn't play much D. Prince all around glue guy and defender. Ben Wallace Defensive stud, and Rasheed inside outside scorer, defender.

 They did go to Two finals and win one with this team of no real stars.

This was definitely the exception to the rule. They didn't have a superstar but they did have 3 to 4 all-stars during those seasons.

Celtics don't have a single all-star at the moment.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #83 on: August 19, 2015, 04:01:53 PM »

Offline oldtype

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You can win without superstars. You can't win without all-stars. We have 0 (for now.)


Great words from a great man

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #84 on: August 19, 2015, 04:05:44 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Whatever you want them to be, that's what the Hawks are, I guess.

Except for a team with a loyal/interested fanbase.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #85 on: August 19, 2015, 04:18:16 PM »

Offline Jon

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Don't know what's with the Hawks talk. Nobody mentions the Pistons. Who was their superstar? All 5 guys were close to equal in talent.
 Billups was mister big shot, but he was never a top player in the league, Hamilton was a good scorer that didn't play much D. Prince all around glue guy and defender. Ben Wallace Defensive stud, and Rasheed inside outside scorer, defender.

 They did go to Two finals and win one with this team of no real stars.

This was definitely the exception to the rule. They didn't have a superstar but they did have 3 to 4 all-stars during those seasons.

Celtics don't have a single all-star at the moment.

And the Pistons got lucky that year as well. The Lakers imploded more than anytbing. Put the Pistons up against pretty much any other champion any other year and they get swept.

So yeah, teams can be exceptions to the rule here and there, but that doesn't mean we should be modeling our rebuild after them.

However, I do think it's a good idea to try to be like the Hawks and Pistons (of last decade) UNTIL you can land or develop a star. I just wouldn't be expecting a title until we do land one.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 04:46:28 PM by Jon »

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #86 on: August 19, 2015, 04:43:03 PM »

Offline ahonui06

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Don't know what's with the Hawks talk. Nobody mentions the Pistons. Who was their superstar? All 5 guys were close to equal in talent.
 Billups was mister big shot, but he was never a top player in the league, Hamilton was a good scorer that didn't play much D. Prince all around glue guy and defender. Ben Wallace Defensive stud, and Rasheed inside outside scorer, defender.

 They did go to Two finals and win one with this team of no real stars.

This was definitely the exception to the rule. They didn't have a superstar but they did have 3 to 4 all-stars during those seasons.

Celtics don't have a single all-star at the moment.

And the Pistons got lucky that year as well. The Lakers imploded more than anytbing. But the Pistons up against pretty much any other champion any other year and they get swept.

So yeah, teams can be exceptions to the rule here and there, but that doesn't mean we should be modeling our rebuild after them.

However, I do think it's a good idea to try to be like the Hawks and Pistons (of last decade) UNTIL you can land or develop a star. I just wouldn't be expecting a title until we do land one.

Still remember that 2004 Finals with Kobe chucking away thinking he was the first option over Shaq. If the Lakers just fed Shaq the ball and moved the offense through him they would've destroyed Detroit.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #87 on: August 19, 2015, 05:05:45 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Don't know what's with the Hawks talk. Nobody mentions the Pistons. Who was their superstar? All 5 guys were close to equal in talent.
 Billups was mister big shot, but he was never a top player in the league, Hamilton was a good scorer that didn't play much D. Prince all around glue guy and defender. Ben Wallace Defensive stud, and Rasheed inside outside scorer, defender.

 They did go to Two finals and win one with this team of no real stars.

If you qualify the Wallace Brothers era as a Pistons team 'with no real stars' then the 2015 Celtics should be relegated to the D-league immediately.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #88 on: August 19, 2015, 05:27:02 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
They won 60 games, so they're proof that you can contend without a superstar.

People have different views of contention, basically they did well when it did not count.

Re: You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast.
« Reply #89 on: August 19, 2015, 05:34:38 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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"You want Proof. You Can't handle the Proof! C's rebuilding fast."

Lol.