Kelly as a Center.

[mgent]

Interesting.  Looking forward to seeing an educated rebuttal on this.  Common wisdom was that Olynyk was getting minutes out of position, because the team needed to develop him and we already had Bass and Sullinger getting major minutes at PF.   I'm too lazy to search for the articles myself, but I've read multiple times that he was a complete disaster as a rim protector.   If he was even moderately capable of being a center, he wouldn't have lost the starting role to Tyler Zeller.

Common wisdom states that KO is a Center because he's not fast enough to be a PF.

Everyone knows a speed advantage outweighs a strength advantage when it comes to basketball.

In today's NBA with LeBrons, and Durants, and Draymond Greens, and Paul Pierces, etc. playing PF, Olynyk could never hang.  Forget SFs, he can't even hang with the average or above average athletes who play PF.

He can maybe guard 10% of PF's effectively.

On the other hand, he can probably guard ~40% of Centers effectively.

Add that to the fact that drawing Centers out beyond 23 feet is 1000 times more valuable than drawing PFs.

As far as the "If he was even moderately capable of being a center, he wouldn't have lost the starting role to Tyler Zeller," bs goes, any 2nd year late lottery pick would have started behind a perfectly average and proven Center like Zeller.  Don't forget, experience says something.

If Stevens didn't start Zeller over KO, he would have been setting a precedent for any proven veteran who was being traded to or considered by the Celtics.

Position is everything in the NBA.  Face the facts, championship-level PFs will always have the position on KO because he can't keep up with them.  On the other hand, he will have the position against other Centers, which means even though he's out-strengthed by them, he might be able to keep them at bay.

Again, that's disregarding his offensive ability; and let's face it, offense is what's most likely going to keep him in the NBA.  Forget how much better he is at spacing than most Centers, try and compare his ball-handling.  Once he gains some confidence in the NBA, he should be able to blow by the majority of Centers with the dribble (vs. probably a minority of PFs)

[Surferdad]

But the real caveat here is that CBS does not use positions like other coaches.

"Obviously everyone starts with 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s and 5s when they look at a basketball team," Stevens said. "I look at ball-handlers, wings, swings and bigs. I only have four categories. The more guys that can play the more positions, the better. Right now I think if you look at the roster, I think we have three of the four categories with a lot of depth. And I think that swing area where you can go 3-4 and play that way, that's the area we're going to have to adress as we move into the next few weeks and look at our team."

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2015/06/brad_stevens_boston_celtics_lu.html

KO is a big enough said, we have some versatility this year and flexibility.

That quote from CBS is quite well-known by now, but it reflects offensive-minded thinking. I still believe you need to define who is the 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 for defensive purposes.

[Smitty77]

There's nothing wrong with rim protection coming from the power forward position. I think Amir would be decent/solid in that roll.

Unfortunately last year I remember Kelly as the starting center, "It's Kelly's job to loose" I remember CBS saying that several times. I also recall what the first 10-20 games were like. He was paired with Sully as the PF granted. He eventually lost his starting job to Zeller for the entire year.

So I guess you're saying on defense the less Kelly has to move, react, and chase opposing players around, the more valuable his defense is. Makes sense.

I think the origin of this discussion is the realization that we are overflowing at the PF position and pretty much all of them are likable players.  We're reaching for ways to convince ourselves that some could be centers.

David Lee
Jared Sullinger
Amir Johnson
Kelly Olynyk
Jonas Jerbeko
Mickey Jordan

I'm interested to see all of them get minutes.   Sure, in a pinch a guy like Lee or Sully can play center, but it's not preferable.  Some folks have pointed out that Amir Johnson was effective while playing out of position at center.   Sure, Olynyk played minutes at center, but I don't believe he's a solution at that position.  I'd be curious to see what Olynyk could do with 30+ minutes at his natural PF position, though.  I think he still might have a real future.  The guy is really effective offensively.

I firmly believe that Amir after 10 years in the league and at 6'11' in shoes IS a CENTER!!!

He is our STARTING CENTER to be more direct.

Smitty77

[saltlover]

But the real caveat here is that CBS does not use positions like other coaches.

"Obviously everyone starts with 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s and 5s when they look at a basketball team," Stevens said. "I look at ball-handlers, wings, swings and bigs. I only have four categories. The more guys that can play the more positions, the better. Right now I think if you look at the roster, I think we have three of the four categories with a lot of depth. And I think that swing area where you can go 3-4 and play that way, that's the area we're going to have to adress as we move into the next few weeks and look at our team."

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2015/06/brad_stevens_boston_celtics_lu.html

KO is a big enough said, we have some versatility this year and flexibility.

That quote from CBS is quite well-known by now, but it reflects offensive-minded thinking. I still believe you need to define who is the 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 for defensive purposes.

It is not simply for offensive purposes.  The point of swings is that they will sometimes guard 3s, sometimes 4s, and maybe sometimes 5s (as Draymond Green does in Golden State, and Crowder did a couple times last year).  Ball handlers is definitely an offensive thought-process, but the others three are really two-way terms (and ball handlers tend to guard other ball-handlers -- Evan Turner being an exception).

[LooseCannon]

Also, does 82games limit to the 20 most popular line-ups?  Found it interesting that I didn't see a single line-up featuring both Olynyk and Zeller together.  Either they never shared the court together or 82games is only showing the 20 most frequent.

Basketball Reference can give you how much time they played together.: 146.8 minutes (in 36 games), during which the Celtics had -10 net points.  It was pretty much the worst net points/minutes for any two-man combination including Olynyk.

The most common five-man combo was Bradley-Green-Turner-Olynyk-Zeller, which only had 19.5 minutes.

[MBunge]

Lar, that +/- is what immediately stood out to me.

For another perspective, his DRPM last season was 1.71. 24th among Cs.

So does that +/- reflect the great defensive impact Olynyk had during those brief 42 minutes?... or does that all fall on the great Marcus Thornton?... or should we read into the fact that line-ups featuring Marcus Thornton probably weren't going against top competition?   Thornton played a total of 39 games for the Celtics... he didn't start a single game.   So consider that when looking at those 42 minutes where Olynyk was a beast defensively in a lineup featuring Marcus Thornton...

The other "big" defensive line-up with Olynyk playing center played together for a whopping 26 minutes... and it featured Smart, Jae Crowder and Jonas Jerebko.   We crediting Olynyk for the success of the 26 minutes featuring Crowder, Jerebko and Smart?   

Again, you have to search for some individual defensive stats.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to look at more complicated statistics when you're examine a line up that went 10-22 with a +\- of -51.

I've also never understood the aversion to KO at center.  He's young and doesn't have great athleticism, so it figures he's going to struggle but it's like Marcus Smart.  Smart might be better right now at the 2 but it's obvious his potential as a pg is so much greater. 

Mike

[LooseCannon]

Lar, that +/- is what immediately stood out to me.

For another perspective, his DRPM last season was 1.71. 24th among Cs.

So does that +/- reflect the great defensive impact Olynyk had during those brief 42 minutes?... or does that all fall on the great Marcus Thornton?... or should we read into the fact that line-ups featuring Marcus Thornton probably weren't going against top competition?   Thornton played a total of 39 games for the Celtics... he didn't start a single game.   So consider that when looking at those 42 minutes where Olynyk was a beast defensively in a lineup featuring Marcus Thornton...

The other "big" defensive line-up with Olynyk playing center played together for a whopping 26 minutes... and it featured Smart, Jae Crowder and Jonas Jerebko.   We crediting Olynyk for the success of the 26 minutes featuring Crowder, Jerebko and Smart?   

Again, you have to search for some individual defensive stats.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to look at more complicated statistics when you're examine a line up that went 10-22 with a +\- of -51.

I've also never understood the aversion to KO at center.  He's young and doesn't have great athleticism, so it figures he's going to struggle but it's like Marcus Smart.  Smart might be better right now at the 2 but it's obvious his potential as a pg is so much greater. 

Mike

The aversion to KO is easy to understand if you assume it is at least partially due to a reluctance to abandon traditional positional roles. 

Most of the stats cited in this thread describing Olynyk as a center are really stats which generally assume that the tallest player on the floor is a center and that he usually guarded the other team's tallest player.  Is that an accurate description of his role?

[Greyman]

Looking at the stats and various other assessments, there seems to be a line of argument that centre is KO's best position (mainly due to deficiencies as a forward), but he isn't a great centre. To be fair his attributes have been mentioned and he does a lot of good things. I think he could be a vital link in a CBS coached team, especially off the bench. Due to him not being a carbon copy of a 'typical' centre or like the other players we have that are likely to play centre, he changes things up when he comes on and creates a different threat.

He also has that ability to dislocate an all stars shoulder or elbow, which could be valuable.

There is little doubt that playing time will be shared around with this squad and I think KO will get enough to use his strengths but won't be over used so his weaknesses become a massive problem.

[ahonui06]

Looking at the stats and various other assessments, there seems to be a line of argument that centre is KO's best position (mainly due to deficiencies as a forward), but he isn't a great centre. To be fair his attributes have been mentioned and he does a lot of good things. I think he could be a vital link in a CBS coached team, especially off the bench. Due to him not being a carbon copy of a 'typical' centre or like the other players we have that are likely to play centre, he changes things up when he comes on and creates a different threat.

He also has that ability to dislocate an all stars shoulder or elbow, which could be valuable.

There is little doubt that playing time will be shared around with this squad and I think KO will get enough to use his strengths but won't be over used so his weaknesses become a massive problem.

KO as a Center isn't a bad thing since Boston is in the East and the Celtics can afford to get away with it.

[LarBrd33]

While he played admirably, Tyler Zeller is at best a 2nd or 3rd string center in the NBA.  What does it say about Kelly Olynyk that he lost the starting role to Zeller?   Olynyk started 13 games... it didn't work.  Zeller started 59. 

Considering Olynyk was arguably the 2nd or 3rd most important young asset on the team (along with Sully and Smart), he needed minutes.  He couldn't get them at the natural PF slot.  He was so poor as a center option, that he lost a role (that was his to lose) to a journeyman. 

He might be able to fit in a few spot minutes there in gimmicky lineups where we need three point shooting from the center position.   I don't see that as his long term position in this league. 

What people seem to be suggesting is that Olynyk is currently our 3rd string center (behind Amir and Zeller) and our 3rd/4th string PF (behind Lee, Sully, and Amir).    The origin of this thread stems from a comment that we were overloaded with PFs.   Even pretending Olynyk is a center isn't going to resolve our log jam... this team is desperately in need of a trade this season to clean up this mess.  I like Kelly and would be interested to see what he's capable of doing in 30+ minutes.  That can't happen right now... regardless if you want to pretend like he's a center.

[D.o.s.]

Looking at the stats and various other assessments, there seems to be a line of argument that centre is KO's best position (mainly due to deficiencies as a forward), but he isn't a great centre. To be fair his attributes have been mentioned and he does a lot of good things. I think he could be a vital link in a CBS coached team, especially off the bench. Due to him not being a carbon copy of a 'typical' centre or like the other players we have that are likely to play centre, he changes things up when he comes on and creates a different threat.

He also has that ability to dislocate an all stars shoulder or elbow, which could be valuable.

There is little doubt that playing time will be shared around with this squad and I think KO will get enough to use his strengths but won't be over used so his weaknesses become a massive problem.

I agree with this. If all indications are that Olynyk is more effective as a center than a power forward, play him at center. It doesn't absolve the team of the fact that we lack a starting-caliber center, and I don't believe that we should pass on including Olynyk in a trade for one should the opportunity arise or refuse to curtail his minutes if one appears on the roster along side him.

[PhoSita]

I agree with the above -- even if Kelly can be valuable as a center, I think he's got two better, more reliable players at center ahead of him on the depth chart.

Zeller may not be as exciting as Kelly or Sullinger can be, but he provides efficient scoring and adequate defense.  He fills an important offensive role as the agile role man who can catch and finish, plus he has a solid spot up jumper from mid-range, which is a nice weapon to have.

Zeller's a very good option as a backup center playing 18-25 minutes a night.  Not many teams in the league have a competent backup on that level.  He's one of the guys on the team I hope sticks around long term.  We just need to find a long term solution to start at center and play 28-30 minutes a night.

[number_n9ne]

I'd be pretty excited to watch a line up of:

Smart/Bradley/Crowder/Johnson/Olynyk

I feel like Johnson wasn't used effectively in Toronto because he was put next to a no defense center who clogged the paint. Stick him next to Olynyk and he gets a no defense center who shoots from the arc! Boom, everyone is happy.

[Celtics4ever]

He definitely needs to be a high post center not a back to basket type.  His passing and shooting are better for a high post guy.

[Evantime34]

I agree with the above -- even if Kelly can be valuable as a center, I think he's got two better, more reliable players at center ahead of him on the depth chart.

Zeller may not be as exciting as Kelly or Sullinger can be, but he provides efficient scoring and adequate defense.  He fills an important offensive role as the agile role man who can catch and finish, plus he has a solid spot up jumper from mid-range, which is a nice weapon to have.

Zeller's a very good option as a backup center playing 18-25 minutes a night.  Not many teams in the league have a competent backup on that level.  He's one of the guys on the team I hope sticks around long term.  We just need to find a long term solution to start at center and play 28-30 minutes a night.

I think Kelly is a better option at the 5 than Zeller. Lineups with Olynyk at the 5 outperformed those with Zeller at the 5. This was due to the fact that Kelly spreads the floor, so even if he is not scoring he is dragging a defender out of the paint who could prevent someone else from scoring.

That and a solid steal rate are two of the big reasons Olynyk put up great advanced numbers last year.

If it was up to me Zeller would be the 5th big (or the big that was dealt). With his inability to stretch the floor or create offense for himself I think he is the least valuable of the big men.