Bird vs. LeBron, Part Deux

[ahonui06]

Moranis -

I just believe Bird is a better basketball player than LeBron. He wasn't blessed with freak athleticism like LeBron, but still managed to put up monster stats because of his BBIQ and other intangibles.

If I were to start a franchise I would take Bird over LeBron. He is a leader, winner, plays with passion and is big time in big games.

Seems kind of silly to bring up numbers if you're going to backpedal to intangibles once those numbers are given context.

There's nothing wrong with picking Bird over LeBron in a vacuum, of course, as long as you acknowledge that it isn't born out by anything other than preference.

Well it is preference and the fact that Bird actually does have better numbers than LeBron considering USG% and their physical features. Bird slightly edges him in both categories.

Bird averaged a double-double for his career including his injury riddled seasons near the end. LeBron hasn't even averaged a double-double for a season.

[D.o.s.]

So if you look at the numbers (based on your subjective criteria of what two players in different eras, playing very different games "should be" putting up) Bird is better.

I got it.

[ahonui06]

So if you look at the numbers (based on your subjective criteria of what two players in different eras, playing very different games "should be" putting up) Bird is better.

I got it.

Same game with a different emphasis. Bird's stats edge out LeBron. Even more impressive considering Bird's limited athleticism.

[D.o.s.]

Don't you see what you're doing, though?

Again, I have no problem with preferring James to Bird, in fact I agree with that, but to argue numbers with those sort of qualifiers is silly, particularly when you're bailing on defending them.

[ahonui06]

Don't you see what you're doing, though?

Again, I have no problem with preferring James to Bird, in fact I agree with that, but to argue numbers with those sort of qualifiers is silly, particularly when you're bailing on defending them.

What qualifiers are you talking about? I'm just stating their basic stats.

Bird RS with 24-10-6 on 49-38-89 and 56 TS% and 27 USG%
Bird PS with 24-10-7 on 47-32-89 and 55 TS% and 25 USG%

LeBron RS with 27-7-7 on 50-34-75 and 58 TS% and 32 USG%
LeBron PS with 28-9-7 on 47-32-75 and 57 TS% and 32 USG%

Obviously this takes into account Bird's injury plagued years while LeBron is at his prime. LeBron's numbers will most likely decline as he ages as well.

[D.o.s.]

What qualifiers are you talking about?

He wasn't blessed with freak athleticism like LeBron, but still managed to put up monster stats because of his BBIQ and other intangibles.

Bird actually does have better numbers than LeBron considering USG% and their physical features.

Even more impressive considering Bird's limited athleticism.

Bird averaged a double-double for his career including his injury riddled seasons near the end.

Obviously this takes into account Bird's injury plagued years while LeBron is at his prime.

Those are all qualifiers.

Also, based on some cursory research, here's how they compare through their first 12 seasons:
http://bkref.com/tiny/G4oMF

Am I right in assuming that you're using BKR as well?

[ahonui06]

What qualifiers are you talking about?

He wasn't blessed with freak athleticism like LeBron, but still managed to put up monster stats because of his BBIQ and other intangibles.

Bird actually does have better numbers than LeBron considering USG% and their physical features.

Even more impressive considering Bird's limited athleticism.

Bird averaged a double-double for his career including his injury riddled seasons near the end.

Obviously this takes into account Bird's injury plagued years while LeBron is at his prime.

Those are all qualifiers.

Also, based on some cursory research, here's how they compare through their first 12 seasons:
http://bkref.com/tiny/G4oMF

Am I right in assuming that you're using BKR as well?

Definitely. Basketball-Reference is the best site out there.

[BballTim]

Moranis -

I just believe Bird is a better basketball player than LeBron. He wasn't blessed with freak athleticism like LeBron, but still managed to put up monster stats because of his BBIQ and other intangibles.

If I were to start a franchise I would take Bird over LeBron. He is a leader, winner, plays with passion and is big time in big games.

Seems kind of silly to bring up numbers if you're going to backpedal to intangibles once those numbers are given context.

There's nothing wrong with picking Bird over LeBron in a vacuum, of course, as long as you acknowledge that it isn't born out by anything other than preference.

  When you compare numbers, though, it's worth pointing out that Bird could have easily put up better numbers than he did, in fact he demonstrated the point on various occasions. I agree it's a matter of preference, though, choosing whether you prefer amazing skill/bbiq or transcendent size/athleticism.

[Who]

I prefer Bird. He was a better team player.

LeBron is more like Jordan. He can make his teammates better but only on his own terms. They have to fall in line and learn how to play off of them. Bird was better at allowing and putting his teammates in a position to show off their full range of talents. Unlike LeBron who suffocated Chris Bosh's & Kevin Love's games and forced D-Wade and K-Irving into major adjustments to learn how to function well alongside him.

[Big333223]

This being a Celtic fan board, the conclusion of this debate is obvious. And I agree with that conclusion. I think Bird was the better player. But only by a slight margin (I'd rank Bird #2 all time and Lebron #5-7 depending on my mood) and some of the arguments against James either stopped being true a while ago or where never true.

The lack of clutch was always an overblown narrative that hasn't been true for a long time. Not just because of his time in Miami, he almost singlehandedly defeated Detroit in the '07 playoffs including coming up big over and over again in crunch time. Then in '09 he had that incredible series against Orlando in a losing effort.

When talking about team success, it's important to note a couple of things. Not just the disparity in talent around the two (Bird never played on a team with less than 2 all-star caliber teammates, albeit in a league with fewer teams) but also the coaching. Bird entered the league the year Bill Fitch took over the team and he was eventually replaced by KC Jones, the perfect coach for Bird and the veteran team around him. Lebron's first coach was Paul Silas and Silas was replaced with Mike Brown, who's lack of ability as a coach was hidden by James' ability to do it all.

What might the first half of Lebron's career have looked like if he had a stable coach and a couple of good veterans to learn from? There's no way to know for sure but we can safely say that Bird had it a little easier coming into the league from that perspective. As far as I'm concerned, the level of success that those Cleveland teams did enjoy in spite of the roster around James is as great a testament to his talent as you can make.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Funny how something as insignificant as a spinal cord can get in the way of a GOAT discussion.

[BballTim]

Funny how something as insignificant as a spinal cord can get in the way of a GOAT discussion.

  Yeah, that's why I generally rate Bird as the best player, although other players (due to longevity) had better careers.

[crimson_stallion]

There are really only two categories I can see in which Lebron has beaten Bird for his career and they are PPG (+12%) and Free Throw Rate (+100%). 

Bird on the other hand has beat Lebron in rebounding (+40%), three point percentage (+3.5%) and FT% (+14%). 

So since Bird has won three categories to Lebron's one, I would give Bird the winner of the "tangibles / stats" category.

As far as intangibles go, there is no competition.  Bird was tougher, had higher basketball IQ (IMO), was more clutch, was a better leader, and was an absolute master of the mental game (i.e. taking opponents mind out of their game and letting them beat themselves).

There are going to be valid arguments to be made in both directions, but here is the thing that seals the deal to me - Bird did EVERYTHING well.  He had no weakness in his game.  He could score from anywhere on the court, he could rebound at an elite level, he could pass at an elite level, he could defend at an elite level (and did, consistently), he had leadership, he had toughness, and he is one of the greatest pure shooters to ever live

Lebron is great scorer but isn't as skilled a scorer - he's merely above average (rather than great) as a shooter and rebounder, he lacks toughness and leadership, and his defensive effort is too inconsistent.

If I'm building a team today with the choice of 30 year old bird or 30 year old Lebron (assuming both healthy) I'll take bird without a moment hesitation. 

[crimson_stallion]

What might the first half of Lebron's career have looked like if he had a stable coach and a couple of good veterans to learn from? There's no way to know for sure but we can safely say that Bird had it a little easier coming into the league from that perspective. As far as I'm concerned, the level of success that those Cleveland teams did enjoy in spite of the roster around James is as great a testament to his talent as you can make.

People always say this, but I don't get it.

His 2009-10 team was pretty darn stacked for that point in time, remembering that this was before the whole "superfriend" era began, and few teams at the time (outside of Boston and LA) had more than one legit star player.

People forget that:

* Antawn Jamison was an 20/9 player for much of his career (he was basically on par with Chris Bosh, if not better)

* Mo Williams was an 18 PPG player just one year prior

* The four-man rotation of Shaq, Ilgauskas, Varejao and Hickson was quite possible the deepest front-court in the entire NBA

* Delonte West and Daniel Gibson were both very solid backup guards

I mean sure his roster may not have been as top heavy as a Ray/Pierce/KG/Rondo or Kobe/Gasol/Bynym but he still had quite a bit of help. 

[Moranis]

There are really only two categories I can see in which Lebron has beaten Bird for his career and they are PPG (+12%) and Free Throw Rate (+100%). 

Bird on the other hand has beat Lebron in rebounding (+40%), three point percentage (+3.5%) and FT% (+14%). 

So since Bird has won three categories to Lebron's one, I would give Bird the winner of the "tangibles / stats" category.

As far as intangibles go, there is no competition.  Bird was tougher, had higher basketball IQ (IMO), was more clutch, was a better leader, and was an absolute master of the mental game (i.e. taking opponents mind out of their game and letting them beat themselves).

There are going to be valid arguments to be made in both directions, but here is the thing that seals the deal to me - Bird did EVERYTHING well.  He had no weakness in his game.  He could score from anywhere on the court, he could rebound at an elite level, he could pass at an elite level, he could defend at an elite level (and did, consistently), he had leadership, he had toughness, and he is one of the greatest pure shooters to ever live

Lebron is great scorer but isn't as skilled a scorer - he's merely above average (rather than great) as a shooter and rebounder, he lacks toughness and leadership, and his defensive effort is too inconsistent.

If I'm building a team today with the choice of 30 year old bird or 30 year old Lebron (assuming both healthy) I'll take bird without a moment hesitation.

What about assists?  What about TS%  what about PER?  When you just pick and choose categories you can get whatever result you want.