Trade with Knicks idea for Winslow

[mmmmm]

I think your latter trade is more realistic than the first that you started with.

But I still would say that's a lot to give up to get Winslow.

I would rather spend a more modest package to get the #6 or #8 and take Stanley Johnson instead.

I.E., modifying your last proposal:

Piston's get:  Sullly (or Olynyk), Young, 33rd
Boston gets: 8th

Boston uses 8th to pick Stanley Johnson and then BPA at 16th, 28th & 45th

I like Winslow, but I feel his value is being over-inflated by his tournament run.

I see Johnson as having just as much upside on both ends of the floor as Winslow and he's already a more versatile scorer.   If there is a gap, it's too small, imho, to justify the extra cost to move all the way up into the top 5.

[Tr1boy]

I think your latter trade is more realistic than the first that you started with.

But I still would say that's a lot to give up to get Winslow.

I would rather spend a more modest package to get the #6 or #8 and take Stanley Johnson instead.

I.E., modifying your last proposal:

Piston's get:  Sullly (or Olynyk), Young, 33rd
Boston gets: 8th

Boston uses 8th to pick Stanley Johnson and then BPA at 16th, 28th & 45th

I like Winslow, but I feel his value is being over-inflated by his tournament run.

I see Johnson as having just as much upside on both ends of the floor as Winslow and he's already a more versatile scorer.   If there is a gap, it's too small, imho, to justify the extra cost to move all the way up into the top 5.

Winslow vs johnson

Winslow won a championship. He was clutch when Duke needed someone to step up (like vs wisc when duke looked dead in the water with okafor in foul trouble). On the other hand Johnson could not do the same for Arizona

Winslow is a better athlete, better leaper (which is big to survive in the nba ). Johnson is not that much stronger from what i saw. Winslow gets the edge on defense. 

Johnson is a decent prospect but i worry about his ability to finiah near the basket. His shooting is only ok. We basically have a Johnson in Crowder.

Winslow on the other hand is a more explosive, skilled Crowder.

[SHAQATTACK]

Winslow would be a great fit under CBS. Near perfect fit. And he is a clutch player as we saw his impact during the tourney.  Underrated jump shot that becomes more accurate in the late stages of the game.

Trade idea

To Knicks: Sullinger , Young, 16th, 45th
To Celtics: 4th, Calderon

4th pick: Winslow. 

28th pick: Mickey
33rd pick: Christmas

Potential 4th quarter defensive lineup
Mickey
Crowder
Winslow
Smart
AB

I think that any hope of a trade for the 4th pick would have to include Smart and both 16 and 28.  I don't think that we're the right trade partner.

I do really like Smart. But i would trade smart ,16 and 33 for winslow

Me too..!    I n this draft he is only guy I think I trade Smart to get.  It would really sting ......ouch .

Aldridge , Winslow,  IT and a better center than Zeller would put a heavy Burden on Bron.

[PhoSita]

I like Winslow, but I feel his value is being over-inflated by his tournament run.

I think you're right.

Winslow is probably the best out of the 3-4 top wing prospects (JW, Johnson, Oubre, and Dekker), but it's entirely possible one of those other 3 ends up a better overall player.  Wouldn't be a shock at all.  Winslow is just a safer pick than any of them.

[mmmmm]

I think your latter trade is more realistic than the first that you started with.

But I still would say that's a lot to give up to get Winslow.

I would rather spend a more modest package to get the #6 or #8 and take Stanley Johnson instead.

I.E., modifying your last proposal:

Piston's get:  Sullly (or Olynyk), Young, 33rd
Boston gets: 8th

Boston uses 8th to pick Stanley Johnson and then BPA at 16th, 28th & 45th

I like Winslow, but I feel his value is being over-inflated by his tournament run.

I see Johnson as having just as much upside on both ends of the floor as Winslow and he's already a more versatile scorer.   If there is a gap, it's too small, imho, to justify the extra cost to move all the way up into the top 5.

Winslow vs johnson

Winslow won a championship. He was clutch when Duke needed someone to step up (like vs wisc when duke looked dead in the water with okafor in foul trouble). On the other hand Johnson could not do the same for Arizona

Winslow is a better athlete, better leaper (which is big to survive in the nba ). Johnson is not that much stronger from what i saw. Winslow gets the edge on defense. 

Johnson is a decent prospect but i worry about his ability to finiah near the basket. His shooting is only ok. We basically have a Johnson in Crowder.

Winslow on the other hand is a more explosive, skilled Crowder.

The fact that "Winslow won a championship" is irrelevant.  That's a team accomplishment.  You have know way of knowing that if Okafor had declared for AZ instead of Duke, that it might have been Johnson taking the clutch shots in a championship run.

Johnson's lack of an impressive vertical is well known and has hampered his ability to finish now and then.  But overall, I feel it is way overblown.  He more than makes up for that with his fantastic lateral movement which is explosive in it's own way.  That's a big reason he's able to get to the hoop at all and also why he is such a good defender of horizontal space.

The word is that Johnson's unimpressive vertical is due to a flaw in his mechanics that trainers feel confident can be corrected.  He's certainly physically strong enough that he should be more explosive vertically so this could be real.   Not sure how much stock to put in that until it is realized.

I am very much NOT concerned about SJ's vertical leap.  Paul Pierce was not considered all that athletic either.  More relevant to me is that he has a wider variety of skills of scoring points, both from outside and inside.  He can score both off the ball and with the ball in his hands.  The latter is something that Winslow has not been good at.

Crowder is a good player, but he represents Johnson's floor, way under his ceiling.

And again, any perceived gap in the value between Winslow and Johnson comes down to personal preference and in no way in my mind does it justify what it looks like to be the big jump in cost necessary to get Winslow.

[Irish Stew]

In a different thread, a number of posters, myself included, believed that fair compensation to get to Detroit at #8 was Olynyk, 16, and 28. I don't think that NY will move out of the top ten, but if they do I think that they need to get at least a potential all-star in return along with our two picks. Only Smart barely fits that criteria. Thomas, Turner, 28, and 2016 Brooklyn pick isn't enough. Guys comparable to Thomas and Turner can be had in free agency and the Brooklyn pick is dependent on what they do in trades and is a full year away. Getting to 4 is going to be really painful and NY may just not be interested anyway in what we have to offer.

If you read the rumor mill as of late ,knicks like Lyles and also Payne.  I bet they rather have a chance to draft these two vs drafting one of Winslow or Mudiay.

They are more than the 4th pick to make the playoffs next season (unless they can bring in key FAs). So far Carroll kind of players are interested in joining, not guys like LA, Love etc.

They need to add players through the draft and or via trade.  Before going into FA.

What about this 3 way trade idea

To Knicks: 8th, 16th
To Pistons: Sully, Young, 33rd
To celtics: 4th

Knicks select : Payne and Lyles
Pistons select: Jarell Martin
Celtics: Winslow, Mickey, 45th(draft and stash)

This is interesting, especially if NY wants both Lyles and Payne. I would think that NY and DET would want a little more. To NY: 8,16,  To DET: Sully,Young,28,45   To BOS: 4 and we take Calderon off their hands.     Detroit could use 45 to move up slightly from 28. We take Winslow and whoever slides to 33, hope to sign Love (unlikely) and sign one of Asik/Koufos/Biyombo or failing on Love, sign both Koufos and Ed Davis. Aldridge and MGasol are not coming here.

[Tr1boy]

I think your latter trade is more realistic than the first that you started with.

But I still would say that's a lot to give up to get Winslow.

I would rather spend a more modest package to get the #6 or #8 and take Stanley Johnson instead.

I.E., modifying your last proposal:

Piston's get:  Sullly (or Olynyk), Young, 33rd
Boston gets: 8th

Boston uses 8th to pick Stanley Johnson and then BPA at 16th, 28th & 45th

I like Winslow, but I feel his value is being over-inflated by his tournament run.

I see Johnson as having just as much upside on both ends of the floor as Winslow and he's already a more versatile scorer.   If there is a gap, it's too small, imho, to justify the extra cost to move all the way up into the top 5.

Winslow vs johnson

Winslow won a championship. He was clutch when Duke needed someone to step up (like vs wisc when duke looked dead in the water with okafor in foul trouble). On the other hand Johnson could not do the same for Arizona

Winslow is a better athlete, better leaper (which is big to survive in the nba ). Johnson is not that much stronger from what i saw. Winslow gets the edge on defense. 

Johnson is a decent prospect but i worry about his ability to finiah near the basket. His shooting is only ok. We basically have a Johnson in Crowder.

Winslow on the other hand is a more explosive, skilled Crowder.

The fact that "Winslow won a championship" is irrelevant.  That's a team accomplishment.  You have know way of knowing that if Okafor had declared for AZ instead of Duke, that it might have been Johnson taking the clutch shots in a championship run.

Johnson's lack of an impressive vertical is well known and has hampered his ability to finish now and then.  But overall, I feel it is way overblown.  He more than makes up for that with his fantastic lateral movement which is explosive in it's own way.  That's a big reason he's able to get to the hoop at all and also why he is such a good defender of horizontal space.

The word is that Johnson's unimpressive vertical is due to a flaw in his mechanics that trainers feel confident can be corrected.  He's certainly physically strong enough that he should be more explosive vertically so this could be real.   Not sure how much stock to put in that until it is realized.

I am very much NOT concerned about SJ's vertical leap.  Paul Pierce was not considered all that athletic either.  More relevant to me is that he has a wider variety of skills of scoring points, both from outside and inside.  He can score both off the ball and with the ball in his hands.  The latter is something that Winslow has not been good at.

Crowder is a good player, but he represents Johnson's floor, way under his ceiling.

And again, any perceived gap in the value between Winslow and Johnson comes down to personal preference and in no way in my mind does it justify what it looks like to be the big jump in cost necessary to get Winslow.

Outside of Okafor and.maybe jones who else worthy can you name from that Duke team??

And yeah maybe Winslow got lucky but , what if  etc. Is irrelevent when you produce results. 

SJ was part of a very good Arizona team also.

Btw Paul Pierce has a 7'0-7'1 wingspan and excellent reach for a sg/sf.  He is also three times the shooter SJ is.

SJ could be decent but dont expect much more imo.

[Tr1boy]

In a different thread, a number of posters, myself included, believed that fair compensation to get to Detroit at #8 was Olynyk, 16, and 28. I don't think that NY will move out of the top ten, but if they do I think that they need to get at least a potential all-star in return along with our two picks. Only Smart barely fits that criteria. Thomas, Turner, 28, and 2016 Brooklyn pick isn't enough. Guys comparable to Thomas and Turner can be had in free agency and the Brooklyn pick is dependent on what they do in trades and is a full year away. Getting to 4 is going to be really painful and NY may just not be interested anyway in what we have to offer.

If you read the rumor mill as of late ,knicks like Lyles and also Payne.  I bet they rather have a chance to draft these two vs drafting one of Winslow or Mudiay.

They are more than the 4th pick to make the playoffs next season (unless they can bring in key FAs). So far Carroll kind of players are interested in joining, not guys like LA, Love etc.

They need to add players through the draft and or via trade.  Before going into FA.

What about this 3 way trade idea

To Knicks: 8th, 16th
To Pistons: Sully, Young, 33rd
To celtics: 4th

Knicks select : Payne and Lyles
Pistons select: Jarell Martin
Celtics: Winslow, Mickey, 45th(draft and stash)

This is interesting, especially if NY wants both Lyles and Payne. I would think that NY and DET would want a little more. To NY: 8,16,  To DET: Sully,Young,28,45   To BOS: 4 and we take Calderon off their hands.     Detroit could use 45 to move up slightly from 28. We take Winslow and whoever slides to 33, hope to sign Love (unlikely) and sign one of Asik/Koufos/Biyombo or failing on Love, sign both Koufos and Ed Davis. Aldridge and MGasol are not coming here.

Good call

I can see this three way trade working out on draft night. But it has to be like a perfect storm

Lyles has to fall and pistons like sully and young over whoever is avail at 8

[mmmmm]

I think your latter trade is more realistic than the first that you started with.

But I still would say that's a lot to give up to get Winslow.

I would rather spend a more modest package to get the #6 or #8 and take Stanley Johnson instead.

I.E., modifying your last proposal:

Piston's get:  Sullly (or Olynyk), Young, 33rd
Boston gets: 8th

Boston uses 8th to pick Stanley Johnson and then BPA at 16th, 28th & 45th

I like Winslow, but I feel his value is being over-inflated by his tournament run.

I see Johnson as having just as much upside on both ends of the floor as Winslow and he's already a more versatile scorer.   If there is a gap, it's too small, imho, to justify the extra cost to move all the way up into the top 5.

Winslow vs johnson

Winslow won a championship. He was clutch when Duke needed someone to step up (like vs wisc when duke looked dead in the water with okafor in foul trouble). On the other hand Johnson could not do the same for Arizona

Winslow is a better athlete, better leaper (which is big to survive in the nba ). Johnson is not that much stronger from what i saw. Winslow gets the edge on defense. 

Johnson is a decent prospect but i worry about his ability to finiah near the basket. His shooting is only ok. We basically have a Johnson in Crowder.

Winslow on the other hand is a more explosive, skilled Crowder.

The fact that "Winslow won a championship" is irrelevant.  That's a team accomplishment.  You have know way of knowing that if Okafor had declared for AZ instead of Duke, that it might have been Johnson taking the clutch shots in a championship run.

Johnson's lack of an impressive vertical is well known and has hampered his ability to finish now and then.  But overall, I feel it is way overblown.  He more than makes up for that with his fantastic lateral movement which is explosive in it's own way.  That's a big reason he's able to get to the hoop at all and also why he is such a good defender of horizontal space.

The word is that Johnson's unimpressive vertical is due to a flaw in his mechanics that trainers feel confident can be corrected.  He's certainly physically strong enough that he should be more explosive vertically so this could be real.   Not sure how much stock to put in that until it is realized.

I am very much NOT concerned about SJ's vertical leap.  Paul Pierce was not considered all that athletic either.  More relevant to me is that he has a wider variety of skills of scoring points, both from outside and inside.  He can score both off the ball and with the ball in his hands.  The latter is something that Winslow has not been good at.

Crowder is a good player, but he represents Johnson's floor, way under his ceiling.

And again, any perceived gap in the value between Winslow and Johnson comes down to personal preference and in no way in my mind does it justify what it looks like to be the big jump in cost necessary to get Winslow.

Outside of Okafor and.maybe jones who else worthy can you name from that Duke team??

And yeah maybe Winslow got lucky but , what if  etc. Is irrelevent when you produce results. 

SJ was part of a very good Arizona team also.

Btw Paul Pierce has a 7'0-7'1 wingspan and excellent reach for a sg/sf.  He is also three times the shooter SJ is.

SJ could be decent but dont expect much more imo.

1) What does wingspan have to do with how 'athletic' a player is?
2) Where are you getting that wingspan measurement for Pierce from?  Link?
3) Paul Pierce IS and definitely HAS been throughout his long, veteran NBA career, a better shooter than SJ WAS through his freshman season.   But as a college freshman, Pierce shot just 41.4% FG%, 30.4 3PT% and 60.5% FT% (He played 25.4 mpg, so he got plenty of run.).   Johnson's corresponding numbers this season were 44.9%, 37.1% and 74.2% (on 28.1 mpg).   

Your opinion that SJ won't be much is noted and fine.   Intangibles and 'eye test' matter.  In the end, the differences become matters of opinion.

But I keep coming back to this:  Any perceived difference in value, if it favors Winslow at all, has to be only slight.  And definitely not worth the cost difference you advocated.

If my choice is to have Johnson and the 16th versus just Winslow?  I'm going to go with Johnson and the 16th.

[mmmmm]

In a different thread, a number of posters, myself included, believed that fair compensation to get to Detroit at #8 was Olynyk, 16, and 28. I don't think that NY will move out of the top ten, but if they do I think that they need to get at least a potential all-star in return along with our two picks. Only Smart barely fits that criteria. Thomas, Turner, 28, and 2016 Brooklyn pick isn't enough. Guys comparable to Thomas and Turner can be had in free agency and the Brooklyn pick is dependent on what they do in trades and is a full year away. Getting to 4 is going to be really painful and NY may just not be interested anyway in what we have to offer.

If you read the rumor mill as of late ,knicks like Lyles and also Payne.  I bet they rather have a chance to draft these two vs drafting one of Winslow or Mudiay.

They are more than the 4th pick to make the playoffs next season (unless they can bring in key FAs). So far Carroll kind of players are interested in joining, not guys like LA, Love etc.

They need to add players through the draft and or via trade.  Before going into FA.

What about this 3 way trade idea

To Knicks: 8th, 16th
To Pistons: Sully, Young, 33rd
To celtics: 4th

Knicks select : Payne and Lyles
Pistons select: Jarell Martin
Celtics: Winslow, Mickey, 45th(draft and stash)

This is interesting, especially if NY wants both Lyles and Payne. I would think that NY and DET would want a little more. To NY: 8,16,  To DET: Sully,Young,28,45   To BOS: 4 and we take Calderon off their hands.     Detroit could use 45 to move up slightly from 28. We take Winslow and whoever slides to 33, hope to sign Love (unlikely) and sign one of Asik/Koufos/Biyombo or failing on Love, sign both Koufos and Ed Davis. Aldridge and MGasol are not coming here.

Good call

I can see this three way trade working out on draft night. But it has to be like a perfect storm

Lyles has to fall and pistons like sully and young over whoever is avail at 8

How do you know Lyles is going to 'fall' at the time of the 4th pick?   The Knicks aren't going to pick Winslow for you if the deal is pending.   Not unless he's the player they want in case the deal falls through.  And if he's the player they want, they aren't trading him.  More likely they trade with someone else where the deal isn't pending.

[P stoff]

I also think Winslow is not much better or worse than Johnson..but if we really want to get a player that is a KNOWN commodity lets just get Middleton or Harris. Its easier to nab a big in the draft if we want to roll the dice on "potential'... 

A guy like WCS or Portis, Lyles, etc would only be complimentary players anyway, and would have less responsibilities than a wing player. We need a wing scorer NOW in my opinion...even more than a big if both are going to be counted on to take us to the next level.

Neither of those players is going to be a #1 or 2 option IMO, and it will take a couple years at least to even crack the rotation.

[mmmmm]

I also think Winslow is not much better or worse than Johnson..but if we really want to get a player that is a KNOWN commodity lets just get Middleton or Harris. Its easier to nab a big in the draft if we want to roll the dice on "potential'... 

A guy like WCS or Portis, Lyles, etc would only be complimentary players anyway, and would have less responsibilities than a wing player. We need a wing scorer NOW in my opinion...even more than a big if both are going to be counted on to take us to the next level.

Neither of those players is going to be a #1 or 2 option IMO, and it will take a couple years at least to even crack the rotation.

I tend to agree although I would prefer a more creative scorer than Middleton.  He is an excellent player, for certain - very good defender and very good outside shooter.  But he never gets to the free throw line.

Tobias Harris is a little more interesting because of this than Middleton, but I'm not sure what his upside is.

This is one of the reasons I'm interested in Johnson.  He has demonstrated an ability to create points in a variety of ways (including getting to the FT line) and seems to have that 'alpha dog' mentality.

But yeah, if we could get "that guy" as an established vet, all things being equal I too would prefer that.
 

[tarheelsxxiii]

I always find that a good way to gauge the likelihood that another team finds our assets intriguing enough to consider us a trading partner. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I genuinely don't think this offer would be taken seriously for a NY second. Others around the league don't seem to covet our players the way we sometimes think they may.