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The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« on: May 11, 2015, 09:17:20 AM »

Offline CFAN38

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Da has done a good job in the last two season bringing in young players on early carreer down turns and allowing BS to build them back up. First came J Crawford and this past season it was E Turner. I have an idea for the next player to bring in to see if BS can revive him and get him back on his once promising track.

That player is Derrick Williams. The reasons to stay away are obvious.

He has no position
He is a below average defender
He isn't terribly efficient on offense
Doesn't rebound at the level he should

However if he can be had for cheap enough I think he is worth a shot. Bass, Jerebko and Crowder are all FAs. I expect the market to be strong for Crowder and drive his price up. Why not take a cheaper higher ceiling option and give Williams a shot as the bench 4/3. He is as physically talented a player as anyone the Cs have had in recent years. He has been able to put up points in the NBA and finished the last month of this season averaging 17pts in 28mpg. At only 23 there is still alot of room for him to develop and I think BS is his best shot at hitting anywhere near his ceiling.

This signing would obviously be a secondary move to the Cs bigger FA signings. If the Cs sign T Harris then they have no place for Williams but if they signed Middleton he would be a great option.   
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Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2015, 09:33:59 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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Da has done a good job in the last two season bringing in young players on early carreer down turns and allowing BS to build them back up. First came J Crawford and this past season it was E Turner. I have an idea for the next player to bring in to see if BS can revive him and get him back on his once promising track.

That player is Derrick Williams. The reasons to stay away are obvious.

He has no position
He is a below average defender
He isn't terribly efficient on offense
Doesn't rebound at the level he should

However if he can be had for cheap enough I think he is worth a shot. Bass, Jerebko and Crowder are all FAs. I expect the market to be strong for Crowder and drive his price up. Why not take a cheaper higher ceiling option and give Williams a shot as the bench 4/3. He is as physically talented a player as anyone the Cs have had in recent years. He has been able to put up points in the NBA and finished the last month of this season averaging 17pts in 28mpg. At only 23 there is still alot of room for him to develop and I think BS is his best shot at hitting anywhere near his ceiling.

This signing would obviously be a secondary move to the Cs bigger FA signings. If the Cs sign T Harris then they have no place for Williams but if they signed Middleton he would be a great option.   

I would definitely take a flier on him.

Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2015, 09:48:55 AM »

Offline saltlover

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The thing is we wil have to use cap space to get Williams, whereas Crowder will only take up $1.1 mil of cap before he's signed to a new contract.  So while Williams may be cheaper than Crowder, he will take up more cap room this year.

Sure, if Crowder gets signed to such a large deal the C's don't want to match for multiple years, I guess he's a name to look at.  But I don't really see that happening (and the Celtics should actually try to front load Crowder's contract if possible).

Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2015, 10:38:42 AM »

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Not interested in Derrick Williams as a rotation player. Happy to take him on a minimum as a third stringer not expecting to play regular minutes.

The PF position is already clogged enough with young talent in Olynyk and Sullinger. I think Williams has been more of a PF than a SF so I am not overly enthusiastic about signing him to be a full time SF --- why I consider him a third stringer PF/SF here in Boston.

Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2015, 10:59:20 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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As our current roster is constructed I don't see a fit for Williams.

However, I expect us to make a trade to consolidate the roster (a 2 or 3 for 1) at which point a player who can play multiple positions, is athletic and has never lived up to his potential due to playing on poor franchises would be a good gamble.

In college Williams was a great rebounder and 3 point shooter, suddenly when he got to the NBA he could no longer do those things.
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Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2015, 12:01:01 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Pass, please no!

Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2015, 12:39:23 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Pass, please no!
would you be able to expand on this opinion? williams was the second choice in the draft, was he not? he has physical ability, something lacking on the celtics. so far CBS has done wonders with crawford and turner.

why is it not worth the effort or gamble for williams? is there something that makes him an impossible reclamation project? is he a knucklehead? vin baker II?

this is a real question. i would like to learn more.
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Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2015, 12:47:43 PM »

Offline CelticGuardian

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Pass, please no!
would you be able to expand on this opinion? williams was the second choice in the draft, was he not? he has physical ability, something lacking on the celtics. so far CBS has done wonders with crawford and turner.

why is it not worth the effort or gamble for williams? is there something that makes him an impossible reclamation project? is he a knucklehead? vin baker II?

this is a real question. i would like to learn more.

Don't get us wrong, Stevens could most definitely get this guy to put in some work. But even then I believe we should look to improve over this season, adding another guy just to see if he coud turn out to be a contributor is risking a roster spot to someone more proven.

Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2015, 01:10:06 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Pass, please no!
would you be able to expand on this opinion? williams was the second choice in the draft, was he not? he has physical ability, something lacking on the celtics. so far CBS has done wonders with crawford and turner.

why is it not worth the effort or gamble for williams? is there something that makes him an impossible reclamation project? is he a knucklehead? vin baker II?

this is a real question. i would like to learn more.

Don't get us wrong, Stevens could most definitely get this guy to put in some work. But even then I believe we should look to improve over this season, adding another guy just to see if he coud turn out to be a contributor is risking a roster spot to someone more proven.
i see, but have a different opinion. it is one roster spot, hopefully with a low salary. low risk with a possible high upside is how i see it.

crawford netted the celtics a couple of 2nd round picks. turner is a reasonably priced player, and ainge may turn him into something as well.

given that the celitcs are going anywhere in the next 1-2 years of the rebuilt, why not gamble on him?
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2015, 01:16:48 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
williams was the second choice in the draft, was he not? he has physical ability, something lacking on the celtics. so far CBS has done wonders with crawford and turner.

He is a tweener, PF skillset in a SF body.

Quote
Way too many Minnesota possessions ended with Williams catching the ball after one action, holding it 20 feet from the hoop with a dozen or more ticks left on the shot clock, and then engaging in some very sad series of jab steps and crossover dribbles before launching a horrific step-back jumper. Watching Adelman’s reactions to these shots became the game-within-a-game for League Pass addicts and/or folks who enjoy coaches acting out their misery in hilariously grandiose pouty gestures.

“He has to make better decisions,” Saunders says. “And he has to make quicker decisions.”

Williams has struggled to create anything in Adelman’s system. He’ll occasionally blow by overmatched power forwards on dribble drives and break out a crafty finish,3 but it’s unclear if he can do that against small forwards, and he’s flirting with very bad territory as a non-passer. He dished only 84 assists combined in two seasons, and last season, Williams became only the 12th player in the 3-point era to assist on fewer than 5 percent of his team’s buckets while using up at least 23 percent of Minnesota’s possessions with a shot, turnover, or drawn foul. Most players in this group are low-post finishers; Eddy Curry and Amar’e Stoudemire alone account for seven of the 19 player seasons on the list.

Williams is not a low-post finisher, and we’ve seen almost zero evidence he can work as an effective outside-in creator. There’s nothing wrong with being a stretch power forward off the bench; Harrington became a very effective one in Denver once he learned to either shoot open 3s or drive hard to the rim — and to make the choice right away, decisively.

The downside of playing Williams at power forward: He’s too small, at 6-foot-8 with a 7-1 wingspan, to defend the rim. Williams isn’t really a bad defender; he understands team schemes and help responsibilities, and he’s shown good balance in being able to rush out a shooter, stop on a dime if that shooter pump-fakes, and stay shoulder-to-shoulder with that shooter on a drive to the rim.4 But he has no shot in the post against the league’s back-to-the-basket behemoths, and he provides zero deterrent as a help defender at the basket.

http://grantland.com/features/derrick-williams-jimmer-fredette-more-nba-make-break-players/

When a guy has a career average of 9 PPG he is not playing like a second pick.  He is a career .43% shooter,  he only shoots 31% from the three point line.  For being such a great athlete he averages 4 RPG a game, he is an inefficient scorer.   I would think this, even if he was a the tenth pick.   He does not produce assists or other stats   .06 APG career average. .05 SPG,  .03 BPG all these with a 20 MPG average. His D is average.  He has a few productive games at the end when other teams were tanking.  Who cares if he was the 2nd pick, he does not play like one.  He is a poor shooter outside of 8-10 feet.  Sam Bowie was a higher pick than Jordan and we all know how that went!   

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/6480/derrick-williams

A change of scenery from MIN to SAC didn't salvage him either, if your looking for a bench guy then he is fine.   But he has not demonstrated at the NBA level that he can be an effective starter. Not unless you like a guy shooting in the low 40% and can't shoot well outside of 8 feet.

I think CBS deserves better than these retreads.  We as fans deserve better than this, Ainge said the rebuilding was over.   That means we need to add good talent from this point on.   Not hope that a bust turns his career around here.

Read this

http://isportsweb.com/2014/02/24/derrick-williams-struggles-pros/

One year later, same old Derrick.  He is 23, but he lacks a position and his shooting range is limited.   That played well in the NCAA as he is a good athlete but a lot of pros are good athletes.


Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2015, 01:27:15 PM »

Offline CelticGuardian

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Pass, please no!
would you be able to expand on this opinion? williams was the second choice in the draft, was he not? he has physical ability, something lacking on the celtics. so far CBS has done wonders with crawford and turner.

why is it not worth the effort or gamble for williams? is there something that makes him an impossible reclamation project? is he a knucklehead? vin baker II?

this is a real question. i would like to learn more.

Don't get us wrong, Stevens could most definitely get this guy to put in some work. But even then I believe we should look to improve over this season, adding another guy just to see if he coud turn out to be a contributor is risking a roster spot to someone more proven.
i see, but have a different opinion. it is one roster spot, hopefully with a low salary. low risk with a possible high upside is how i see it.

crawford netted the celtics a couple of 2nd round picks. turner is a reasonably priced player, and ainge may turn him into something as well.

given that the celitcs are going anywhere in the next 1-2 years of the rebuilt, why not gamble on him?

This can be said for a lot of players in the NBA, I think one guy was here making a case for Alexis Ajinca, who I feel might be a better fit than Favors. I wouldn't count the Celtics out of contention as Danny is trying to upgrade the talent here which is evident by the DMC and Ty Lawson rumors. I do think that Favors needs somebody like Stevens in his career just to sit him down and collectively assess him as a player.

Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2015, 02:42:01 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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Quote
williams was the second choice in the draft, was he not? he has physical ability, something lacking on the celtics. so far CBS has done wonders with crawford and turner.

He is a tweener, PF skillset in a SF body.

Quote
Way too many Minnesota possessions ended with Williams catching the ball after one action, holding it 20 feet from the hoop with a dozen or more ticks left on the shot clock, and then engaging in some very sad series of jab steps and crossover dribbles before launching a horrific step-back jumper. Watching Adelman’s reactions to these shots became the game-within-a-game for League Pass addicts and/or folks who enjoy coaches acting out their misery in hilariously grandiose pouty gestures.

“He has to make better decisions,” Saunders says. “And he has to make quicker decisions.”

Williams has struggled to create anything in Adelman’s system. He’ll occasionally blow by overmatched power forwards on dribble drives and break out a crafty finish,3 but it’s unclear if he can do that against small forwards, and he’s flirting with very bad territory as a non-passer. He dished only 84 assists combined in two seasons, and last season, Williams became only the 12th player in the 3-point era to assist on fewer than 5 percent of his team’s buckets while using up at least 23 percent of Minnesota’s possessions with a shot, turnover, or drawn foul. Most players in this group are low-post finishers; Eddy Curry and Amar’e Stoudemire alone account for seven of the 19 player seasons on the list.

Williams is not a low-post finisher, and we’ve seen almost zero evidence he can work as an effective outside-in creator. There’s nothing wrong with being a stretch power forward off the bench; Harrington became a very effective one in Denver once he learned to either shoot open 3s or drive hard to the rim — and to make the choice right away, decisively.

The downside of playing Williams at power forward: He’s too small, at 6-foot-8 with a 7-1 wingspan, to defend the rim. Williams isn’t really a bad defender; he understands team schemes and help responsibilities, and he’s shown good balance in being able to rush out a shooter, stop on a dime if that shooter pump-fakes, and stay shoulder-to-shoulder with that shooter on a drive to the rim.4 But he has no shot in the post against the league’s back-to-the-basket behemoths, and he provides zero deterrent as a help defender at the basket.

http://grantland.com/features/derrick-williams-jimmer-fredette-more-nba-make-break-players/

When a guy has a career average of 9 PPG he is not playing like a second pick.  He is a career .43% shooter,  he only shoots 31% from the three point line.  For being such a great athlete he averages 4 RPG a game, he is an inefficient scorer.   I would think this, even if he was a the tenth pick.   He does not produce assists or other stats   .06 APG career average. .05 SPG,  .03 BPG all these with a 20 MPG average. His D is average.  He has a few productive games at the end when other teams were tanking.  Who cares if he was the 2nd pick, he does not play like one.  He is a poor shooter outside of 8-10 feet.  Sam Bowie was a higher pick than Jordan and we all know how that went!   

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/6480/derrick-williams

A change of scenery from MIN to SAC didn't salvage him either, if your looking for a bench guy then he is fine.   But he has not demonstrated at the NBA level that he can be an effective starter. Not unless you like a guy shooting in the low 40% and can't shoot well outside of 8 feet.

I think CBS deserves better than these retreads.  We as fans deserve better than this, Ainge said the rebuilding was over.   That means we need to add good talent from this point on.   Not hope that a bust turns his career around here.

Read this

http://isportsweb.com/2014/02/24/derrick-williams-struggles-pros/

One year later, same old Derrick.  He is 23, but he lacks a position and his shooting range is limited.   That played well in the NCAA as he is a good athlete but a lot of pros are good athletes.

I think its less about hoping a bust turns it around here and more about taking a player with potential and developing him.

-He was a bust in Minn

-A role player who showed flashes or promise in Sac

If he joins the Cs for cheap enough with the understanding that his role will be somewhere in the range of 7th-10th man then he is a worth while investment.
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Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2015, 03:02:15 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Nooooooooooooooo...





There are a few that might pan out .l.........like Lopez

I'd take Hibbert on an ET type deal .

Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2015, 03:23:35 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Quote
williams was the second choice in the draft, was he not? he has physical ability, something lacking on the celtics. so far CBS has done wonders with crawford and turner.

He is a tweener, PF skillset in a SF body.

Quote
Way too many Minnesota possessions ended with Williams catching the ball after one action, holding it 20 feet from the hoop with a dozen or more ticks left on the shot clock, and then engaging in some very sad series of jab steps and crossover dribbles before launching a horrific step-back jumper. Watching Adelman’s reactions to these shots became the game-within-a-game for League Pass addicts and/or folks who enjoy coaches acting out their misery in hilariously grandiose pouty gestures.

“He has to make better decisions,” Saunders says. “And he has to make quicker decisions.”

Williams has struggled to create anything in Adelman’s system. He’ll occasionally blow by overmatched power forwards on dribble drives and break out a crafty finish,3 but it’s unclear if he can do that against small forwards, and he’s flirting with very bad territory as a non-passer. He dished only 84 assists combined in two seasons, and last season, Williams became only the 12th player in the 3-point era to assist on fewer than 5 percent of his team’s buckets while using up at least 23 percent of Minnesota’s possessions with a shot, turnover, or drawn foul. Most players in this group are low-post finishers; Eddy Curry and Amar’e Stoudemire alone account for seven of the 19 player seasons on the list.

Williams is not a low-post finisher, and we’ve seen almost zero evidence he can work as an effective outside-in creator. There’s nothing wrong with being a stretch power forward off the bench; Harrington became a very effective one in Denver once he learned to either shoot open 3s or drive hard to the rim — and to make the choice right away, decisively.

The downside of playing Williams at power forward: He’s too small, at 6-foot-8 with a 7-1 wingspan, to defend the rim. Williams isn’t really a bad defender; he understands team schemes and help responsibilities, and he’s shown good balance in being able to rush out a shooter, stop on a dime if that shooter pump-fakes, and stay shoulder-to-shoulder with that shooter on a drive to the rim.4 But he has no shot in the post against the league’s back-to-the-basket behemoths, and he provides zero deterrent as a help defender at the basket.

http://grantland.com/features/derrick-williams-jimmer-fredette-more-nba-make-break-players/

When a guy has a career average of 9 PPG he is not playing like a second pick.  He is a career .43% shooter,  he only shoots 31% from the three point line.  For being such a great athlete he averages 4 RPG a game, he is an inefficient scorer.   I would think this, even if he was a the tenth pick.   He does not produce assists or other stats   .06 APG career average. .05 SPG,  .03 BPG all these with a 20 MPG average. His D is average.  He has a few productive games at the end when other teams were tanking.  Who cares if he was the 2nd pick, he does not play like one.  He is a poor shooter outside of 8-10 feet.  Sam Bowie was a higher pick than Jordan and we all know how that went!   

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/6480/derrick-williams

A change of scenery from MIN to SAC didn't salvage him either, if your looking for a bench guy then he is fine.   But he has not demonstrated at the NBA level that he can be an effective starter. Not unless you like a guy shooting in the low 40% and can't shoot well outside of 8 feet.

I think CBS deserves better than these retreads.  We as fans deserve better than this, Ainge said the rebuilding was over.   That means we need to add good talent from this point on.   Not hope that a bust turns his career around here.

Read this

http://isportsweb.com/2014/02/24/derrick-williams-struggles-pros/

One year later, same old Derrick.  He is 23, but he lacks a position and his shooting range is limited.   That played well in the NCAA as he is a good athlete but a lot of pros are good athletes.
thanks. a tp for providing all the info above. it was very helpful.
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Re: The Celtics next reclamation project (idea)
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2015, 03:27:26 PM »

Offline FreddieJ

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The problem is he has no "heart", motor, passion for the game, and that can't be taught