Targets: Al Jefferson, Paul Millsap, Wesley Matthews, DAnny Green, Gerald Green

[LooseCannon]

Paul Millsap:

What Celtics hope Sullinger will be.  An undersized, yet consistent force.  Can give you 16/7+/3 and hit 3's at 35%.  Is he worth a mid-tier max? Probably.  But is Millsap the player you want to spend your cap space on.  In my opinion he a very good complimentary piece and not a #1 player.  Pass if requires max ($18-19M) or near max.

Good player, but a fairly marginal upgrade but again on the wrong side of 30. Any player who is over 30 is nothing more than a fill-in. By the time this team is ready to compete, older guys will be dead weight.

Lamarcus Aldridge is five months younger than Millsap and will be 30 when the season starts.  Marc Gasol is two weeks older than Millsap.  I place Millsap on the same tier as those players.  Signing any of those guys probably leaves the Celtics one high quality role-playing starter away from being a legitimate contender.

Would you say no to Gasol or Aldridge because of their age?

False equivalence. Gasol and Aldridge are better players, bigger players and play a position that's in much greater need.

Milsap is a 6'8" PF who averages 17/8. He's a minor upgrade from Sully, who is about the same size.

Gasol is a 7'1" C who averages 17/8. He's a huge upgrade from Zeller and is a significantly better defensive player.

Aldridge is a 6'11" F/C who averages 23/10. Milsap couldn't hold his jockstrap and is a huge upgrade at either PF or C.

I don't see Milsap as a game changer nor is he in the same class as the other two - talent-wise or position of need.

I absolutely disagree.  Millsap is a better player than Aldridge, although I think it is close enough that I wouldn't blame someone for thinking Aldridge is slightly better.  The GMs who think that Aldridge is much better than Millsap are the GMs who Ainge should be targeting for trades because they are the ones who will overvalue the wrong players. 

Millsap is the better defender and passer.  He has a varied offense, being capable of scoring in the post or from the perimeter.  As power forwards go, he is one of the best fits out there for the Celtics under Stevens, both in skill set and in attitude/approach to the game.

[Who]

I prefer Aldridge over Millsap as a player but I think Millsap is the better PF. I do not consider Aldridge an out and out PF. I think he is a PF/C. A combo. I prefer Aldridge's versatility and capacity to play both big man positions over Millsap's superiority at the PF position.

I prefer Millsap's quickness over Aldridge's size at PF. I think Millsap's quickness and superior ball-handling allows him to create advantages for his team in more situations (mostly away from the basket) than Aldridge's size does (mostly inside the paint).

I am disappointed Portland do not use Aldridge at center anymore. I think he is a very tough matchup at that center position. Especially now with a player like Lillard who can combine with him there. Wasted opportunity.

[JHTruth]

Paul Millsap:

What Celtics hope Sullinger will be.  An undersized, yet consistent force.  Can give you 16/7+/3 and hit 3's at 35%.  Is he worth a mid-tier max? Probably.  But is Millsap the player you want to spend your cap space on.  In my opinion he a very good complimentary piece and not a #1 player.  Pass if requires max ($18-19M) or near max.

Good player, but a fairly marginal upgrade but again on the wrong side of 30. Any player who is over 30 is nothing more than a fill-in. By the time this team is ready to compete, older guys will be dead weight.

Lamarcus Aldridge is five months younger than Millsap and will be 30 when the season starts.  Marc Gasol is two weeks older than Millsap.  I place Millsap on the same tier as those players.  Signing any of those guys probably leaves the Celtics one high quality role-playing starter away from being a legitimate contender.

Would you say no to Gasol or Aldridge because of their age?

False equivalence. Gasol and Aldridge are better players, bigger players and play a position that's in much greater need.

Milsap is a 6'8" PF who averages 17/8. He's a minor upgrade from Sully, who is about the same size.

Gasol is a 7'1" C who averages 17/8. He's a huge upgrade from Zeller and is a significantly better defensive player.

Aldridge is a 6'11" F/C who averages 23/10. Milsap couldn't hold his jockstrap and is a huge upgrade at either PF or C.

I don't see Milsap as a game changer nor is he in the same class as the other two - talent-wise or position of need.

I absolutely disagree.  Millsap is a better player than Aldridge, although I think it is close enough that I wouldn't blame someone for thinking Aldridge is slightly better.  The GMs who think that Aldridge is much better than Millsap are the GMs who Ainge should be targeting for trades because they are the ones who will overvalue the wrong players. 

Millsap is the better defender and passer.  He has a varied offense, being capable of scoring in the post or from the perimeter.  As power forwards go, he is one of the best fits out there for the Celtics under Stevens, both in skill set and in attitude/approach to the game.

Wow, did someone just argue Milsap was better than Aldridge? Really?

[LooseCannon]

Paul Millsap:

What Celtics hope Sullinger will be.  An undersized, yet consistent force.  Can give you 16/7+/3 and hit 3's at 35%.  Is he worth a mid-tier max? Probably.  But is Millsap the player you want to spend your cap space on.  In my opinion he a very good complimentary piece and not a #1 player.  Pass if requires max ($18-19M) or near max.

Good player, but a fairly marginal upgrade but again on the wrong side of 30. Any player who is over 30 is nothing more than a fill-in. By the time this team is ready to compete, older guys will be dead weight.

Lamarcus Aldridge is five months younger than Millsap and will be 30 when the season starts.  Marc Gasol is two weeks older than Millsap.  I place Millsap on the same tier as those players.  Signing any of those guys probably leaves the Celtics one high quality role-playing starter away from being a legitimate contender.

Would you say no to Gasol or Aldridge because of their age?

False equivalence. Gasol and Aldridge are better players, bigger players and play a position that's in much greater need.

Milsap is a 6'8" PF who averages 17/8. He's a minor upgrade from Sully, who is about the same size.

Gasol is a 7'1" C who averages 17/8. He's a huge upgrade from Zeller and is a significantly better defensive player.

Aldridge is a 6'11" F/C who averages 23/10. Milsap couldn't hold his jockstrap and is a huge upgrade at either PF or C.

I don't see Milsap as a game changer nor is he in the same class as the other two - talent-wise or position of need.

I absolutely disagree.  Millsap is a better player than Aldridge, although I think it is close enough that I wouldn't blame someone for thinking Aldridge is slightly better.  The GMs who think that Aldridge is much better than Millsap are the GMs who Ainge should be targeting for trades because they are the ones who will overvalue the wrong players. 

Millsap is the better defender and passer.  He has a varied offense, being capable of scoring in the post or from the perimeter.  As power forwards go, he is one of the best fits out there for the Celtics under Stevens, both in skill set and in attitude/approach to the game.

Wow, did someone just argue Milsap was better than Aldridge? Really?

I make a lot of arguments for different evaluations of players.  I thought Millsap was much better than Al Jefferson in Utah.  I thought Avery Bradley was a better choice than Lance Stephenson last summer.  I think Omer Asik is better target than Deandre Jordan this summer.  Kawhi Leonard is easily the best player of the 2011 draft class, not Kyrie Irving.

[prov1ml34]

Ok, someone tell me this.... Why would Gerald Green have been in the pro shop at halftime of game 3? Does he still have a residence in the Boston area?

[Celtics4ever]

Great post until this:

Gerald Green:

Another wing with size that hits the 3PT at a good rate, not as good the D Green or W Matthews. Weak rebounder and passer, but then again also cheaper. Probably can be had for MLE value.

it invalidates everyone above it, or what was a good post.

[Celts Fan 508]

Paul Millsap:

What Celtics hope Sullinger will be.  An undersized, yet consistent force.  Can give you 16/7+/3 and hit 3's at 35%.  Is he worth a mid-tier max? Probably.  But is Millsap the player you want to spend your cap space on.  In my opinion he a very good complimentary piece and not a #1 player.  Pass if requires max ($18-19M) or near max.

Good player, but a fairly marginal upgrade but again on the wrong side of 30. Any player who is over 30 is nothing more than a fill-in. By the time this team is ready to compete, older guys will be dead weight.

Lamarcus Aldridge is five months younger than Millsap and will be 30 when the season starts.  Marc Gasol is two weeks older than Millsap.  I place Millsap on the same tier as those players.  Signing any of those guys probably leaves the Celtics one high quality role-playing starter away from being a legitimate contender.

Would you say no to Gasol or Aldridge because of their age?

False equivalence. Gasol and Aldridge are better players, bigger players and play a position that's in much greater need.

Milsap is a 6'8" PF who averages 17/8. He's a minor upgrade from Sully, who is about the same size.

Gasol is a 7'1" C who averages 17/8. He's a huge upgrade from Zeller and is a significantly better defensive player.

Aldridge is a 6'11" F/C who averages 23/10. Milsap couldn't hold his jockstrap and is a huge upgrade at either PF or C.

I don't see Milsap as a game changer nor is he in the same class as the other two - talent-wise or position of need.

I absolutely disagree.  Millsap is a better player than Aldridge, although I think it is close enough that I wouldn't blame someone for thinking Aldridge is slightly better.  The GMs who think that Aldridge is much better than Millsap are the GMs who Ainge should be targeting for trades because they are the ones who will overvalue the wrong players. 

Millsap is the better defender and passer.  He has a varied offense, being capable of scoring in the post or from the perimeter.  As power forwards go, he is one of the best fits out there for the Celtics under Stevens, both in skill set and in attitude/approach to the game.

Wow, did someone just argue Milsap was better than Aldridge? Really?

I agree with Loose Cannon, Millsap is better than Aldridge.  Better defender, better passer, has more range, is a better fit for the Celtics than Aldridge.  Give me Millsap and Robin Lopez or Asik and draft a high quality wing player and another guard and I would be thrilled with the offseason. 

[gpap]

Would love to have Millsap, Wes Matthews or Danny Green.

[Granath]

Paul Millsap:

What Celtics hope Sullinger will be.  An undersized, yet consistent force.  Can give you 16/7+/3 and hit 3's at 35%.  Is he worth a mid-tier max? Probably.  But is Millsap the player you want to spend your cap space on.  In my opinion he a very good complimentary piece and not a #1 player.  Pass if requires max ($18-19M) or near max.

Good player, but a fairly marginal upgrade but again on the wrong side of 30. Any player who is over 30 is nothing more than a fill-in. By the time this team is ready to compete, older guys will be dead weight.

Lamarcus Aldridge is five months younger than Millsap and will be 30 when the season starts.  Marc Gasol is two weeks older than Millsap.  I place Millsap on the same tier as those players.  Signing any of those guys probably leaves the Celtics one high quality role-playing starter away from being a legitimate contender.

Would you say no to Gasol or Aldridge because of their age?

False equivalence. Gasol and Aldridge are better players, bigger players and play a position that's in much greater need.

Milsap is a 6'8" PF who averages 17/8. He's a minor upgrade from Sully, who is about the same size.

Gasol is a 7'1" C who averages 17/8. He's a huge upgrade from Zeller and is a significantly better defensive player.

Aldridge is a 6'11" F/C who averages 23/10. Milsap couldn't hold his jockstrap and is a huge upgrade at either PF or C.

I don't see Milsap as a game changer nor is he in the same class as the other two - talent-wise or position of need.

I absolutely disagree.  Millsap is a better player than Aldridge, although I think it is close enough that I wouldn't blame someone for thinking Aldridge is slightly better.  The GMs who think that Aldridge is much better than Millsap are the GMs who Ainge should be targeting for trades because they are the ones who will overvalue the wrong players. 

Millsap is the better defender and passer.  He has a varied offense, being capable of scoring in the post or from the perimeter.  As power forwards go, he is one of the best fits out there for the Celtics under Stevens, both in skill set and in attitude/approach to the game.

Of course you disagree. You're the one who brought up the comparison. I disagree with your assertion.

But here's the rub. Most people when asked to name the best players on the Celtics have IT, Smart and Sullinger at the top of the list. Maybe Sully is top 3, maybe he's top 4 - but he's up there. He's also on a cheap rookie contract and has shown improvement. Sure he has flaws with his conditioning and he's been injured, but he has shown some starting-level ability and he's only 23. He and Milsap play the exact same position - one makes the other redundant. So to get Milsap, you are giving up on your 3rd or 4th best player at age 23.

And what does that get you? No doubt Milsap is a better player, but how much better will a 30 year old Milsap be than Sully already is? Do you want to close the door on Sullinger, considering he's now doing the right things to try to get in shape and improve his game before you have a chance to see how that pans out? As you yourself said, "What Celtics hope Sullinger will be." That word isn't in past tense. There's actually a fair chance that in 2 or 3 years Sullinger is the better player than a declining Milsap.

Now take Aldridge. Whether or not he's better than Milsap is something we don't agree on. However, we both agree he would be a MASSIVE improvement over our current Centers - a position Sully and Milsap simply can not play. Our best Center put up 10/6 this year. Put in Aldridge and you're doubling both points and rebounds and he's at least as good on defense.

Are you doubling both points and rebounds by replacing Sullinger with Milsap?

Milsap averaged 4 more points per game than Sullinger with the same rebounds. Aldrige averaged 12/5 more than Zeller. Do you really think that Milsap's defensive prowess and passing - no matter how good - is going to make up for an 8 point, 5 rebound differential? Is Milsap the interior go-to 4th quarter scorer this team so desperately needs?

We're talking bang for the buck here and Aldridge gives you far better bang for the buck than Milsap, simply on the basis of who they would replace in the starting lineup. The same goes for Gasol. Personnel choices are not made in a vacuum. It's all about the way to best improve the team - replacing your weakest link. That link right now is a Center, so if you have a chance to massively improve that position, you take it and don't look back.

[Endless Paradise]

Aldridge isn't coming to Boston to play center, so that's a moot point. He's made it very clear that he's much more comfortable as a power forward.

[AngryAndIrritable]

Matthews would be a great upgrade on Avery Bradley. Tall for his position, hits the 3 at a good rate and can defend a bit as well.

[Granath]

Aldridge isn't coming to Boston to play center, so that's a moot point. He's made it very clear that he's much more comfortable as a power forward.

I don't think any of them would come to Boston. Given their respective ages, most players of that age want to play for a contender while they are still effective if all things are equal. Boston is a couple of years away from that. That's why I think our best chance is with the younger crowd - Middleton, Harris, Monroe - who still have plenty of time and can look at the longer-term picture.

[D.o.s.]

Aldridge isn't coming to Boston to play center, so that's a moot point. He's made it very clear that he's much more comfortable as a power forward.

This is an underrepresented point in the ongoing discussion.

Also, as much as I love shipping the Trail Blazers east, why are we leaving Lillard and Batum out? No love for Robin Lopez? Can't we just buy their starting five and bring them here (we'd have a seriously great bench if we did)

[Endless Paradise]

Aldridge isn't coming to Boston to play center, so that's a moot point. He's made it very clear that he's much more comfortable as a power forward.

I don't think any of them would come to Boston. Given their respective ages, most players of that age want to play for a contender while they are still effective if all things are equal. Boston is a couple of years away from that. That's why I think our best chance is with the younger crowd - Middleton, Harris, Monroe - who still have plenty of time and can look at the longer-term picture.

Yeah, I agree entirely. If Aldridge (or Millsap, or Gasol) leave their respective teams, I think they latch onto another vet-laden contender.

Also, as much as I love shipping the Trail Blazers east, why are we leaving Lillard and Batum out?

Depends on how good you think Batum is. He's coming off a really lackluster season that could potentially see him shipped out of Portland depending on what happens with Aldridge.

[LooseCannon]

Paul Millsap:

What Celtics hope Sullinger will be.  An undersized, yet consistent force.  Can give you 16/7+/3 and hit 3's at 35%.  Is he worth a mid-tier max? Probably.  But is Millsap the player you want to spend your cap space on.  In my opinion he a very good complimentary piece and not a #1 player.  Pass if requires max ($18-19M) or near max.

Good player, but a fairly marginal upgrade but again on the wrong side of 30. Any player who is over 30 is nothing more than a fill-in. By the time this team is ready to compete, older guys will be dead weight.

Lamarcus Aldridge is five months younger than Millsap and will be 30 when the season starts.  Marc Gasol is two weeks older than Millsap.  I place Millsap on the same tier as those players.  Signing any of those guys probably leaves the Celtics one high quality role-playing starter away from being a legitimate contender.

Would you say no to Gasol or Aldridge because of their age?

False equivalence. Gasol and Aldridge are better players, bigger players and play a position that's in much greater need.

Milsap is a 6'8" PF who averages 17/8. He's a minor upgrade from Sully, who is about the same size.

Gasol is a 7'1" C who averages 17/8. He's a huge upgrade from Zeller and is a significantly better defensive player.

Aldridge is a 6'11" F/C who averages 23/10. Milsap couldn't hold his jockstrap and is a huge upgrade at either PF or C.

I don't see Milsap as a game changer nor is he in the same class as the other two - talent-wise or position of need.

I absolutely disagree.  Millsap is a better player than Aldridge, although I think it is close enough that I wouldn't blame someone for thinking Aldridge is slightly better.  The GMs who think that Aldridge is much better than Millsap are the GMs who Ainge should be targeting for trades because they are the ones who will overvalue the wrong players. 

Millsap is the better defender and passer.  He has a varied offense, being capable of scoring in the post or from the perimeter.  As power forwards go, he is one of the best fits out there for the Celtics under Stevens, both in skill set and in attitude/approach to the game.

Of course you disagree. You're the one who brought up the comparison. I disagree with your assertion.

But here's the rub. Most people when asked to name the best players on the Celtics have IT, Smart and Sullinger at the top of the list. Maybe Sully is top 3, maybe he's top 4 - but he's up there. He's also on a cheap rookie contract and has shown improvement. Sure he has flaws with his conditioning and he's been injured, but he has shown some starting-level ability and he's only 23. He and Milsap play the exact same position - one makes the other redundant. So to get Milsap, you are giving up on your 3rd or 4th best player at age 23.

And what does that get you? No doubt Milsap is a better player, but how much better will a 30 year old Milsap be than Sully already is? Do you want to close the door on Sullinger, considering he's now doing the right things to try to get in shape and improve his game before you have a chance to see how that pans out? As you yourself said, "What Celtics hope Sullinger will be." That word isn't in past tense. There's actually a fair chance that in 2 or 3 years Sullinger is the better player than a declining Milsap.

Now take Aldridge. Whether or not he's better than Milsap is something we don't agree on. However, we both agree he would be a MASSIVE improvement over our current Centers - a position Sully and Milsap simply can not play. Our best Center put up 10/6 this year. Put in Aldridge and you're doubling both points and rebounds and he's at least as good on defense.

Are you doubling both points and rebounds by replacing Sullinger with Milsap?

Milsap averaged 4 more points per game than Sullinger with the same rebounds. Aldrige averaged 12/5 more than Zeller. Do you really think that Milsap's defensive prowess and passing - no matter how good - is going to make up for an 8 point, 5 rebound differential? Is Milsap the interior go-to 4th quarter scorer this team so desperately needs?

We're talking bang for the buck here and Aldridge gives you far better bang for the buck than Milsap, simply on the basis of who they would replace in the starting lineup. The same goes for Gasol. Personnel choices are not made in a vacuum. It's all about the way to best improve the team - replacing your weakest link. That link right now is a Center, so if you have a chance to massively improve that position, you take it and don't look back.

I think that using points and rebounds per game as your main comparisons is the sort of superficial thinking that an analytics-based approach scoffs at.

I also have a heavy skepticism towards Sullinger because I don't trust what's in his head.  I see him as the sort of player who is a huge risk to get it together for one season then get fat and lazy once he gets a big contract.