Was this playoff appearance worth it?

[celticsclay]

Ask 2013 Philly how much their success in the 2012 playoffs mattered.  A year after upsetting the #1 seed Bulls and taking the Celtics to 7 games, their lack of talent landed them right back in the lotto where they belonged.

It might have mattered if they had passed on the Bynum deal, kept Iguodala, and moved forward with the Holiday, Turner, Iggy, Young core.

Not saying they'd have been better off long term, but you're ignoring the fact that they made a gamble that failed miserably and then chose to bottom out quite deliberately in light of that.

if it it doesn't fit the narrative you can't discuss it!

[PhoSita]

Ask 2013 Philly how much their success in the 2012 playoffs mattered.  A year after upsetting the #1 seed Bulls and taking the Celtics to 7 games, their lack of talent landed them right back in the lotto where they belonged.

It might have mattered if they had passed on the Bynum deal, kept Iguodala, and moved forward with the Holiday, Turner, Iggy, Young core.

Not saying they'd have been better off long term, but you're ignoring the fact that they made a gamble that failed miserably and then chose to bottom out quite deliberately in light of that.

if it it doesn't fit the narrative you can't discuss it!

Going further, imagine if they had traded Young and then signed Millsap instead of Atlanta, and made a move to take Asik from Houston this past summer.

Holiday - Turner - Iggy - Millsap - Asik


That team could have competed with Toronto to win the division.  Not an implausible scenario.

[Fafnir]

I have enjoyed the playoffs and the late season win streak ...

But I would have enjoyed getting a young prospect via the lottery and watching him play here over the next 5+ years even more.

Yeah I think either scenario has some good upside. I'd prefer another high level prospect too, but the good news is either way I think the C's are well setup for the future.

Its nice to have some fun basketball to watch compared to last year and the early parts of this year of poor play.

The high of making the playoffs will be over Sunday with the realization that we simply didn't belong.  Soon, nobody will remember that Boston even made it.  You'll have several weeks of relevant teams playing in games that matter.   You'll watch the excitement over the lotto balls next month, but you'll be on the outside looking in while comparable teams to ours take steps forward.  Come draft time, when prospect hype is at it's apex and you begin to understand how good some of these kids can be... you'll be envious, angry and depressed.  You're not going to enjoy picking #16 and watching Philly land another superstar prospect.  We'll just be another 32-45 win team filled with role players and teams like that will have a clear path towards real NBA success.   

Always ready to tell others how they're going to feel, put up a massive wall of text, and be vague enough to always post an I told you so no matter what happens.

[Evantime34]

Ask 2013 Philly how much their success in the 2012 playoffs mattered.  A year after upsetting the #1 seed Bulls and taking the Celtics to 7 games, their lack of talent landed them right back in the lotto where they belonged.

It might have mattered if they had passed on the Bynum deal, kept Iguodala, and moved forward with the Holiday, Turner, Iggy, Young core.

Not saying they'd have been better off long term, but you're ignoring the fact that they made a gamble that failed miserably and then chose to bottom out quite deliberately in light of that.

if it it doesn't fit the narrative you can't discuss it!

Going further, imagine if they had traded Young and then signed Millsap instead of Atlanta, and made a move to take Asik from Houston this past summer.

Holiday - Turner - Iggy - Millsap - Asik


That team could have competed with Toronto to win the division.  Not an implausible scenario.

Or if Bynum had never gotten hurt. He was a top 3 center in the NBA the season before the trade.

[csfansince60s]

The thing I'm confused about with this debate is if we were to not make the playoffs how would we have gone about that? Would people have rather the C's started Young, Pressey, Gigi, Wallace and Jerebko for the last 5 games to openly tank? Would you have rather they kept Rondo and then not got the picks? Would you rather we not have traded for Thomas?

It's easy to answer the question would you rather have had a higher pick or a lower one and made the playoffs. The question I want answered is if you would have preferred they not make the playoffs what would you have liked the C's to have done differently?

The resentment, at least for me in reaching the playoffs, has more to do with Cs bad luck in the guise of "good" luck.

No Paul George, no Chris Bosh, sometimes no Dirty Wade, no Big Al, the Nets underachieving terribly and having a very tough schedule at the end,  us playing the Cavs at the very end of the season in 2 meaningless games for them when they were resting for the playoffs and rolled over for us, etc., etc., etc... We got in, not JUST because we played so well the last half of the season, but because the Nets, cHeat, Pacers and Hornets sucked so badly.

Where was that "luck" or anything like it from 2010-2013 when we really needed it?

I agree that we should not have done anything to overtly lose games. I agree that DA had to take IT when he was basically "given" to him for free as well as JJ and Gigi (funny, Prince won us games too, for the brief time that he was here).

What I don't agree with is the Polly-annish sentiments around here that the future of the franchise is better off by making and getting our arses kicked in the playoffs. And possibly even de-value our players' value by being so outclassed talent-wise in these playoffs, so that all our players' flaws are exposed and magnified, all at the expense of a more valued and versatile pick at 10 for a REAL crapshoot at 16.

10 (with a small chance of better due to lottery luck)  is better and a FAR more valuable asset than 16, despite what all the spin doctors around here say or how they want to characterize it.

If I had my druthers, we would've fought like hell, increased the value of our players in so doing, as we did, and just missed getting in and got the 10th pick. I didn't want us to lose, I just wanted the other teams to do better.

That's why to me it's not black and white, i.e tank completely or don't tank. Wanting the team fighting like crazy and not wanting them to make the playoffs is not tanking. It's pragmatic rooting. Willing to give up something short-term for a chance at something better. Just a chance.

[PhoSita]

The thing I'm confused about with this debate is if we were to not make the playoffs how would we have gone about that? Would people have rather the C's started Young, Pressey, Gigi, Wallace and Jerebko for the last 5 games to openly tank? Would you have rather they kept Rondo and then not got the picks? Would you rather we not have traded for Thomas?

It's easy to answer the question would you rather have had a higher pick or a lower one and made the playoffs. The question I want answered is if you would have preferred they not make the playoffs what would you have liked the C's to have done differently?

The resentment, at least for me in reaching the playoffs, has more to do with Cs bad luck in the guise of "good" luck.

No Paul George, no Chris Bosh, sometimes no Dirty Wade, no Big Al, the Nets underachieving terribly and having a very tough schedule at the end,  us playing the Cavs at the very end of the season in 2 meaningless games for them when they were resting for the playoffs and rolled over for us, etc., etc., etc... We got in, not JUST because we played so well the last half of the season, but because the Nets, cHeat, Pacers and Hornets sucked so badly.

Where was that "luck" or anything like it from 2010-2013 when we really needed it?

I agree that we should not have done anything to overtly lose games. I agree that DA had to take IT when he was basically "given" to him for free as well as JJ and Gigi (funny, Prince won us games too, for the brief time that he was here).

What I don't agree with is the Polly-annish sentiments around here that the future of the franchise is better off by making and getting our arses kicked in the playoffs. And possibly even de-value our players' value by being so outclassed talent-wise in these playoffs, so that all our players' flaws are exposed and magnified, all at the expense of a more valued and versatile pick at 10 for a REAL crapshoot at 16.

10 (with a small chance of better due to lottery luck)  is better and a FAR more valuable asset than 16, despite what all the spin doctors around here say or how they want to characterize it.

If I had my druthers, we would've fought like hell, increased the value of our players in so doing, as we did, and just missed getting in and got the 10th pick. I didn't want us to lose, I just wanted the other teams to do better.

That's why to me it's not black and white, i.e tank completely or don't tank. Wanting the team fighting like crazy and not wanting them to make the playoffs is not tanking. It's pragmatic rooting. Willing to give up something short-term for a chance at something better. Just a chance.

Really nice post. 

It's not black and white, tank or fight for the middle, regardless of how things are so often characterized on these boards.

[danglertx]

Your assumption that pick 10 is a far more valuable asset than pick 16 is just ridiculous.  It is six picks better sure, but I would say the chances of getting a star at 10 or 16 is just about the same, slim.

The chance of a free agent or disgruntled veteran being willing to consider coming to a playoff team over a non playoff team makes up the difference of six picks in my opinion.  After the top couple guys in every draft you are just picking guys you think might improve enough to be rotational guys. 

[Fafnir]

Your assumption that pick 10 is a far more valuable asset than pick 16 is just ridiculous.   It is six picks better sure, but I would say the chances of getting a star at 10 or 16 is just about the same, slim.

The chance of a free agent or disgruntled veteran being willing to consider coming to a playoff team over a non playoff team makes up the difference of six picks in my opinion.   After the top couple guys in every draft you are just picking guys you think might improve enough to be rotational guys.

Consider how different one highlighted statement is from the other before you resort to calling someone else's point of view "ridiculous".

[LooseCannon]

The delicious tears of the tankers has made this playoff run quite worth it.  It will be even more fun if the Pacers hit a miracle ping pong ball for a top three pick.

[KeepRondo]

Your assumption that pick 10 is a far more valuable asset than pick 16 is just ridiculous.  It is six picks better sure, but I would say the chances of getting a star at 10 or 16 is just about the same, slim.

The chance of a free agent or disgruntled veteran being willing to consider coming to a playoff team over a non playoff team makes up the difference of six picks in my opinion.  After the top couple guys in every draft you are just picking guys you think might improve enough to be rotational guys.

There is a big difference from pick 10 to 16 in this draft. Perhaps in other drafts, the drop off was less, but if you look at the specific draft, instead of generalizing it as just another draft, then you could see the chances are far greater at landing a high impact player this year at pick 10 then pick 16.

[celticsclay]

I have enjoyed the playoffs and the late season win streak ...

But I would have enjoyed getting a young prospect via the lottery and watching him play here over the next 5+ years even more.

Yeah I think either scenario has some good upside. I'd prefer another high level prospect too, but the good news is either way I think the C's are well setup for the future.

Its nice to have some fun basketball to watch compared to last year and the early parts of this year of poor play.

The high of making the playoffs will be over Sunday with the realization that we simply didn't belong.  Soon, nobody will remember that Boston even made it.  You'll have several weeks of relevant teams playing in games that matter.   You'll watch the excitement over the lotto balls next month, but you'll be on the outside looking in while comparable teams to ours take steps forward.  Come draft time, when prospect hype is at it's apex and you begin to understand how good some of these kids can be... you'll be envious, angry and depressed.  You're not going to enjoy picking #16 and watching Philly land another superstar prospect.  We'll just be another 32-45 win team filled with role players and teams like that will have a clear path towards real NBA success.   

Always ready to tell others how they're going to feel, put up a massive wall of text, and be vague enough to always post an I told you so no matter what happens.

+1000 tommy point

This is why things are really bad... if you recall  i was one of the few posters that said [insert mention of player and their value/skill/future]. At the time people acted like I was crazy. Now I think it is pretty clear [follow up commenting that shows previous assessment was actually spot on]. So in the end, I really wish [comment related to point in first bracket]. I hope Ainge can somehow pull some magic, but it doesn't seem likely. It looks like we are moving forward with a defensive role player like smart and little else. I really wish we had been able to trade for Noel or Embiid because they are truly elite. Heck even Jordan Clarkson looks like a real player. Wash rinse repeat.

[colincb]

The thing I'm confused about with this debate is if we were to not make the playoffs how would we have gone about that? Would people have rather the C's started Young, Pressey, Gigi, Wallace and Jerebko for the last 5 games to openly tank? Would you have rather they kept Rondo and then not got the picks? Would you rather we not have traded for Thomas?

It's easy to answer the question would you rather have had a higher pick or a lower one and made the playoffs. The question I want answered is if you would have preferred they not make the playoffs what would you have liked the C's to have done differently?

The resentment, at least for me in reaching the playoffs, has more to do with Cs bad luck in the guise of "good" luck.

No Paul George, no Chris Bosh, sometimes no Dirty Wade, no Big Al, the Nets underachieving terribly and having a very tough schedule at the end,  us playing the Cavs at the very end of the season in 2 meaningless games for them when they were resting for the playoffs and rolled over for us, etc., etc., etc... We got in, not JUST because we played so well the last half of the season, but because the Nets, cHeat, Pacers and Hornets sucked so badly.

Where was that "luck" or anything like it from 2010-2013 when we really needed it?

I agree that we should not have done anything to overtly lose games. I agree that DA had to take IT when he was basically "given" to him for free as well as JJ and Gigi (funny, Prince won us games too, for the brief time that he was here).

What I don't agree with is the Polly-annish sentiments around here that the future of the franchise is better off by making and getting our arses kicked in the playoffs. And possibly even de-value our players' value by being so outclassed talent-wise in these playoffs, so that all our players' flaws are exposed and magnified, all at the expense of a more valued and versatile pick at 10 for a REAL crapshoot at 16.

10 (with a small chance of better due to lottery luck)  is better and a FAR more valuable asset than 16, despite what all the spin doctors around here say or how they want to characterize it.

If I had my druthers, we would've fought like hell, increased the value of our players in so doing, as we did, and just missed getting in and got the 10th pick. I didn't want us to lose, I just wanted the other teams to do better.

That's why to me it's not black and white, i.e tank completely or don't tank. Wanting the team fighting like crazy and not wanting them to make the playoffs is not tanking. It's pragmatic rooting. Willing to give up something short-term for a chance at something better. Just a chance.

A lot of anxiety about a 10th pick.  We have too many picks as it is, so we'll trade up, have our cake, and eat it too.

[celts55]

Yes

[Evantime34]

Your assumption that pick 10 is a far more valuable asset than pick 16 is just ridiculous.  It is six picks better sure, but I would say the chances of getting a star at 10 or 16 is just about the same, slim.

In terms of the difference in 10 to 16 in terms of getting a star, historically speaking it is about a coin flip as to which spot is more likely to yield a star.

However, the difference in value for trading up is great. It is much easier to trade up to the 6th pick using the 10th pick than the 16th pick. If the end goal is to trade up as high as you can then the 10th pick is a lot more valuable.

That isn't to say I would undo the deals we made to get us to the playoffs in order to get the 10th pick.

In the end if we see someone who we think can be a star in the 6-10 range then we have more than enough assets to get up there.

[KeepRondo]

The thing I'm confused about with this debate is if we were to not make the playoffs how would we have gone about that? Would people have rather the C's started Young, Pressey, Gigi, Wallace and Jerebko for the last 5 games to openly tank? Would you have rather they kept Rondo and then not got the picks? Would you rather we not have traded for Thomas?

It's easy to answer the question would you rather have had a higher pick or a lower one and made the playoffs. The question I want answered is if you would have preferred they not make the playoffs what would you have liked the C's to have done differently?

The resentment, at least for me in reaching the playoffs, has more to do with Cs bad luck in the guise of "good" luck.

No Paul George, no Chris Bosh, sometimes no Dirty Wade, no Big Al, the Nets underachieving terribly and having a very tough schedule at the end,  us playing the Cavs at the very end of the season in 2 meaningless games for them when they were resting for the playoffs and rolled over for us, etc., etc., etc... We got in, not JUST because we played so well the last half of the season, but because the Nets, cHeat, Pacers and Hornets sucked so badly.

Where was that "luck" or anything like it from 2010-2013 when we really needed it?

I agree that we should not have done anything to overtly lose games. I agree that DA had to take IT when he was basically "given" to him for free as well as JJ and Gigi (funny, Prince won us games too, for the brief time that he was here).

What I don't agree with is the Polly-annish sentiments around here that the future of the franchise is better off by making and getting our arses kicked in the playoffs. And possibly even de-value our players' value by being so outclassed talent-wise in these playoffs, so that all our players' flaws are exposed and magnified, all at the expense of a more valued and versatile pick at 10 for a REAL crapshoot at 16.

10 (with a small chance of better due to lottery luck)  is better and a FAR more valuable asset than 16, despite what all the spin doctors around here say or how they want to characterize it.

If I had my druthers, we would've fought like hell, increased the value of our players in so doing, as we did, and just missed getting in and got the 10th pick. I didn't want us to lose, I just wanted the other teams to do better.

That's why to me it's not black and white, i.e tank completely or don't tank. Wanting the team fighting like crazy and not wanting them to make the playoffs is not tanking. It's pragmatic rooting. Willing to give up something short-term for a chance at something better. Just a chance.

Nice job. Hopefully this well thought out post will stop the heads from spinning around here whenever someone supports the idea that we were better off landing a lottery pick.