Author Topic: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent  (Read 7236 times)

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Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2015, 02:08:46 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Plus think of it this way.

Danny made the decision to tank mid season when he traded Rondo and Green (then, the teams two best players) away.  Pretty much everybody expected this team to finish bottom 6 after those trades happened.

The guys on the roster knew that - they knew their leaders and best players were gone. They knew they suddenly had less talent and star power than ever.  Somehow though, they overcame that by working together as a team.  They refused to give up and die.  By leaning each other and working as finely tuned cogs in a well coordinated machine, they were able to achieve what probably shouldn't have been possible based on their talent level alone.

Through this they all learn a lesson - that many hands make easy work.  That working together unselfishly as a team, you can achieve so much more then you can as an individual.  Those are the type of lessons that will make every single guy on this team a better player and a better teammate, and that will stick for the rest of their careers.  You can't put a value on that type of experience.

In addition to this, they all know that it was Coach Steven's excellent work and persistence that helped them achieve what they did, so now everybody on this team has the greatest respect for a coach who (up until last season) had never spent a single day in the NBA.  Again, this type of respect for your coach is something you can't buy. 

That respect also filters up to management - Danny pulled the strings to assemble this team which (only one season prior) experienced the first year of a rebuild.  He turned this team from playoff team, to an almost complete rebuild, back to a competitive playoff team, all in the space of three seasons.  He did all that without acquiring a single star / superstar caliber player.  That is beyond impressive, it's unheard of.  And it's not like he did it by sacrificing the future - he build this team into a playoff team using almost entirely young prospects, and picked up a plethora of picks and a ton of extra cap space in the process.  If he doesn't get GM of the year it will be insulting.  Again, this all gives your group of guys trust and respect for management staff and the organisation as a whole.

So now, just by making the playoffs (regardless of whether you go deep or get swept in the first round) you have managed to build an incredible level of comradery among your players,  complete respect for your coaching staff and an immense trust in your management/organisation.

Now when this team is recruiting players, all of their existing players will be incredibly eager to tell (anybody who is willing to listen) how rewarding and enjoyable it is to be a Celtic, and they will really believe it. 

These things mean a lot.

If you're a young, highly sought after free agent, looking to sign a long-term contract, what do you look for? 

1) You want a coach who will respect you
2) You want a good group of teammates who are selfless and hard working
3) You want a management and ownership team that know how to build a winner
4) You want to a team that has shown it can be competitive, and is only getting better (hence indicating the potential to be competitive for years to come)

Last year Boston didn't really feel like they had any of those things, and if they were a lottery team this year that impression would have remained.  Now they make the playoffs, and suddenly this team looks like it has all of the above.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 02:32:11 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2015, 02:18:44 AM »

Offline get_banners

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We had very little chance of getting a good lottery pick this year. There are too many teams blatantly tanking (coupled with atrocious talent cough Knicks cough Sixers), along with teams that are absolutely dysfunctional. At best/worst, I could maybe see us being the 8th or 9th worst team. And we know we never win in the lottery. And all that is with Stevens not coaching well, us trying to tank, and the players giving up. None of those things happened, and we actually have been one of the better teams in the league in the 2nd half of the season. But if everything went wrong, I still doubt we could have bottomed out...unless EVERYBODY got injured. I mean, seriously, look at how horrible some of the other teams are.

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2015, 07:21:30 AM »

Offline jmen788

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We had very little chance of getting a good lottery pick this year. There are too many teams blatantly tanking (coupled with atrocious talent cough Knicks cough Sixers), along with teams that are absolutely dysfunctional. At best/worst, I could maybe see us being the 8th or 9th worst team. And we know we never win in the lottery. And all that is with Stevens not coaching well, us trying to tank, and the players giving up. None of those things happened, and we actually have been one of the better teams in the league in the 2nd half of the season. But if everything went wrong, I still doubt we could have bottomed out...unless EVERYBODY got injured. I mean, seriously, look at how horrible some of the other teams are.

But picking 8th or 9th means we could get someone who slides down, like WCS or Stanley Johnson. At pick 16 or 17, it will take too much to move up that high. It is what it is at this point.

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2015, 07:26:20 AM »

Offline cb8883

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Ainge will not get GM of the year for constructing a team with a losing record in the easiest conference. Cavs GM has that on lock

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2015, 01:13:48 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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We had very little chance of getting a good lottery pick this year. There are too many teams blatantly tanking (coupled with atrocious talent cough Knicks cough Sixers), along with teams that are absolutely dysfunctional. At best/worst, I could maybe see us being the 8th or 9th worst team. And we know we never win in the lottery. And all that is with Stevens not coaching well, us trying to tank, and the players giving up. None of those things happened, and we actually have been one of the better teams in the league in the 2nd half of the season. But if everything went wrong, I still doubt we could have bottomed out...unless EVERYBODY got injured. I mean, seriously, look at how horrible some of the other teams are.

But picking 8th or 9th means we could get someone who slides down, like WCS or Stanley Johnson. At pick 16 or 17, it will take too much to move up that high. It is what it is at this point.

And there's no guarantee either of those guys won't be the next big draft busts either. And I wouldn't say it will take too much. There was a great thread the other day about what it'll take for us to move up in the draft, and the truth to that is we may not have to sell the farm to move up 5-8 slots. Between the Jazz, Charlotte, Detroit and Sacramento there's a good chance one of those teams may considering moving back for the right combo of players/picks.

SAC wants to win now, they have a star in place who is clearly losing his patience and waiting 3 years for S.Johnson or someone else to develop into a complimentary piece for DMC may not be a good option in their eyes. KO could really grab Karl's interest, as could Sullinger. We have picks going forward to add to guys those teams want that also have real value. The LAC pick might be in the low 20s, both the PHI picks are like late 1sts, the DAL pick next year could very well be lottery. That's not even considering the almighty BRK picks. Heck, Zach Lowe mentioned a possible summer trade for The C's where they trade Bradley/#15 to the Jazz for #9/Rodney Hood. And he's as plugged in as anyone.

Will it cost us to move up? Sure. But I think that cost is slightly exaggerated around here. And if Ainge thinks Cauley-Stein or Johnson would be a huge difference maker, he has the chips available for such a move.

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2015, 01:14:33 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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Ainge will not get GM of the year for constructing a team with a losing record in the easiest conference. Cavs GM has that on lock

Unfortunately, LeBron isn't eligible for any FO awards.

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2015, 01:43:13 PM »

Offline CelticGuardian

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At picks, 15,16 or 17 there are still some good big men that Stevens can develop into his system.

And we could always trade up, Sullinger is on the hotseat right now. So you never know.

If we end up having to draft in our original position then, I hope we can grab Robert Upshaw at least with the Clippers pick, or in the second round. Idk where he's projected to fall.

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2015, 02:43:30 PM »

Offline erisred

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I don't really care whether we face the Hawks or the Cavs.  I just want to see us stay competitive, a feat which I think is entirely possible.
Same here!

Sure, a top draft pick would have be great, and I'd say Danny set it up where that could have happened, but it didn't. At this point the C's have a terrible lottery pick, or a playoff appearance...given that option, I'll take the playoffs.

The C's earned their shot at the playoffs by playing together, playing hard and just plain not giving up. They aren't backing into the playoffs...if they get there it will be because they played their way in. That's a good thing!

Sure, playing the Hawks would...maybe...be marginally easier than playing the Cavs in the first round, but that's probably not in the cards. So, if the C's get the Cavs, then play the Cavs just as hard as you can and let the chips fall where they may.

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2015, 08:01:30 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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From the start I have definitely been a proponent of trying to get a top 10 pick. Clearly that isn't happening, and even if we miss the playoffs we will have pick 12, so at this point, I do want to make the playoffs, BUT with a caveat...

...specifically, that caveat is that we manipulate things so we play the Hawks in round 1.

That way, we obviously avoid the Cavs in round 1, and wouldn't need to play them until round 3. And the truth is, I think we can beat ANY team in the playoffs OTHER than the Cavs.

The reasoning behind my thought is that one of the arguments against a top 10 pick is that if we make the playoffs and show that we're an up and coming team, that it could attract FAs here (as well as improve our assets and the morale of our own young players).

If that argument is true, it would ONLY BE TRUE if we won a series or two, which I think is possible vs the Hawks. BUT vs the Cavs (who nearly beat us the other night without Irving and resting James and Love for large spurts) we would be swept or if lucky lose in 5, in which case the opposite would happen and instead of being viewed as young and up and coming, we'd be viewed as a team that shouldn't have been there that needs A LOT of work.

What do you guys think... thoughts?

In what universe do we even make the second round, let alone win a game against a team like the Cavs or Hawks?  We'll be lucky to extend either team to 5 games, imo. 

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2015, 08:44:04 PM »

Offline clover

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Bulls up by 7 at the half. I take it Stevens is watching.

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2015, 08:59:58 PM »

Offline albas89

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Bulls up by 7 at the half. I take it Stevens is watching.
If the Bulls win, we're in the playoffs, right??
"Life has so many hurdles. Some of them I've hopped over, some of them I've tripped over. The key is to get back up and finish the race."- Paul Pierce

And he did finish...

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2015, 10:05:15 PM »

Offline clover

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Bulls up by 7 at the half. I take it Stevens is watching.
If the Bulls win, we're in the playoffs, right??

And we're in!

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2015, 07:07:46 AM »

Offline jmen788

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At picks, 15,16 or 17 there are still some good big men that Stevens can develop into his system.

And we could always trade up, Sullinger is on the hotseat right now. So you never know.

If we end up having to draft in our original position then, I hope we can grab Robert Upshaw at least with the Clippers pick, or in the second round. Idk where he's projected to fall.

Sully has NO value right now.. coming off an injury, fat, etc. So we would have to give up Olynyck, who I don't love, but has MUCH MORE PROMISE than Sully. I would give him up if we keep Jerebko if it means getting WCS or Stanley Johnson, but we would have to give up more than just that...

Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2015, 11:36:30 AM »

Offline Joe Green

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I posted an quick statistical analysis of the chances of landing an allstar based on draft position. Please read my post and comment.

The gist of it is - tanking only has merit if you are willing to tank hard for several years straight and are lucky enough to land a 1st position draft, or a bunch of picks in the top 6 range.

The chances of landing an allstar after the 10th spot are very slim, and don't really change until the 2nd round. Since we were not in the worst team competition (that was a Knicks / 76rs two donkey race) I don't see the merit in missing the playoff to bump our chances of an allstar from 4.5% to 5.5%.



Re: Playoff vs. Tanking Debate & 1st Round Opponent
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2015, 11:47:03 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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Right now the biggest asset on this team is the coach. Tanking for the chance at a higher pick might cost you that asset.

Ainge did everything he could to remove everyone from the team that won't be here long term (who could be traded for value).

Had Ainge straight up traded all his assets for very little like the Knicks did this season wouldn't have been enjoyable. As a Celtics fans I want to enjoy the games, if I was a Sixers fan in the time it took them to turn things around, I probably would have lost interest in the team.
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