Enjoy the quick fix. Danny set this franchise back.

[celticsclay]

I agree with your basic premise, OP, that the team would be much better served by missing the playoffs and getting the 10th or so pick vs making the playoffs, getting our aces handed to us in 4 more ultimately meaningless games and getting the 15th or 16th pick for our troubles.

It's a cute story that the little team that could actually made a playoff push and likely made it, but it's an obviously pyhrric victory all day long.  It's like offering a little kid a quarter today vs offering him a dollar tomorrow.  One is obviously the smarter move, but the kid just doesn't care.  He wants what he wants and he wants it now.

The thing is, I think Danny was completely on board with tanking this year, and something changed to make him make the IT trade.  I think the Rondo and Green moves were clearly with an eye toward the future that Danny expected to result in more losses.

This is pure speculation, but I think the thing that changed was Stevens, and whether he was willing to go along for another tanking year.  All the trades pre-trade deadline this year were with an eye toward accepting a lottery year this year.  None of them had to do with improving *this* year.  The IT trade was about improving this year and beyond, and it was a gamble.  I doubt Danny thought that the IT trade would result in as dramatic an improvement as it has.  I think he thought IT would be a good piece (consistent with a constantly upgrading your assets philosophy), but that he would not be good enough to actually get us out of the lottery this year.  He reckoned wrong.

But I'm with you about knowing that a better pick would have put us closer to our next championship more than four more meaningless games.  That's just plain obvious.  That's the quarter to the dollar analogy. Short term, ultimately meaningless gratification vs having a better asset going forward.

As to Philly, there's no way to judge the success of their strategy right now.  One thing I do respect is that they had/have a strategy, and they went all in on it and didn't half ace it.  Whether their strategy is successful or not remains to be seen, but you need stars to be a real championship contender in this league, and the draft is one way to get them.  There are no guarantees with any given strategy.

tp for using the word pyhrric correctly in a cb post. 

If we are going to be fair here, isn't it more like a quarter today instead of 37 cents down the road? People act like we blew out a top 2 pick here. We weren't going to get much higher than about 9 with Stevens coaching. Are we also living in some weird land where we would be the only team that would try to lose to get a higher pick? There are tons of teams doing it.

Edit: Just an illustration of the last point, the news today is that the Kings just shut down Gay and Cousins for the rest of the season (on rotoworld) That is the kind of stuff we would be dealing with trying to get a lottery team and out tank teams. There are currently 7 teams with less than 30 wins. The Pistons have 30. It is hard to be that bad.

[LarBrd33]

Danny: "Over the next two years I'm going to completely turn over the roster, getting rid of every declining veteran and filling the roster with a bunch of 26-and-under prospects. I'm also going to accumulate the biggest stockpile of first round picks in the league. And, I'll do all that while getting us back into the playoffs by the end of that second year."

Fans: "Meh."

Reality is that Danny didn't want this outcome.  If you listened to any interview he gave over the past couple years, he's been pretty straight-forward in his desire to land an impact player or two through the draft.   We got rid of Pierce/KG with hopes of bottoming out in 2013-14.  We waited extra long to bring back Rondo and then found excuses not to play in him back-to-backs (ironically, we were worse in games Rondo played).   We really wanted someone like Wiggins or Parker.   Got unlucky and got the consolation prize of Marcus Smart.

Tried again this year where there were some ideal big men prospects at the top of the draft (Okafor, Townes, etc).   Traded everyone who supposedly was keeping this team mediocre.  Goodbye Rondo.  Goodbye Green.   Took back nothing substantial short-term.   Goal was obviously to bottom out.   Ainge publicly admitted that he saw no purpose in making the playoffs with a below .500 record and then getting thrashed.   Thanks to Brad Stevens and some addition by subtraction, the team greatly overachieved.   That wasn't Danny's intention at all.  He did everything he possibly could to set up a bottom 3 team.  This team is comprised of role players.  There might not be a single player on this roster who would start for a contender.   The plan was to be horrible. 

The only thing you can maybe fault him for is the Thomas trade, but I think that was a big picture trade.  He saw that Thomas could have more trade value than what he gave up... so he jumped at an opportunity to buy low. 

The way this season has played out is going to make Danny's job much harder. I'm sure he's not thrilled about it.  Maybe he can leverage a playoff appearance into a free agent sales pitch, but who knows.  I'm certain Ainge would have preferred to land a top 4 pick this year.

If you are going to say things like Danny is not thrilled about this season, you should probably have some quotes from him to support that. Otherwise you are really just voicing your opinions and pretending they are Danny Ainge's. Now I am not naïve enough to expect Danny Ainge to come out and say making the playoff sucks, but he has actually said their is some value in the playoff push himself:

"It’s very important,” Ainge said. “We always hear about playoff experience. If you haven’t been there and you haven’t gone through this, you have to go through it at some point. It’s critical."

Ainge added, “I love the fact that our guys are preparing. They have something to really go out and play for every night. These last couple of months, you could see in the players. That’s their goal. Nobody thought they could do it. Everybody thought they were a really bad, bad team. They’ve played a lot better the last couple of months. I’ve enjoyed watching the team play. They play with great passion. Brad has done a masterful job of using a lot of players of getting us to where we are where we have a chance.”

I personally was going to be annoyed if we made the playoffs with 32 wins and kept Rondo, Green and Thornton. However, now that we are making it with our young guys leading the way I am very happy. I don't have any reason to believe Danny Ainge does or doesn't have a different sentiment, so I'm not going to pretend I do. Say what you think and feel, but it seem very disingenuous to pretend you know what Danny Ainge feels or thinks especially because his only recent comments air on the side of him being pretty happy.

Ainge isn't going to go out there and say publicly "This sucks... we're screwed", obviously.

AInge will adapt and make the best of any situation he's in.  We set off last Summer to try to land an impact star (Kevin Love) to put next to Rondo.  When that didn't work... it was back to tanking for an impact star.  Now that we've failed to tank to a top pick, Ainge will try to publicly embrace the "winning culture" with hopes he can sell free agents on the team's momentum and coach.   Still, Ainge understand you need stars to win in this league.  Easiest route towards getting one is the draft.  These quotes sum it up:

"It's not my objective to be an eighth seed in the playoffs," Ainge told the Herald. "My objective is to win championships, and we're a long way from that."

"I don't want to see us back into the playoffs with a really bad record and not even have a fighting chance," Ainge said. "If our team can keep getting better by developing, if we can make some deals at the trade deadline that put us in position to actually get into the playoffs and have a chance to win a playoff series, I think that would be a lot of fun."

That's about as transparent as it gets.  He was saying, "No point to a bad playoff appearance... would rather land a star to help win a championship down the road"

I'm looking forward to a possible playoff appearance, but if we make it we'll have a below .500 record and it's pretty clear we will not have a fighting chance.  Pretty confident Ainge would have preferred landing a top 5 pick in this draft than seeing this team make a pointless playoff appearance.   

[Casperian]

It's a cute story that the little team that could actually made a playoff push and likely made it, but it's an obviously pyhrric victory all day long.  It's like offering a little kid a quarter today vs offering him a dollar tomorrow.  One is obviously the smarter move, but the kid just doesn't care.  He wants what he wants and he wants it now.

Someone should make a similar experiment with grown-ups.

Put 20 bucks in front of a grown man, tell him he could have the 20 now, but if he waits 10 minutes, he'll get 40. Most grown-ups will be patient.

10 minutes later you come back, take the 20 dollar and tell him "I lied. Life's not fair, deal with it."

"If our team can keep getting better by developing, if we can make some deals at the trade deadline that put us in position to actually get into the playoffs and have a chance to win a playoff series, I think that would be a lot of fun."

Which is exactly what he did, and goes completely against your little narrative.

Fact is, we didn't trade Bass for a 2nd rounder. We didn't trade Bradley for a late 1st. We gave up a 1st for Isiah Thomas.
Everything else is speculation on your part.

Maybe, just maybe we care more about development than slightly increasing our odds at having a chance. Maybe we just do what we can, see where we end up, and go from there. How about that?

[Mencius]

It's a cute story that the little team that could actually made a playoff push and likely made it, but it's an obviously pyhrric victory all day long.  It's like offering a little kid a quarter today vs offering him a dollar tomorrow.  One is obviously the smarter move, but the kid just doesn't care.  He wants what he wants and he wants it now.

Someone should make a similar experiment with grown-ups.

Put 20 bucks in front of a grown man, tell him he could have the 20 now, but if he waits 10 minutes, he'll get 40. Most grown-ups will be patient.

10 minutes later you come back, take the 20 dollar and tell him "I lied. Life's not fair, deal with it."

Don't get too spergy about the analogy.  Bottom line is that the 10th pick is a better asset than the 15th pick, and getting blown out in the first round doesn't change that.

[Casperian]

It's a cute story that the little team that could actually made a playoff push and likely made it, but it's an obviously pyhrric victory all day long.  It's like offering a little kid a quarter today vs offering him a dollar tomorrow.  One is obviously the smarter move, but the kid just doesn't care.  He wants what he wants and he wants it now.

Someone should make a similar experiment with grown-ups.

Put 20 bucks in front of a grown man, tell him he could have the 20 now, but if he waits 10 minutes, he'll get 40. Most grown-ups will be patient.

10 minutes later you come back, take the 20 dollar and tell him "I lied. Life's not fair, deal with it."

Don't get too spergy about the analogy.  Bottom line is that the 10th pick is a better asset than the 15th pick, and getting blown out in the first round doesn't change that.

Which is pure speculation on your part. Ainge's quote makes it pretty clear he values a playoff appearance.

[guava_wrench]

The sky is falling.

So your solution Tank and more Tank and then lose Tim Duncan to the Spurs bc the ping pong balls do not fall for us?

Sorry, this team is on the road to being a playoff team every season. 

Nobody in this draft is Anthony Davis of Bron Bron so lets stop and be happy that Danny turned nothing into Tyler Zeller, Isiah Thomas, Jerebko and Jae Crowder.

Draft is a crap shoot at best and playoff experience is gold.

Danny set this franchise back, I mean I guess I respect you have your own opinion but explain to me how a team that was in the bottom 5 draft picks at the start of the season and now in the 7th spot in the playoffs is a set back?

I would normally agree with you that NBA drafts are crap shoots but last years and this one does not seem to be. And this one may possibly be deeper. Say what you want about playoff experience, but have some perspective on the actual draft classes instead of labeling them all as crap shoots.

Yeah, like last year. Last year was a strong draft. We tanked. And we have Smart. Whoop-dee-doo.

And if we didn't trade for IT, how many more losses do we have? 4? Remember when IT was hurt? We still played well. We have played well since we dumped Rondo and Green, clear tank moves.

In other words, Ainge did tank moves and ended up improving the team. Addition by subtraction. IT was not the turning point.

And IT is a good asset. He could still be traded for a good asset if needed.

[Mencius]

It's a cute story that the little team that could actually made a playoff push and likely made it, but it's an obviously pyhrric victory all day long.  It's like offering a little kid a quarter today vs offering him a dollar tomorrow.  One is obviously the smarter move, but the kid just doesn't care.  He wants what he wants and he wants it now.

Someone should make a similar experiment with grown-ups.

Put 20 bucks in front of a grown man, tell him he could have the 20 now, but if he waits 10 minutes, he'll get 40. Most grown-ups will be patient.

10 minutes later you come back, take the 20 dollar and tell him "I lied. Life's not fair, deal with it."

Don't get too spergy about the analogy.  Bottom line is that the 10th pick is a better asset than the 15th pick, and getting blown out in the first round doesn't change that.

Which is pure speculation on your part. Ainge's quote makes it pretty clear he values a playoff appearance.

Whatever Ainge professes publicly, he knows that as assets go, the 10th pick is better than the 15th.  We have no shot at winning that first round series.  He knows this.  He'd rather have the 10th pick than the 15th.  The more valuable asset is more important to him than getting blown out in 4 meaningless games despite the pablum he puts out for the masses.

[Casperian]

Whatever Ainge professes publicly, he knows that as assets go, the 10th pick is better than the 15th.  We have no shot at winning that first round series.  He knows this.  He'd rather have the 10th pick than the 15th.  The more valuable asset is more important to him than getting blown out in 4 meaningless games despite the pablum he puts out for the masses.

Again, pure speculation. Can you put a number on the value between the 10th and the 15th pick? Can you put a number on the value of playoff experience? Because if you use the word "value", you have to subtract the second number from the first.

And if we didn't trade for IT, how many more losses do we have? 4? Remember when IT was hurt? We still played well. We have played well since we dumped Rondo and Green, clear tank moves.

In other words, Ainge did tank moves and ended up improving the team. Addition by subtraction. IT was not the turning point.

I don't see how turning two guys who most likely would've left us for nothing into something can be classified as "clear tank moves", especially when those guys were sub-par fits for the coach's system, anyway. I'm not sure that's the definition of "addition by subtraction". It's more "turning lemons into lemonade".

I do agree the acquisition of Thomas was not made with the intention of turning us into a playoff team, neither was trading Rondo a tank move. Those labels would suggest these moves were made with a short-term goal in mind, and I believe Ainge made them with a long-term mindset.

[rondohondo]

It's a cute story that the little team that could actually made a playoff push and likely made it, but it's an obviously pyhrric victory all day long.  It's like offering a little kid a quarter today vs offering him a dollar tomorrow.  One is obviously the smarter move, but the kid just doesn't care.  He wants what he wants and he wants it now.

Someone should make a similar experiment with grown-ups.

Put 20 bucks in front of a grown man, tell him he could have the 20 now, but if he waits 10 minutes, he'll get 40. Most grown-ups will be patient.

10 minutes later you come back, take the 20 dollar and tell him "I lied. Life's not fair, deal with it."

Don't get too spergy about the analogy.  Bottom line is that the 10th pick is a better asset than the 15th pick, and getting blown out in the first round doesn't change that.

Which is pure speculation on your part. Ainge's quote makes it pretty clear he values a playoff appearance.

Whatever Ainge professes publicly, he knows that as assets go, the 10th pick is better than the 15th.  We have no shot at winning that first round series.  He knows this.  He'd rather have the 10th pick than the 15th.  The more valuable asset is more important to him than getting blown out in 4 meaningless games despite the pablum he puts out for the masses.

Ainge can easily trade up to # 10 if he wants to , thats why he collected all those draft picks. He obviously can't use them all due to roster spots . So we can make the playoffs and gets the young guys and Stevens some experience in a 7 game series , and also have that top 10 draft pick .

[Mencius]

Whatever Ainge professes publicly, he knows that as assets go, the 10th pick is better than the 15th.  We have no shot at winning that first round series.  He knows this.  He'd rather have the 10th pick than the 15th.  The more valuable asset is more important to him than getting blown out in 4 meaningless games despite the pablum he puts out for the masses.

Again, pure speculation. Can you put a number on the value between the 10th and the 15th pick? Can you put a number on the value of playoff experience? Because if you use the word "value", you have to subtract the second number from the first.

Saying that the 10th pick is a better asset than the 15th would be speculation only in your mind.  It's pure fact.

As to the value of playoff experience, we're still in the asset acquisition / churning roster phase.  I don't think it matters much with this present bunch, any of whom he'd ship out tomorrow if he could get more valuable assets.

Ainge's method of reaching his ultimate goal is not necessarily Stevens/the players goal.  If making the playoffs each and every year were the goal, he could have kept PP and KG an extra year and merely made the playoffs (at least last year).  I believe that Ainge's personnel moves were to get future assets at the expense of present record, and that he intended to get high lotto talent for two years.  Stevens goal is to win every game with whatever talent Ainge happens to leave him with.  Stevens immediate goal has not been Ainge's immediate goal, and Stevens was so good at coaching an ever changing roster, which, on paper, Ainge decimated multiple times over, that he's now going to make the playoffs.  Good for Stevens, good for the players; not as good for the Celtics/Ainge or this year's draft asset.

Look,it doesn't matter whether you choose to believe that Ainge wants to make the playoffs this year, and that I choose to believe that he'd rather have the 10th pick (with the way he decimated the roster, I believe Ainge was hoping for a top 5 pick).  His actions (trade-wise) indicate that he was going for a dumpster dive this year.  When actions don't align with his words, I believe the actions.

This is really about whether you think 4 playoff games with a roster that is still undergoing roster churn and the 15th pick is better for the team going forward than the 10th pick.  It's that simple really.  I'd prefer the 10th pick.  It is objectively the better asset going forward.

I'd bet anything that more than half the players on this year's team won't be here in two years, so playoff experience for them is of little importance to the Celtics.  We have no franchise guys.  All of them are trade bait.  A higher pick during the first two years of a rebuild is of greater value than playoff experience for a majority of guys who won't be around here when we next truly contend (unless your idea of contention is sneaking into the playoffs with a sub-.500 record).

[CelticSooner]

[Neurotic Guy]

I have been hoping for the lottery all year and am still doing so heading into the last 2 games.  However, in no way do I think Danny has set the franchise back.  I believe he will use his current assets smartly over the next off-season. 

I will feel much better when our most feared player is not 5'9" and when we can say we have a true superstar in the making (or a ready-made one via trade or FA).   As impressed as I am with this team right now, I'd be happier if we were snug in the 8th or 9th lottery position.   But I won't look back once the C's clinch the playoff spot (which I have little doubt they will).   If they get there, I would love to see them give the Cavs or Hawks a good run. 

[esel1000]

4 pages? Guys Cb is the biggest troll on this blog I'm convinced he's a Sixers fan undercover just trying to get Cs fans mad lol

[Boris Badenov]

Danny: "Over the next two years I'm going to completely turn over the roster, getting rid of every declining veteran and filling the roster with a bunch of 26-and-under prospects. I'm also going to accumulate the biggest stockpile of first round picks in the league. And, I'll do all that while getting us back into the playoffs by the end of that second year."

Fans: "Meh."

Reality is that Danny didn't want this outcome...[snip]

You missed my primary point, which is about how fans are reacting to what's happened - not about whether Danny in fact wanted to go this route.

And I think you're taking a glass half-empty view of how things stand going forward. Even if this is Danny's plan B (or C), he's accomplished it in a way that still maximizes our chances of getting the star player he's repeatedly confessed to coveting.

We didn't get back into the 8th seed by overpaying for free agents, squandering our cap room or trading away our picks. We still have those things, and (as you said) our one big acquisition was a player on a bargain contract who probably has more trade value than Rondo or Jeff Green right now.

Put that all together and I think our chances of getting back to true contention by either trading up in the draft, or packaging our assets for a star are still pretty good - about as good as the odds of our getting a superstar player would be if we were sitting in the 4th lottery slot.

Remember, this is how Danny did it last time. He's starting from an inferior position this time (no Paul Pierce), but in other ways has more to work with (picks and cap flexibility).

[CelticSooner]

Danny: "Over the next two years I'm going to completely turn over the roster, getting rid of every declining veteran and filling the roster with a bunch of 26-and-under prospects. I'm also going to accumulate the biggest stockpile of first round picks in the league. And, I'll do all that while getting us back into the playoffs by the end of that second year."

Fans: "Meh."

Reality is that Danny didn't want this outcome.  If you listened to any interview he gave over the past couple years, he's been pretty straight-forward in his desire to land an impact player or two through the draft.   We got rid of Pierce/KG with hopes of bottoming out in 2013-14.  We waited extra long to bring back Rondo and then found excuses not to play in him back-to-backs (ironically, we were worse in games Rondo played).   We really wanted someone like Wiggins or Parker.   Got unlucky and got the consolation prize of Marcus Smart.

Tried again this year where there were some ideal big men prospects at the top of the draft (Okafor, Townes, etc).   Traded everyone who supposedly was keeping this team mediocre.  Goodbye Rondo.  Goodbye Green.   Took back nothing substantial short-term.   Goal was obviously to bottom out.   Ainge publicly admitted that he saw no purpose in making the playoffs with a below .500 record and then getting thrashed.   Thanks to Brad Stevens and some addition by subtraction, the team greatly overachieved.   That wasn't Danny's intention at all.  He did everything he possibly could to set up a bottom 3 team.  This team is comprised of role players.  There might not be a single player on this roster who would start for a contender.   The plan was to be horrible. 

The only thing you can maybe fault him for is the Thomas trade, but I think that was a big picture trade.  He saw that Thomas could have more trade value than what he gave up... so he jumped at an opportunity to buy low. 

The way this season has played out is going to make Danny's job much harder.  I'm sure he's not thrilled about it.  Maybe he can leverage a playoff appearance into a free agent sales pitch, but who knows.  I'm certain Ainge would have preferred to land a top 4 pick this year.

Ainge didn't do anything dramatically different than Philly.  Philly just had the nerve to draft injured players, fill out the roster with d-leaguers and embrace a losing culture for a couple seasons.   I think Brad Stevens was a great hire for us long-term, but I think it had the short-term effect of causing a bit of conflicting agendas.   Stevens wants to win.  Ainge wants to keep Stevens happy.  Ainge wants to lose short-term.  That's a hard thing to balance.  Didn't want to scare off Stevens or create a negative environment.   Philly's managed to keep spirits up in spite of the losses, because they run that team like a basketball camp for developing kids.  The players know that short-term success is irrelevant.  They just need to work on their areas of focus and continue to improve.  That wasn't going to be a role that fit Stevens.

A little too blunt but yeah this is basically what has happened. Stevens has proven to be too good a coach lol He has taken a team with average to above average players far beyond many could have imagined. A playoff team even in the East in year 2? Not many coaches in the league could do that. Ainge's next job is to land a legit #1 option and a good #2 to go along with it. That's the hardest task to a rebuild tho