Tommy Heinsohn yells "Hey Girlie" at woman ref

[Roy H.]

Hey Tommy, its 2015 and there are women refs and women who are Celtics fans watching the game.  You are the one making the bad call tonight!     I have always been a Tommy fan, but he has spoiled the whole Tommy point thing.

So are you saying the female ref should've been treated differently? Tommy is literally ALWAYS on the refs, even the ones he's pretty good friends with. Pretty ridiculous to bring this up given the context.

I know, right?  Equality in this situation means being treated like every other ref.

When Tommy criticizes every other ref, does he refer to their gender?  If so, then whatever.  But I think we all know he doesn't, and therein lies the problem.  His yelling at the ref refers to her gender.  it would be a similar problem if yelling at the ref referred to the ref's race.  Neither race nor gender are relevant to the criticism, so they shouldn't be a part of it.

I love Tommy, but hr messed up, plain and simple.

Since 99% of the other refs are male, that wouldn't make much sense.

Exactly why saying "Hey girlie", which is clearly meant to be a demeaning reference to her gender, is in fact sexist.  I'm disappointed, but not surprised, at the number of people who think there was nothing wrong.  I dare some of you to say "Hey, girlie" to one of your female coworkers the next time you want her attention.  Report back here and let us know how that interaction goes.  Heck, do it multiple times, since if there's nothing wrong, no one will mind.  I'll bet they all find it endearing.

If I didn't know the ref's name, which we can all assume he did not, I probably would've addressed her in a similar way. "Hey, feminine identifier" is an avenue of addressing the only type of reference that separates her from the other refs. It's not "clearly meant to be a demeaning reference to her gender," because how was he supposed to address her? "Hey, You!" - doesn't get the job done, "Hey, Ref!" - doesn't get the job done, "Hey, feminine identifier!" - gets the job done because we all know who he's addressing. She and the rest of the refs could've avoided the whole situation by not being terrible all night.

For example, if there was one girl in a group of three guys that you were trying to get their attention, what would you yell to them - Hey, ____ ? It almost necessarily has to be feminine language to get her attention.

Good Lord, people need to lighten up on all of this PC crap. Stuff like this is only "sexism" if you're looking for "sexism."

I think equating "girlie" with "feminine identifier" is where you might be going astray here.

"Hey, girlie" isn't the equivalent of "Hey, Miss" or "Hey, Ma'am" or even "Hey, lady".

[nickagneta]

Hey Tommy, its 2015 and there are women refs and women who are Celtics fans watching the game.  You are the one making the bad call tonight!     I have always been a Tommy fan, but he has spoiled the whole Tommy point thing.

So are you saying the female ref should've been treated differently? Tommy is literally ALWAYS on the refs, even the ones he's pretty good friends with. Pretty ridiculous to bring this up given the context.

I know, right?  Equality in this situation means being treated like every other ref.

When Tommy criticizes every other ref, does he refer to their gender?  If so, then whatever.  But I think we all know he doesn't, and therein lies the problem.  His yelling at the ref refers to her gender.  it would be a similar problem if yelling at the ref referred to the ref's race.  Neither race nor gender are relevant to the criticism, so they shouldn't be a part of it.

I love Tommy, but hr messed up, plain and simple.

Since 99% of the other refs are male, that wouldn't make much sense.

Exactly why saying "Hey girlie", which is clearly meant to be a demeaning reference to her gender, is in fact sexist.  I'm disappointed, but not surprised, at the number of people who think there was nothing wrong.  I dare some of you to say "Hey, girlie" to one of your female coworkers the next time you want her attention.  Report back here and let us know how that interaction goes.  Heck, do it multiple times, since if there's nothing wrong, no one will mind.  I'll bet they all find it endearing.

If I didn't know the ref's name, which we can all assume he did not, I probably would've addressed her in a similar way. "Hey, feminine identifier" is an avenue of addressing the only type of reference that separates her from the other refs. It's not "clearly meant to be a demeaning reference to her gender," because how was he supposed to address her? "Hey, You!" - doesn't get the job done, "Hey, Ref!" - doesn't get the job done, "Hey, feminine identifier!" - gets the job done because we all know who he's addressing. She and the rest of the refs could've avoided the whole situation by not being terrible all night.

For example, if there was one girl in a group of three guys that you were trying to get their attention, what would you yell to them - Hey, ____ ? It almost necessarily has to be feminine language to get her attention.

Good Lord, people need to lighten up on all of this PC crap. Stuff like this is only "sexism" if you're looking for "sexism."

By this logic if all the refs were male, two white and one African-American and Tommy wanted to yell at the African-American ref but didn't know his name it would be okay to yell out "Hey, blackie" because it was the only obvious identifier for the official?

I am thinking your line of thinking is off.

Tommy is a nice guy and I am sure meant nothing harmful but let's all stop pretending like he didn't say something that wasn't sexist. It was. He apologized for it. Let's move on.

[jpotter33]

Hey Tommy, its 2015 and there are women refs and women who are Celtics fans watching the game.  You are the one making the bad call tonight!     I have always been a Tommy fan, but he has spoiled the whole Tommy point thing.

So are you saying the female ref should've been treated differently? Tommy is literally ALWAYS on the refs, even the ones he's pretty good friends with. Pretty ridiculous to bring this up given the context.

I know, right?  Equality in this situation means being treated like every other ref.

When Tommy criticizes every other ref, does he refer to their gender?  If so, then whatever.  But I think we all know he doesn't, and therein lies the problem.  His yelling at the ref refers to her gender.  it would be a similar problem if yelling at the ref referred to the ref's race.  Neither race nor gender are relevant to the criticism, so they shouldn't be a part of it.

I love Tommy, but hr messed up, plain and simple.

Since 99% of the other refs are male, that wouldn't make much sense.

Exactly why saying "Hey girlie", which is clearly meant to be a demeaning reference to her gender, is in fact sexist.  I'm disappointed, but not surprised, at the number of people who think there was nothing wrong.  I dare some of you to say "Hey, girlie" to one of your female coworkers the next time you want her attention.  Report back here and let us know how that interaction goes.  Heck, do it multiple times, since if there's nothing wrong, no one will mind.  I'll bet they all find it endearing.

If I didn't know the ref's name, which we can all assume he did not, I probably would've addressed her in a similar way. "Hey, feminine identifier" is an avenue of addressing the only type of reference that separates her from the other refs. It's not "clearly meant to be a demeaning reference to her gender," because how was he supposed to address her? "Hey, You!" - doesn't get the job done, "Hey, Ref!" - doesn't get the job done, "Hey, feminine identifier!" - gets the job done because we all know who he's addressing. She and the rest of the refs could've avoided the whole situation by not being terrible all night.

For example, if there was one girl in a group of three guys that you were trying to get their attention, what would you yell to them - Hey, ____ ? It almost necessarily has to be feminine language to get her attention.

Good Lord, people need to lighten up on all of this PC crap. Stuff like this is only "sexism" if you're looking for "sexism."

I think equating "girlie" with "feminine identifier" is where you might be going astray here.

"Hey, girlie" isn't the equivalent of "Hey, Miss" or "Hey, Ma'am" or even "Hey, lady".

I don't see much of a difference between those other than etiquette, which doesn't translate to sexism in my book. He was using it as a proper noun not an adjective. As an adjective, it refers to feminine qualities of a girl (which I can understand being used in a derogatory/sexist way), but as a noun it usually refers to a young girl. So technically his use of "girlie" would be more him using a word describing her as immature or young in a condescending way. So it's agism not sexism, which totally seems up Tommy's alley 

[jpotter33]

Hey Tommy, its 2015 and there are women refs and women who are Celtics fans watching the game.  You are the one making the bad call tonight!     I have always been a Tommy fan, but he has spoiled the whole Tommy point thing.

So are you saying the female ref should've been treated differently? Tommy is literally ALWAYS on the refs, even the ones he's pretty good friends with. Pretty ridiculous to bring this up given the context.

I know, right?  Equality in this situation means being treated like every other ref.

When Tommy criticizes every other ref, does he refer to their gender?  If so, then whatever.  But I think we all know he doesn't, and therein lies the problem.  His yelling at the ref refers to her gender.  it would be a similar problem if yelling at the ref referred to the ref's race.  Neither race nor gender are relevant to the criticism, so they shouldn't be a part of it.

I love Tommy, but hr messed up, plain and simple.

Since 99% of the other refs are male, that wouldn't make much sense.

Exactly why saying "Hey girlie", which is clearly meant to be a demeaning reference to her gender, is in fact sexist.  I'm disappointed, but not surprised, at the number of people who think there was nothing wrong.  I dare some of you to say "Hey, girlie" to one of your female coworkers the next time you want her attention.  Report back here and let us know how that interaction goes.  Heck, do it multiple times, since if there's nothing wrong, no one will mind.  I'll bet they all find it endearing.

If I didn't know the ref's name, which we can all assume he did not, I probably would've addressed her in a similar way. "Hey, feminine identifier" is an avenue of addressing the only type of reference that separates her from the other refs. It's not "clearly meant to be a demeaning reference to her gender," because how was he supposed to address her? "Hey, You!" - doesn't get the job done, "Hey, Ref!" - doesn't get the job done, "Hey, feminine identifier!" - gets the job done because we all know who he's addressing. She and the rest of the refs could've avoided the whole situation by not being terrible all night.

For example, if there was one girl in a group of three guys that you were trying to get their attention, what would you yell to them - Hey, ____ ? It almost necessarily has to be feminine language to get her attention.

Good Lord, people need to lighten up on all of this PC crap. Stuff like this is only "sexism" if you're looking for "sexism."

By this logic if all the refs were male, two white and one African-American and Tommy wanted to yell at the African-American ref but didn't know his name it would be okay to yell out "Hey, blackie" because it was the only obvious identifier for the official?

I am thinking your line of thinking is off.

Tommy is a nice guy and I am sure meant nothing harmful but let's all stop pretending like he didn't say something that wasn't sexist. It was. He apologized for it. Let's move on.

Except he pretty much knows all of the black refs, because for some reason there doesn't seem to be many young black refs coming through. He knows virtually all of the refs since they stay around forever (see Dick and Joey), and I think he even knows the Violet female ref. But he usually refers to the refs he doesn't know as "young ref," because it's usually only the new refs coming in that he doesn't know, who happen to almost all be white in my experience with Tommy.

[Ilikesports17]

I dont think there was any malice in it and I find it hard to believe anyone was offended unless they wanted to be.

The term "girlie" isnt really derogatory as far as I can tell and I dont think Tommy called her girlie to imply that a female is less likely to be competent in the NBA.

For this reason I dont get why this is an issue. All that matters is intent unless you are using a word that is offensive like f*g. I think a lot of people use that word without meaning to be offensive but the word has such a derogatory and offensive connotation that no matter the intent it is still unacceptable to use the word. I dont see that here.

If there was a belief that females cant do the job then this ref certainly didnt help the female cause. She was garbage.

Im a little sick of the PC police. Scratch that, I am very sick of the PC police.

[Hemingway]

When I heard him say this I though, oh Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. someones gonna be mad. But come on, is "girly" offensive? Is pointing out someone's gender offensive? But in this day and age, Tommy is a dying breed.

I'll go further- The NBA shouldn't hire women refs. Palmer was the worst ref imo ever. the girly tonight was part of a bad reffing team effort.

[Roy H.]

the girly tonight was part of a bad reffing team effort.

To be clear:  we can debate Tommy's use of the term, but it's not going to be used to describe others on CelticsBlog.

Disparaging comments, stereotypes, or generalizations made in relation to another’s race, gender, ethnicity, religion, handicap, or sexual preference are not permitted.  The use of slurs and similar language related to such categories will result in an immediate suspension and/or ban.

Last warning, for everybody.

[Ilikesports17]

Anyone know how female refs are selected. I always assumed it was exactly the same path men faced, but I saw a poster suggesting that there is an affirmative action plan of sorts with female refs. Is this true?

If so it should be stopped immediately. Refs should be selected based on their ability to referee and nothing else.

this has nothing to do with how bad the refs were last night. Use your affirmative action in college Bball or whatever but in the NBA the emphasis should be on getting the call right, not filling some quota.

[Ilikesports17]

the girly tonight was part of a bad reffing team effort.

To be clear:  we can debate Tommy's use of the term, but it's not going to be used to describe others on CelticsBlog.

Disparaging comments, stereotypes, or generalizations made in relation to another’s race, gender, ethnicity, religion, handicap, or sexual preference are not permitted.  The use of slurs and similar language related to such categories will result in an immediate suspension and/or ban.

Last warning, for everybody.

Was there anything wrong with the quote you outlined? honest question.

[Kuberski33]

The constitution of the United States protects free speech.  Free speech also means allowing speech that some may deem offensive.  This is the issue I have in general with political correctness nowadays.  I personally could care less what someone says - unless they're making a threat.  If you want to tell someone they suck or that you don't like them...that's your right.  You also get to live the any consequences that may result from opening your yap.  That's just me.

This being said there's a difference between that and saying something on a broadcast that's controlled by a professional team that's selling its product, brand, sponsors etc to an audience.
What Tommy said you just don't do.  And let's face it, when you employ older broadcasters you run the risk that there are going to be mistakes like Tommy made.   As you age your ability to think/process quickly is diminished - and in a live broadcast situation you have to be able to think quickly on your feet if you're as old as Tommy his, that's a handicap - and a significant one.

Try broadcasting live sometime (I've done it in the past).  It's not easy - especially for the color guy in a TV situation because they have a challenging job to do.  Then listen carefully to a few once great announcers (Dick Enberg/Johnny Most at the end etc) who stayed a bit too long.

Bottom line, I like Tommy, he's a very smart guy and even at this advanced age is still better than a lot of the local color guys you hear on NBA TV's broadcasts.  Years ago when he was doing the national games he was great at switching off his 'homer' persona for the Celtics and calling things down the middle on CBS games - even when Boston was playing.

He's also 80 years old. It is what it is.  He caught himself and apologized - we move on.  It's not worth getting bent out of shape over.

Maybe the discussion needs to take place about how much longer he can do the games...but I'm not going to condemn him over a slip like this.  And the refs did stink - all 3 of them.

[Roy H.]

the girly tonight was part of a bad reffing team effort.

To be clear:  we can debate Tommy's use of the term, but it's not going to be used to describe others on CelticsBlog.

Disparaging comments, stereotypes, or generalizations made in relation to another’s race, gender, ethnicity, religion, handicap, or sexual preference are not permitted.  The use of slurs and similar language related to such categories will result in an immediate suspension and/or ban.

Last warning, for everybody.

Was there anything wrong with the quote you outlined? honest question.

Yes.

[Ilikesports17]

the girly tonight was part of a bad reffing team effort.

To be clear:  we can debate Tommy's use of the term, but it's not going to be used to describe others on CelticsBlog.

Disparaging comments, stereotypes, or generalizations made in relation to another’s race, gender, ethnicity, religion, handicap, or sexual preference are not permitted.  The use of slurs and similar language related to such categories will result in an immediate suspension and/or ban.

Last warning, for everybody.

Was there anything wrong with the quote you outlined? honest question.

Yes.

Please elaborate.

[jpotter33]

The constitution of the United States protects free speech.  Free speech also means allowing speech that some may deem offensive.  This is the issue I have in general with political correctness nowadays.  I personally could care less what someone says - unless they're making a threat.  If you want to tell someone they suck or that you don't like them...that's your right.  You also get to live the any consequences that may result from opening your yap.  That's just me.

This being said there's a difference between that and saying something on a broadcast that's controlled by a professional team that's selling its product, brand, sponsors etc to an audience.
What Tommy said you just don't do.  And let's face it, when you employ older broadcasters you run the risk that there are going to be mistakes like Tommy made.   As you age your ability to think/process quickly is diminished - and in a live broadcast situation you have to be able to think quickly on your feet if you're as old as Tommy his, that's a handicap - and a significant one.

Try broadcasting live sometime (I've done it in the past).  It's not easy - especially for the color guy in a TV situation because they have a challenging job to do.  Then listen carefully to a few once great announcers (Dick Enberg/Johnny Most at the end etc) who stayed a bit too long.

Bottom line, I like Tommy, he's a very smart guy and even at this advanced age is still better than a lot of the local color guys you hear on NBA TV's broadcasts.  Years ago when he was doing the national games he was great at switching off his 'homer' persona for the Celtics and calling things down the middle on CBS games - even when Boston was playing.

He's also 80 years old. It is what it is.  He caught himself and apologized - we move on.  It's not worth getting bent out of shape over.

Maybe the discussion needs to take place about how much longer he can do the games...but I'm not going to condemn him over a slip like this.  And the refs did stink - all 3 of them.

While I disagree that what Tommy said was offensive or meant to be derogatory, it does have to be extremely hard to not use profanity or language that is acceptable in everyday use but not necessarily acceptable for a broadcast on air, especially for someone who's not necessarily politically correct like myself.

[Roy H.]

the girly tonight was part of a bad reffing team effort.

To be clear:  we can debate Tommy's use of the term, but it's not going to be used to describe others on CelticsBlog.

Disparaging comments, stereotypes, or generalizations made in relation to another’s race, gender, ethnicity, religion, handicap, or sexual preference are not permitted.  The use of slurs and similar language related to such categories will result in an immediate suspension and/or ban.

Last warning, for everybody.

Was there anything wrong with the quote you outlined? honest question.

Yes.

Please elaborate.

"Girlie" is, at least to some degree, condescending and demeaning, and is tinged with sexism.  You're entitled to disagree, but for CelticsBlog's purposes, that's what we're going with. 

[Celtics18]

I thought she made a few bad calls last night, but so far I like what I've seen from Lauren Holtkamp as an NBA referee.  I think she's going to be very good in the long run.

Also, Tommy clearly made a mistake by yelling "hey, girlie!!" at Holtkamp during last night's game.  You don't call a grown up, professional woman "girlie."  If he had yelled "hey, boy!!" at a male ref, it would have been equally insulting.

However, I'm ready to move on.  I revere Tommy Heinsohn.  He would have to say much, much worse than that for me to hold it against him in any kind of significant way.