Marcus Smart's "ejection"

[Alleyoopster]

Good call...whether he meant it or not.  Could have caused a serious injury like a concussion or a broken nose. 

[crimson_stallion]

Absolutely horrible. There's no way to prove intent on something like that. I fully expect the NBA to review that and downgrade it. Just ridiculous.

The flagrant foul rule says nothing about intent.  Unnecessary contact is a flagrant-1.  Unnecessary and excessive contact is a flagrant-2.  It was clearly unnecessary contact.   Because the elbow struck the head, I think they'll leave it at a flagrant-2. 

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_b.html

How is it "clearly unnecessary contact"

What I see is smart trying to use his forearm to create space while he's going up for a layup - Payton just happened to be right where his arm hit.

By definition, "unnecessary contact" would mean you are making contact with a player in such a way that does is not a basketball play.  A perfect example would be one of those Dwight Howard elbows away from the ball or outside of regulation.  Unnecessary contact does not refer to you trying to create space for yourself and accidentally hit a player in the process.

For example when you are trying to stop a player from scoring on the fast break, so you grab him around the neck - that is unnecessary contact because simply slapping his arm or similar would have likely sufficed, and so you have gone beyond what you needed to do to stop the player from scoring.

Unnecessary and excessive is when you try to stop that fast break by grabbing the offensive player around the neck, then throwing them to the floor.  This is unnecessary because you could have stopped the basket without grabbing them around the neck, and it's excessive because you had already stopped the basket when you DID grab them around the neck, so the second action of throwing them to the floor achieved nothing other than displaying aggression.

I don't see what Smart did as unnecessary - to me it was clearly a basketball play.  It's not like he ran up to Payton and clotheslined him.  He was trying to score and trying to create space with his forearm (which NBA players always do, and always get away with) and Payton happened to be in the trajectory of his swinging forearm. 

If this was a Lebron James or Kevin Durant it probably would have been a no call, and a simple offensive foul and the absolute most.  No chance they would have called a Flagrant 1, let alone a Flagrant 2. 

This league and it's officials are ridiculous - no consistency at all.  If you're going to call stuff like this as you did then that's fine, but if you're gong to do that then call it the same way for everybody.  I see stuff like this all the time in the league and half the time it doesn't even get called. 

Dwyane Wade dislocated Rajon Rondo's arm and Dwight Howard grabbed Paul Pierce's jeryey and threw him to the floor - both plays were far more dangerous then this one and neither one of them was called a Flagrant 2.  Hell, Howard has caused so many 'stray elbow concussions" that he could probably have his own highlight reel just for that play.

It's disgraceful how this league changes the way they make calls and treat players depending on which team they are on or how much experience they have, and/or reputation.   

[crimson_stallion]

Good call...whether he meant it or not.  Could have caused a serious injury like a concussion or a broken nose.

Yes, and so could about 90% of other plays in basketball.  Paul George broke his leg on a fastbreak play...should the opponent get a flagrant foul for challenging him, because doing so might have scared him and forced him to run that little bit faster, which then increased the risk
of him possibly breaking his leg?

Didn't Marquis get spine damage from running with his head in to another defender by mistake?  Should that defender then be ejected for not moving out of the way?

I see plays just like this in almost every game I played, and they are rarely (if ever) called.  Guys are always using their elbows or forearms to crate space.  So what, that's perfectly OK to do as long as you don't hit anyone in the head?  If swiging a forearm is considered such a dangerous move, then players should get a flagrant 2 every time they do it, regardless of whether or not they make contact, because it's simply dangerous.  You can't declare the move safe, but only if you don't hit somebody. 

League these days is pitiful. 

[D.o.s.]

Paul George broke his leg on a stanchion.

That said, you're not wrong, I don't think anyone who's played basketball as an adult with anyone who wanted to win has been able to avoid the exact kind of play that got Smart a flagrant 2.

But yes, the difference is that you can't allow players to get away with "making space" into someone's head at the NBA level. Millions of dollars aren't riding on the reputation of your rec league. 

[The One]

Good call...whether he meant it or not.  Could have caused a serious injury like a concussion or a broken nose.

League these days is pitiful.

I'm enjoying the heck out of this season...a lot of good to great basketball...and the Association is enjoying a wonderful renaissance.

[LHR]

Good call...whether he meant it or not.  Could have caused a serious injury like a concussion or a broken nose.

League these days is pitiful.

I'm enjoying the heck out of this season...a lot of good to great basketball...and the Association is enjoying a wonderful renaissance.

I agree with you - the product is just infinitely better than what it was a decade ago when I really thought the league was losing it, in my opinion.

Unlike other North American professional sports leagues, I just think the NBA needs some sharpening of the edges.  Fortunately for them, they seem to have the most pragmatic people within its league offices.

[fairweatherfan]

That was a legit flagrant foul.   Smart was trying to clear space for himself and threw the elbow into Peyton's head.  They HAVE to call that a flagrant.  Especially when you look at the replay.

Yeah,  I can understand thinking it's not a Flagrant 2, or arguing that the flagrant rules SHOULDN'T apply to that kind of play, but there's no way you can rationally look at the replay and argue the flagrant rules DON'T apply to that kind of play.  An elbow to the head is as close to automatic as those calls get.

[Csfan1984]

I honestly dont see it as a flagrant 2 but if it gets Marcus a suspension I will call it a 2. C's will lose a few extra games if both Smart and AB out. C's are still close to top 8 spot in the draft. Come on overreacting NBA league office.

[DesertDweller]

Flagrant 1, yes   ejection, no.  I think he got the ejection for screaming at the official, you could see the saliva flying out of his mouth because he was screaming so loud.

[SHAQATTACK]

Good call...whether he meant it or not.  Could have caused a serious injury like a concussion or a broken nose.

Ever seen LeBron drive to the bucket .....he is all elbows and 260 pounds of muscle throwing himself at the rim....

Why don't officials call him for running over people ?

He destroys smaller opponents nightly with his physical battering he dishes out.

But it's consistently over looked ,  why? .....if Jeff Green or Marcus smart makes the same play it's outrageous , or if D Wade does the same ....then it's OK.

[FLCeltsFan]

Unnecessary and excessive is when you try to stop that fast break by grabbing the offensive player around the neck, then throwing them to the floor.  This is unnecessary because you could have stopped the basket without grabbing them around the neck, and it's excessive because you had already stopped the basket when you DID grab them around the neck, so the second action of throwing them to the floor achieved nothing other than displaying aggression.

Only sometimes.  If a Celtic does it probably.  Other times maybe not.
Exhibit A
http://youtu.be/CuNWIzjaL3I
This was ruled a regular foul. 

[D.o.s.]

Unnecessary and excessive is when you try to stop that fast break by grabbing the offensive player around the neck, then throwing them to the floor.  This is unnecessary because you could have stopped the basket without grabbing them around the neck, and it's excessive because you had already stopped the basket when you DID grab them around the neck, so the second action of throwing them to the floor achieved nothing other than displaying aggression.

Only sometimes.  If a Celtic does it probably.  Other times maybe not.
Exhibit A
http://youtu.be/CuNWIzjaL3I
This was ruled a regular foul.

Because it was a wrap-up. His forearm slips up from the shoulder to the neck, but contrary to what the Green Glasses Rx might provide, that's not a choke.

[tazzmaniac]

Absolutely horrible. There's no way to prove intent on something like that. I fully expect the NBA to review that and downgrade it. Just ridiculous.

The flagrant foul rule says nothing about intent.  Unnecessary contact is a flagrant-1.  Unnecessary and excessive contact is a flagrant-2.  It was clearly unnecessary contact.   Because the elbow struck the head, I think they'll leave it at a flagrant-2. 

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_b.html

How is it "clearly unnecessary contact"

What I see is smart trying to use his forearm to create space while he's going up for a layup - Payton just happened to be right where his arm hit.

By definition, "unnecessary contact" would mean you are making contact with a player in such a way that does is not a basketball play.  A perfect example would be one of those Dwight Howard elbows away from the ball or outside of regulation.  Unnecessary contact does not refer to you trying to create space for yourself and accidentally hit a player in the process.

For example when you are trying to stop a player from scoring on the fast break, so you grab him around the neck - that is unnecessary contact because simply slapping his arm or similar would have likely sufficed, and so you have gone beyond what you needed to do to stop the player from scoring.

Unnecessary and excessive is when you try to stop that fast break by grabbing the offensive player around the neck, then throwing them to the floor.  This is unnecessary because you could have stopped the basket without grabbing them around the neck, and it's excessive because you had already stopped the basket when you DID grab them around the neck, so the second action of throwing them to the floor achieved nothing other than displaying aggression.

I don't see what Smart did as unnecessary - to me it was clearly a basketball play.  It's not like he ran up to Payton and clotheslined him.  He was trying to score and trying to create space with his forearm (which NBA players always do, and always get away with) and Payton happened to be in the trajectory of his swinging forearm. 

If this was a Lebron James or Kevin Durant it probably would have been a no call, and a simple offensive foul and the absolute most.  No chance they would have called a Flagrant 1, let alone a Flagrant 2. 

This league and it's officials are ridiculous - no consistency at all.  If you're going to call stuff like this as you did then that's fine, but if you're gong to do that then call it the same way for everybody.  I see stuff like this all the time in the league and half the time it doesn't even get called. 

Dwyane Wade dislocated Rajon Rondo's arm and Dwight Howard grabbed Paul Pierce's jeryey and threw him to the floor - both plays were far more dangerous then this one and neither one of them was called a Flagrant 2.  Hell, Howard has caused so many 'stray elbow concussions" that he could probably have his own highlight reel just for that play.

It's disgraceful how this league changes the way they make calls and treat players depending on which team they are on or how much experience they have, and/or reputation.   

If the play had gone as you describe, I agree it shouldn't be a flagrant.  However that is not what the video shows.  Smart didn't use his forearm.  He used his elbow.  Payton didn't just happen to be where the elbow was.  Smart lurched to his left to create the contact. 

[jpotter33]

Hmmm, it's interesting that so many people here think that it was intentional. I think it was clearly an offensive foul, but there was no ill-will or anything that I can see. I can see the argument that the flagrant rules of today make it a flagrant foul, but in that case I think that is a great injustice and the criteria need to be changed. To each their own, I guess.

But to those calling that a "dirty" play or that it could "seriously hurt" another player need a reality check. The NBA is so soft anymore, and if that is "dirty" or an action that can seriously hurt someone, then you have no idea how "gentle" the NBA is compared to other sports. That was Smart trying to create room with his elbow with hardly any room to operate. That was nothing.

During my undergraduate years I was a mixed martial arts fighter. My camp was a pretty rough group of country boys, and we did some pretty stupid stuff during training that I regret in hindsight. I only had one fight that allowed elbows, and these pictures show what true elbows will do to you.







And these pictures don't do those elbows justice. I had black eyes, cauliflower ear, and a broken nose for two months lol So let's calm down on the "he could've caused a serious injury" crap. He was merely trying to create room, nothing more. It may have been a flagrant foul according to the current rules, but it was hardly anything malicious. The above pictures show what happens when someone really wants to hurt you lol

[Chris22]

I knocked a guy out with my elbow once.

I grabbed a rebound and came down and accidentally hit him in the head.