Kyle Korver named to the All-Star game to replace Dwyane Wade ... really???

[byennie]

I don't think he makes the team without Atlanta leading the east. But that's a bit of a trap: Korver might also be one of the main reasons they are winning so much.

http://www.82games.com/1415/14ATL7.HTM
Atlanta is +13.5 per 48 minutes with Korver on the floor. eFG = 56%
Atlanta is -1.1 per 48 minutes with him on the bench. eFG = 47%

Fun stat. If Kyle Kover missed 96 three pointers IN A ROW, he would be tied with Stephen Curry for the exact same makes and attempts. Curry is having a good year and shooting 40% from 3PT.

[JohnBoy65]

This point was brought up earlier, but the guy is on pace to put up the BEST shooting numbers in the HISTORY of the NBA. How isn't that worth of an All-Star selection?

Oh and one more thing.  In 1994-95 Steve Kerr shot 50.6% from the field, 51.5% from three and 92.9% from the foul line.  You could say that his Chicago team was...fairly successful.  I'll let you do your research and let me know if he ever made an All-Star team.

I did my research, and via Basketballreference.com Steve Kerr's numbers 52.7% from the field, 52.4% from 3, and 77.8% from the free throw line.

[D.o.s.]

Some quick replies --
-PER is garbage,
-if you don't think Korver is the most essential player on the East's best team you're not paying attention,
-the Rodman comparison works especially well if you say that "all" Korver does is shoot because it's exactly the same as saying "all' Rodman did was rebound,
-Korver is better than Battier, Bowen,and Kerr, although Battier is a difficult comp.
-Kerr posted 50/51/93 from the line in 95-96, not 94-95, but if you don't see the difference between the two you're just being stubborn.

But, for fun, Kerr shot 237 threes the whole season. Korver's taken 308 in just 53 games. Kerr also did nothing else except sit beyond the arc and be open when his All-Time teammates deigned to pass him the ball. You're going to be open a whole lot when you're the other guard on the floor with Michael Jordan.

[bdm860]

This point was brought up earlier, but the guy is on pace to put up the BEST shooting numbers in the HISTORY of the NBA. How isn't that worth of an All-Star selection?

Oh and one more thing.  In 1994-95 Steve Kerr shot 50.6% from the field, 51.5% from three and 92.9% from the foul line.  You could say that his Chicago team was...fairly successful.  I'll let you do your research and let me know if he ever made an All-Star team.

I did my research, and via Basketballreference.com Steve Kerr's numbers 52.7% from the field, 52.4% from 3, and 77.8% from the free throw line. No one has ever eclipsed the mark of 50/50/90.

I believe it was a simple error by crimson_stallion, it was '96 Kerr who went 50/50/90 on a team that won 72 games, not '95 Kerr.

'96 Kerr and currently Korver are the only guys to do it over a full season (and a few other guys who didn't play full seaons.)  Celtics Keith Bogans stand up!

[soap07]

-if you don't think Korver is the most essential player on the East's best team you're not paying attention,

I find it hard to believe that losing Horford or Teague wouldn't be a bigger loss to the team than losing Korver.

[Fafnir]

This point was brought up earlier, but the guy is on pace to put up the BEST shooting numbers in the HISTORY of the NBA. How isn't that worth of an All-Star selection?

Oh and one more thing.  In 1994-95 Steve Kerr shot 50.6% from the field, 51.5% from three and 92.9% from the foul line.  You could say that his Chicago team was...fairly successful.  I'll let you do your research and let me know if he ever made an All-Star team.

I did my research, and via Basketballreference.com Steve Kerr's numbers 52.7% from the field, 52.4% from 3, and 77.8% from the free throw line.

Weird that you didn't look one row down in the data to see that crimson just mistyped the year during your extensive research.

Almost as if you wanted to make a cheap point instead of have a conversation....

[Fafnir]

Some quick replies --
-PER is garbage,
-if you don't think Korver is the most essential player on the East's best team you're not paying attention,
-the Rodman comparison works especially well if you say that "all" Korver does is shoot because it's exactly the same as saying "all' Rodman did was rebound,
-Korver is better than Battier, Bowen,and Kerr, although Battier is a difficult comp.
-Kerr posted 50/51/93 from the line in 95-96, not 94-95, but if you don't see the difference between the two you're just being stubborn.

But, for fun, Kerr shot 237 threes the whole season. Korver's taken 308 in just 53 games. Kerr also did nothing else except sit beyond the arc and be open when his All-Time teammates deigned to pass him the ball. You're going to be open a whole lot when you're the other guard on the floor with Michael Jordan.

Plus 95-96 was a season with a shortened three point line.

[fairweatherfan]

Some quick replies --
-PER is garbage,
-if you don't think Korver is the most essential player on the East's best team you're not paying attention,
-the Rodman comparison works especially well if you say that "all" Korver does is shoot because it's exactly the same as saying "all' Rodman did was rebound,
-Korver is better than Battier, Bowen,and Kerr, although Battier is a difficult comp.
-Kerr posted 50/51/93 from the line in 95-96, not 94-95, but if you don't see the difference between the two you're just being stubborn.

But, for fun, Kerr shot 237 threes the whole season. Korver's taken 308 in just 53 games. Kerr also did nothing else except sit beyond the arc and be open when his All-Time teammates deigned to pass him the ball. You're going to be open a whole lot when you're the other guard on the floor with Michael Jordan.

Plus 95-96 was a season with a shortened three point line.

Beat me to it - Korver's the only one to be touching these numbers at the "normal" extended 3 pt line.  All those short line years have to have an asterisk after them, no matter what George McCloud thinks about it.

[Donoghus]

Some quick replies --
-PER is garbage,
-if you don't think Korver is the most essential player on the East's best team you're not paying attention,
-the Rodman comparison works especially well if you say that "all" Korver does is shoot because it's exactly the same as saying "all' Rodman did was rebound,
-Korver is better than Battier, Bowen,and Kerr, although Battier is a difficult comp.
-Kerr posted 50/51/93 from the line in 95-96, not 94-95, but if you don't see the difference between the two you're just being stubborn.

But, for fun, Kerr shot 237 threes the whole season. Korver's taken 308 in just 53 games. Kerr also did nothing else except sit beyond the arc and be open when his All-Time teammates deigned to pass him the ball. You're going to be open a whole lot when you're the other guard on the floor with Michael Jordan.

Plus 95-96 was a season with a shortened three point line.

And a crap expansion year (TOR & VAN).  Not sure who much that would actually relate to Kerr's shooting, though.

[D.o.s.]

Some quick replies --
-PER is garbage,
-if you don't think Korver is the most essential player on the East's best team you're not paying attention,
-the Rodman comparison works especially well if you say that "all" Korver does is shoot because it's exactly the same as saying "all' Rodman did was rebound,
-Korver is better than Battier, Bowen,and Kerr, although Battier is a difficult comp.
-Kerr posted 50/51/93 from the line in 95-96, not 94-95, but if you don't see the difference between the two you're just being stubborn.

But, for fun, Kerr shot 237 threes the whole season. Korver's taken 308 in just 53 games. Kerr also did nothing else except sit beyond the arc and be open when his All-Time teammates deigned to pass him the ball. You're going to be open a whole lot when you're the other guard on the floor with Michael Jordan.

Plus 95-96 was a season with a shortened three point line.

Beat me to it - Korver's the only one to be touching these numbers at the "normal" extended 3 pt line.  All those short line years have to have an asterisk after them, no matter what George McCloud thinks about it.

But what does Duncan McCloud think about it? 

[Redz]

I think some people here are misinterpreting my original point that I was trying to make.

I don't by any means believe that you need to be a big time scorer to be worthy of an All-Star selection - not at all.  Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace were about as far from 'scorers'
as you can get, but they both made the team and I believe they deserved it.

So, I hear you ask - if they deserved it, then why doesn't Korver?

Because Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace were both elite at more than one thing - defence and rebounding.  I would argue that Dennis Rodman was the best defender in the league in his prime, and just about the best rebounder too.  I can say the same for Ben Wallace. They weren't great offensive players, but they dominated in every other facet of the game.

Same can be said for Jason Kidd and Rajon Rondo.  Neither of those guys was a big time scorer, but I believe they deserved their All-Star spots.  Why?  Because scoring was the only thing they didn't do.  Both of those guys in their primes were triple double machines who could be dominant on both ends of the floor.  Both guys were the best rebounders and passers in the league at their position, and among the best defenders too.

This outlines the big difference between those guys, and Kyle Korver.  If you read all of the comments here I think it only serves to emphasise my original point - the only thing Korver is really great at is shooting. If you look at him as a defender, rebounder, passer and overall scorer - he is average at best in all of those categories. 

If you're only good at one thing then that makes you, by definition, a role player.  Korver has only one role and that is to stretch the offense with his shooting.  He might be extremely good, elite, dominant even at that role...but the fact still remains that he's a "one-trick pony".

Personally, I don't believe that doing one thing well makes you a star.  Look at guys like Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Larry Bird.  Those guys were elite shooters, but that's not all they could do.  Ray Allen averaged closed to 4-5 assists and 4-5 rebounds his entire career and in his younger days was an elite athlete, very capable of creating offense off the dribble.  Larry Bird did absolutely everything and was a triple double machine.  Reggie Miller was in a similar deal to Ray except he was probably a better defender, but not as good at creating his own shot.  Even current elite shooters like Durant and Curry - those guys are amazing shooters, but that's not ALL they do. 

To me, voting Korver an all-star is insulting.

It's insulting to all of those players from the past who were elite at one part of the game, but who never even got mentioned for an All-Star game.  Guys like Shane Battier (defense), Steve Kerr (shooting), Bruce Bowen (defence). 

How many championships did the Spurs win, and how much of a difference maker was Bruce Bowen in helping them win those titles? How many All-Star games did he make?

That's the part I don't agree with.  You make this guy an All-Star when all he can do is shoot, and suddenly you're spitting on every other player in the past who excelled at one area of their game...yet never got recognised for it.

The next question I need to ask.  IF Kyle Korver was putting up the same exact stats but he was playing on the Timberwolves, do you think he'd still have gotten that All-Star vote?  I'm pretty sure we can all agree that the answer to that question is "no".

That pretty much proves it.  Korver isn't on this team based on his own individual merits, he's on the team because the league believed the Hawks should have another player, and he made the most sense.  End of story.

If the league wants to make that type of change then fine, but then you need to change your All-Star voting system.  You can't vote for 80% of your roster based on their start talents, then completely change the way you vote with the last few guys - if you did then guys like Tim Duncan (he has a -2 on/of rating this year, so the Spurs are better when he's NOT on the court) and Kevin Durant (his team is out of the playoffs right now) wouldn't be on the team.

I do not think anybody compares Korver to Ray, Reggie etc. We are talking AS 2015.

Is Wade really elite at something at all in 2014/2015? One can argue for and against. Same for Knight and other guards. Fact is, we have no Ray, Reggie, Klay Thompson, etc.. in the East.

My point is Korver with the best shooting season in the history of the game has as much credit (although not that much compared to all-time greats) as any guard in the poor east. That's it.

and he's doing it for the team with the best record

Danny Ainge made it one year for the Celtics

[soap07]

I don't think he makes the team without Atlanta leading the east. But that's a bit of a trap: Korver might also be one of the main reasons they are winning so much.

http://www.82games.com/1415/14ATL7.HTM
Atlanta is +13.5 per 48 minutes with Korver on the floor. eFG = 56%
Atlanta is -1.1 per 48 minutes with him on the bench. eFG = 47%

Fun stat. If Kyle Kover missed 96 three pointers IN A ROW, he would be tied with Stephen Curry for the exact same makes and attempts. Curry is having a good year and shooting 40% from 3PT.

No one is arguing that Korver is a key cog to Atlanta being number one in the East, or that they are much worse without him. Whether that merits All Star status is the point of contention. I personally don't think so. He's spent his whole career being a role player. This year, he's putting up role player numbers at historic efficiency. I don't think that makes him an All Star.

[celtsfan44]

Korver not only deserved to make the all-star team, he should have been picked earlier and not been an injury replacement.

The point that folks are missing is that unless you have a TRULY great big man defender like Garnett, Korver is doing the most important thing in basketball in this era of the 3 point shot.

He is spacing the floor at an all-time elite level and making shots with insane efficiency.

All-star should be about the 12 players for a given conference that are helping their teams the most win games.  This year Korver is one of them.   He is probably the Hawks most valuable/irreplaceable player this regular season.   

The way I think about that is if you replace Horford, Millsap, Teague and Korver all with average NBA starters which downgrade would hurt the Hawks the most this year.   I suspect Korver.

His advanced metrics suggest that is the case.  Going forward, someone like Horford should be more important than Korver but Korver is just shooting so well that it is having a huge impact.

Before someone says only 13 PPG.   Think of this.   Imagine a guard only averaging 8-9 PPG but never missing a shot.   I would argue that 8-9 PPG scorer is helping out a team more than the typical 20-25 PPG scorer.    Volume scoring is pretty easy to replace  -- the Celtics have been better WITHOUT Jeff Green but elite efficiency especially from a guard/floor spacer is hard to come by.

[celtsfan44]

I don't think he makes the team without Atlanta leading the east. But that's a bit of a trap: Korver might also be one of the main reasons they are winning so much.

http://www.82games.com/1415/14ATL7.HTM
Atlanta is +13.5 per 48 minutes with Korver on the floor. eFG = 56%
Atlanta is -1.1 per 48 minutes with him on the bench. eFG = 47%

Fun stat. If Kyle Kover missed 96 three pointers IN A ROW, he would be tied with Stephen Curry for the exact same makes and attempts. Curry is having a good year and shooting 40% from 3PT.

No one is arguing that Korver is a key cog to Atlanta being number one in the East, or that they are much worse without him. Whether that merits All Star status is the point of contention. I personally don't think so. He's spent his whole career being a role player. This year, he's putting up role player numbers at historic efficiency. I don't think that makes him an All Star.

It should.  An elite role player has tremendous value.   Often times elite role players are more important than some stars.   Rodman was an elite role player and Chicago did nothing the year before he arrived. 

The RPM stat is a pretty objective way to look at things.  It is not a perfect stat but right now it has Korver as the 15th in the entire NBA and he moves up to #13 if you exclude players playing less than 30 MPG.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

Stats like RPM and RAPM are more associated with winning basketball games than PER.

Given the state of the EC, Korver should have been voted in as a starter by the fans.

[Thruthelookingglass]

Korver not only deserved to make the all-star team, he should have been picked earlier and not been an injury replacement.

The point that folks are missing is that unless you have a TRULY great big man defender like Garnett, Korver is doing the most important thing in basketball in this era of the 3 point shot.

He is spacing the floor at an all-time elite level and making shots with insane efficiency.

All-star should be about the 12 players for a given conference that are helping their teams the most win games.  This year Korver is one of them.   He is probably the Hawks most valuable/irreplaceable player this regular season.   

The way I think about that is if you replace Horford, Millsap, Teague and Korver all with average NBA starters which downgrade would hurt the Hawks the most this year.   I suspect Korver.

His advanced metrics suggest that is the case.  Going forward, someone like Horford should be more important than Korver but Korver is just shooting so well that it is having a huge impact.

Before someone says only 13 PPG.   Think of this.   Imagine a guard only averaging 8-9 PPG but never missing a shot.   I would argue that 8-9 PPG scorer is helping out a team more than the typical 20-25 PPG scorer.    Volume scoring is pretty easy to replace  -- the Celtics have been better WITHOUT Jeff Green but elite efficiency especially from a guard/floor spacer is hard to come by.

I see a handful of Hawks games each year and most of the time Korver passes the "eye test" in his impact on the game.  He is usually better than I expect, and hell yeah, the other team reacts or else. Trying to say who the Hawks would miss most these days is more difficult.  It's hard to knock Teague, Horford or Millsap.