What do Pro Tankers want?

[D.o.s.]

Won't someone think of the Amateur Tankers?

[PhoSita]

We all want to see the Celtics win games playing exciting, fun basketball.

Some of us just tend to think that's probably only going to happen after the Celtics acquire at least a couple of young core guys with star talent, and the easiest way to do that is via high draft picks.

I think Ainge has done almost all he reasonably can at this point to strip the team of unnecessary veterans, though.  He's tried to trade Bass and Thornton, but the market for those guys is tepid enough that teams will probably just wait to see if they get bought out.

It's probably better for the development of the young guys at this point to keep solid vets like Bass, a Prince, and Thornton in modest roles rather than dumping them for nothing and replacing them with D-League talents.  Having at least a little bit of stability has real value.  No sense in sabotaging the young assets we have already in the hope of getting better ones in the future.

[Smokeeye123]

Say what you want about the 76ers they are going to be a legit contender before we are.

Absolutely no guarantee of that. They may have some nice pieces, but they'll still need a ton of luck for everything to work out for them.

I totally agree. What if embiid continues to have injury problems? Will noel, mcw, and saric turn them into contenders? Too many question marks


Not saying they won't contend before we do, just saying there's a lot of basketball between now and contending for both teams

Then they keep getting top 3 picks season after season until they eventually hit a homerun and get the next superstar. Simple law of averages

[Smokeeye123]

Say what you want about the 76ers they are going to be a legit contender before we are.

When do you anticipate this legit contender?

2018 or a year or two after.

When do you anticipate the Celtics being a legit contender? Because I see 2020 at least.

[nickagneta]

To those who advocate buying out Bass, Thronton and Prince or trading them for nothing, what happens if Danny Ainge does this and the team keeps winning? What do you want this team to do then? Play with four players? Starting releasing the young players that you feel are most contributing to the wins?

I don't get it. As PhoSita said, Ainge has trimmed this roster down as low as he can go having a couple to three vets on the team to add professionalism, a vet presence and stability to the team so that the youth can see how to act, how to prepare and how to play like professional athletes. I can see a lot of downside to buying those guys out or trading them.

[GratefulCs]

Won't someone think of the Amateur Tankers?

This is all i could think of



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

[Eja117]

To those who advocate buying out Bass, Thronton and Prince or trading them for nothing, what happens if Danny Ainge does this and the team keeps winning? What do you want this team to do then? Play with four players? Starting releasing the young players that you feel are most contributing to the wins?

I don't get it. As PhoSita said, Ainge has trimmed this roster down as low as he can go having a couple to three vets on the team to add professionalism, a vet presence and stability to the team so that the youth can see how to act, how to prepare and how to play like professional athletes. I can see a lot of downside to buying those guys out or trading them.

TP for something I hadn't quite thought of. Definitely needs to be considered in any deal

[Smokeeye123]

To those who advocate buying out Bass, Thronton and Prince or trading them for nothing, what happens if Danny Ainge does this and the team keeps winning? What do you want this team to do then? Play with four players? Starting releasing the young players that you feel are most contributing to the wins?

I don't get it. As PhoSita said, Ainge has trimmed this roster down as low as he can go having a couple to three vets on the team to add professionalism, a vet presence and stability to the team so that the youth can see how to act, how to prepare and how to play like professional athletes. I can see a lot of downside to buying those guys out or trading them.

Then there is nothing you can do but Tayshun, Bass, and Thornton are meaningless players with no future here. The only thing they are doing is slowing down our rebuild by possibly an entire year. If Sullinger, Olynyk, and Smart lead our team to win its perfectly acceptable,but if Thornton goes off for 30 or something than it is unacceptable.

Yes, the Lottery is no guarantee, it's been beaten to death by anti-tankers. Still you have to play odds and put yourself in the best position to win in the lottery. You can't just not win one year and go "WELP WE ARE CURSED WE SHOULD NEVER EVER TANK AGAIN BECAUSE IT DIDNT WORK THIS ONE TIME".  I have no interest in being the 9th seed in the East.Seriously what are we doing here as a franchise? That has been the Nuggets the past couple years and look where it has got them. Tanking is literally the only option we have to load up nd win another championship. Trying to load up without a star that you already got from the draft turns you into the Brooklyn Nets.

Also I am  in the mind that almost nobody on our team is worth anything besides Bradley and maybe Smart. Sullinger and Olynyk are just basically role players. Sullinger's work ethic and weight issues are an embarrassment. Thank god Ainge found an owner dumber than he is and literally destroyed the Nets franchise by trading the corpse of two previously good players for likr 4 unprotected picks. That's basically the only hope Celtics fans can have because the Celtics apparently can't tank right. Maybe the Nets will for us.

[slamtheking]

Say what you want about the 76ers they are going to be a legit contender before we are.

Absolutely no guarantee of that. They may have some nice pieces, but they'll still need a ton of luck for everything to work out for them.

I totally agree. What if embiid continues to have injury problems? Will noel, mcw, and saric turn them into contenders? Too many question marks


Not saying they won't contend before we do, just saying there's a lot of basketball between now and contending for both teams

Then they keep getting top 3 picks season after season until they eventually hit a homerun and get the next superstar. Simple law of averages

ah, the Clippers model of how to run a franchise.  stink, remain in the lottery, repeat.  hope eventually someone pans out and that you're able to land a top player in a trade that the NBA prevents from going to a different franchise. 

[slamtheking]

To those who advocate buying out Bass, Thronton and Prince or trading them for nothing, what happens if Danny Ainge does this and the team keeps winning? What do you want this team to do then? Play with four players? Starting releasing the young players that you feel are most contributing to the wins?

I don't get it. As PhoSita said, Ainge has trimmed this roster down as low as he can go having a couple to three vets on the team to add professionalism, a vet presence and stability to the team so that the youth can see how to act, how to prepare and how to play like professional athletes. I can see a lot of downside to buying those guys out or trading them.

Then there is nothing you can do but Tayshun, Bass, and Thornton are meaningless players with no future here. The only thing they are doing is slowing down our rebuild by possibly an entire year. If Sullinger, Olynyk, and Smart lead our team to win its perfectly acceptable,but if Thornton goes off for 30 or something than it is unacceptable.

how are they slowing down development?  if anything they're showing the younger players how to be professional.  Prince is already sitting a lot.  Bass is starting because Sully's being benched.  KO is out.  who's left to play up front besides Zeller? 

Yes, the Lottery is no guarantee, it's been beaten to death by anti-tankers. Still you have to play odds and put yourself in the best position to win in the lottery. You can't just not win one year and go "WELP WE ARE CURSED WE SHOULD NEVER EVER TANK AGAIN BECAUSE IT DIDNT WORK THIS ONE TIME".  I have no interest in being the 9th seed in the East.Seriously what are we doing here as a franchise? That has been the Nuggets the past couple years and look where it has got them.

Ok, it's a fair point about improving the odds of winning the lottery.  many other "pro-tankers" think having the worst record is a guarantee of winning.  a worse record is just slightly higher odds.  even the worst team (which has only won the lottery 3 times) only has a 25% chance of winning it.   

Tanking is literally the only option we have to load up nd win another championship. Trying to load up without a star that you already got from the draft turns you into the Brooklyn Nets.

This is where you're wrong.  Tanking is not the only option, certainly not tanking over several years like the Sixers are doing.  C's had a #5 pick and a couple of players that were flipped for Ray.  Wally was pretty much washed up and Delonte was a 20-something pick.  C's flipped young players like Big Al, Gomes, Telfair, Gerald Green and a salary match in Theo to get KG.  none of them were high picks except Telfair who was arguably the worst of the bunch.  Trades are very much an option.  Free agency is another option.  Miami didn't tank to get their championships.  Cleveland's had a number of #1 picks - Daugherty, Lebron, Kyrie, Bennett, Wiggins and yet have no titles to show for that luck.  Neither does Orlando with Shaq, Webber (who became Penny), Dwight.  Nor does the Clips with Manning, Kandi-man, Blake. 
winning the lottery is not a sure fire way to win a title.

Also I am  in the mind that almost nobody on our team is worth anything besides Bradley and maybe Smart. Sullinger and Olynyk are just basically role players. Sullinger's work ethic and weight issues are an embarrassment. Thank god Ainge found an owner dumber than he is and literally destroyed the Nets franchise by trading the corpse of two previously good players for likr 4 unprotected picks. That's basically the only hope Celtics fans can have because the Celtics apparently can't tank right. Maybe the Nets will for us.

this leaves me just shaking my head.  AB is your top player on this team?  seriously? 

the team is loaded with role players.  They're all role players.  been saying this all season and it's even more true after all the trades.  A top team may be able to start 1-2 role players and function well.  Our biggest problem is that we have to start 5 role players.  anyone we draft, regardless of where we take them, will be the equivalent of a role player for probably their first couple of years if we're lucky. 

this team is not getting back into contention by living off draft picks.  There's going to need to be trades made or free agents signed that are established top players in order for us to get back to talking about seriously contending. 

[ScoobyDoo]

Per my previous post, you could call me a pro-tanker because I want to play only the young guys to develop them and I do believe that this year that will most likely lead us to a top three pick.

I just don't want to watch vet guys with mediocre talent help us win "just enough" games to secure the 10th spot when they most likely won't be here next year and are not part of our future.

Now, if giving our core of youth (Zeller, Olynyk, Sully, Crowder, Turner to a degree, Young, Bradley and Smart nets us the 7th or 8th spot I am "all in" on that scenario - 100% amped about that outcome. I would still love to get that top three pick to "ideally" add that top three talent and hopefully franchise level player...) but ultimately I wouldn't complain because our future core earned that spot.

I would then look to add the "next level talent" we'd need through free agency with our cap space.

I just can't stand watching mediocre vets pushing us to the 10th spot - it doesn't make any business sense - at all.   

[celticsclay]

Per my previous post, you could call me a pro-tanker because I want to play only the young guys to develop them and I do believe that this year that will most likely lead us to a top three pick.

I just don't want to watch vet guys with mediocre talent help us win "just enough" games to secure the 10th spot when they most likely won't be here next year and are not part of our future.

Now, if giving our core of youth (Zeller, Olynyk, Sully, Crowder, Turner to a degree, Young, Bradley and Smart nets us the 7th or 8th spot I am "all in" on that scenario - 100% amped about that outcome. I would still love to get that top three pick to "ideally" add that top three talent and hopefully franchise level player...) but ultimately I wouldn't complain because our future core earned that spot.

I would then look to add the "next level talent" we'd need through free agency with our cap space.

I just can't stand watching mediocre vets pushing us to the 10th spot - it doesn't make any business sense - at all.

Hey guys good to see all the discourse. I just wanted to reiterate a point that I feel like has been lost in the discussion. Does everyone realize how few minutes the vets are playing right now? I am going to bold this part because it kind of the whole issue I was trying to raise.

In Wednesday's win Bass and Thornton played a total of 43 minutes
In  Tuesday's win Bass and Thornton played a combined 45 minutes
In Sunday's Loss Bass and Thornton and Wallace played a combined 52 minutes
Prince did not play in any of the games

As other posters mentioned with only two other healthy bigs and Sullinger having tardiness and not the best conditioning Bass has to play a few minutes. So are we all really complaining about the 15-20 minutes Thornton has gotten and the occasional 15 minute appearance by  Prince?

[ScoobyDoo]

I understand our current vets may need to play some minutes due to injuries to our younger guys. But that being said, yes, I do mind Thornton's 15-20 minutes, especially when he puts up 18 points in those minutes on occasion.

I'd much rather see Young get all those minutes and see 5-10 points from him, rather than points from Thornton.

Basically, I would jettison these current vets that have no future and replace them with promising D-League candidates for the rest of the season. For example if a guy like Hassan Whiteside was available, I'd rather give him a test run for 40 games than watch Bass play. Dawkins over Thornton,etc...

I just see no logical, common sense reason to play these vets form a business standpoint.

I truly hope they are jettisoned by the deadline or bought out shortly thereafter.

The team will get better, faster and for the long term by developing our Young guys with heavy minutes.

[D.o.s.]

To those who advocate buying out Bass, Thronton and Prince or trading them for nothing, what happens if Danny Ainge does this and the team keeps winning? What do you want this team to do then? Play with four players? Starting releasing the young players that you feel are most contributing to the wins?

I don't get it. As PhoSita said, Ainge has trimmed this roster down as low as he can go having a couple to three vets on the team to add professionalism, a vet presence and stability to the team so that the youth can see how to act, how to prepare and how to play like professional athletes. I can see a lot of downside to buying those guys out or trading them.

Then there is nothing you can do but Tayshun, Bass, and Thornton are meaningless players with no future here. The only thing they are doing is slowing down our rebuild by possibly an entire year. If Sullinger, Olynyk, and Smart lead our team to win its perfectly acceptable,but if Thornton goes off for 30 or something than it is unacceptable.

Yes, the Lottery is no guarantee, it's been beaten to death by anti-tankers. Still you have to play odds and put yourself in the best position to win in the lottery. You can't just not win one year and go "WELP WE ARE CURSED WE SHOULD NEVER EVER TANK AGAIN BECAUSE IT DIDNT WORK THIS ONE TIME".  I have no interest in being the 9th seed in the East.Seriously what are we doing here as a franchise? That has been the Nuggets the past couple years and look where it has got them. Tanking is literally the only option we have to load up nd win another championship. Trying to load up without a star that you already got from the draft turns you into the Brooklyn Nets.

Also I am  in the mind that almost nobody on our team is worth anything besides Bradley and maybe Smart. Sullinger and Olynyk are just basically role players. Sullinger's work ethic and weight issues are an embarrassment. Thank god Ainge found an owner dumber than he is and literally destroyed the Nets franchise by trading the corpse of two previously good players for likr 4 unprotected picks. That's basically the only hope Celtics fans can have because the Celtics apparently can't tank right. Maybe the Nets will for us.

Its worth noting that the Nuggets shot themselves in both feet multiple times when they fired George Karl and refused to dismantle what may have been the most George Karl-y roster ever.

Consider the Hawks: Mediocrity with Larry Drew, Joe Johnson and Josh Smith, conference leading sans those three leading influences.

[celticsclay]

I understand our current vets may need to play some minutes due to injuries to our younger guys. But that being said, yes, I do mind Thornton's 15-20 minutes, especially when he puts up 18 points in those minutes on occasion.

I'd much rather see Young get all those minutes and see 5-10 points from him, rather than points from Thornton.

Basically, I would jettison these current vets that have no future and replace them with promising D-League candidates for the rest of the season. For example if a guy like Hassan Whiteside was available, I'd rather give him a test run for 40 games than watch Bass play. Dawkins over Thornton,etc...

I just see no logical, common sense reason to play these vets form a business standpoint.

I truly hope they are jettisoned by the deadline or bought out shortly thereafter.

The team will get better, faster and for the long term by developing our Young guys with heavy minutes.

TP for the well written and fair response. I can see both sides of the argument on Young. My read on it is that Young really isn't ready for more than 20 minutes a game right now at the NBA level. It would be unfair to the other guys on the team to play him 35 minutes when he isn't really close to NBA level defense. Even if you are playing in a YMCA and you have some guy on your team that is getting torched, that gets really frustrating. Frankly I am surprised he is getting as many minutes as he is. With regards to Thornton, he is a fringe NBA bench player. If you look at the roster of every single tanking team they are playing at least one player that is a vet like this.

The knicks are still playing calderon, anthony and to a lesser extent jason smith.
The 76ers are playing mbah a moute and are apparently going to lace up jason richardson soon
The T wolves have been playing mo williams all season (pretty comparable to thornton) and are now mixing in rubio, pek , martin and thad young.

The lakers have been playing boozer and lin all season.

This idea that the celtics can't play two vets a combined 40 minutes seems like is not very realistic to me. I also think there really is some value in having a few older guys around to teach the young players about NBA lifestyle. I think sully and KO seeing how Bass prepares for games and conducts himself is of more value than the 20 minutes he is playing a night. I think Thornton is probably professional in the sense that he is a fringe NBA player that has managed to stay in the league. Completely gutting all these guys carries risk in my opinion.