Back2Back Victories that will live in INFAMY

[hwangjini_1]

Oh no NOT AGAIN??

ha, ha...very cute. and a tp for you sir.

[Adelaide Celt]

I hope those who predicted we were going to sink all the way into the bottom 4 can acknowledge that this was never likely to happen and certainly won't now.

At the absolute most, Boston will be fighting it out for the 5th worst record with Orlando, Sacramento and Utah plus others possibly. 7th or 8th worst record probably.

[chambers]

in the history of the Celtics. Why are we winning on the road against elite Western Conference teams?

Do we want to stay in the basement of the NBA for years to come. Even the Lakers are Tanking.

What is wrong with the people running the Celtics?

Why are we winning games we ought to lose?

For the life of me I don't understand this thought process.  Why do we want this team to lose?  If they start winning lots of games, even with players like Bass and Prince getting some minutes, doesn't that mean the team is better than we think they are?

Wouldn't you rather have a team of 20-24 year olds who win 40 games versus a similarly aged team that wins 14?  Why do you believe that we have to draft in the top 5 to get an impact player?  Why can't we add solid mid-draft talent and one potential FA/trade veteran to put this team back in contention?

Granted this Celtics team is probably not going to win 40 games, but what if they went .500 after the All-Star break.  Why is that BAD??

I can't see why people get so worked up about a bad team winning games. The Celtics will never win the lottery. History has show that you could find quality talent in the 5-10 slot and that any pick in the draft(even the first) does not guarantee anything. 2-5 extra wins doesn't really mean any thing right now.

Exactly:

Damian Lillard: 6th pick
Stephen Curry: 7th pick
Joakim Noah: 9th pick
Gordon Hayward: 9th pick
Paul George: 10th pick
Brook Lopez: 10th pick
Klay Thompson: 11th pick
Kawhi Leonard: 15th pick
Roy Hibert: 17th pick
Eric Bledsoe: 18th pick
Tobias Harris: 19th pick
Serge Ibaka: 24th pick
Kyle Lowry: 24th pick
Jimmy Butler: 30th pick
DeAndre Jordan: 35th pick
Chandler Parsons: 38th pick
Goran Dragic: 45th pick
Marc Gasol: 48th pick

How many of those guys are franchise players?
Gasol and  Steph Curry? Maybe Paul George.

Your list just proves a point.
Now list the best two players on championship teams over the last 20 years and see where they were picked.

Here's a list of guys who have been among the top two players on a champion in the last twenty years picked outside the top 5:

Clyde Drexler, 14th
Kobe Bryant, 13th
Ben Wallace, undrafted
Tony Parker, 28th
Manu Ginobili, 57th
Paul Pierce, 10th
Dirk Nowitzki, 9th
Kawhi Leonard, 15th

Here's a list of guys who were drafted in the top five, but were top two players on championship teams other than the one they were drafted by:

Shaquille O'Neal, 1st
Chauncey Billups, 3rd
Kevin Garnett, 5th
Pau Gasol, 3rd
Tyson Chandler, 2nd
Lebron James, 1st

Here's a complete list of players who were among the top two players on championship teams who were drafted in the top five by the team they won a title/s with over the course of the past twenty years. 

Hakeem Olajuwon
Michael Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Tim Duncan
David Robinson
Dwayne Wade

*Note that only two of the six players on this last list have won titles in this century.

Ok I'm liking the lists. For the sake of the argument, let's change that list that's bolded and look at players that Either won, or made the NBA finals in the last 25 years, with the team that drafted them with a top 5 pick:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Michael Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Tim Duncan
David Robinson
Dwayne Wade
+Dwight Howard
+Lebron James
+Anthony Hardaway
+Shaquille Oneal
+Kenyon Martin
+Gary Payton
+Patrick Ewing
+James Worthy
+Isiah Thomas
+Magic Johnson
+Russell Westbrook
+Kevin Durant
(Could include  Harden but won't because we're saying top 2 players)
If we went back 10 more years, we'd see Magic Johnson appear 7 more times, and James Worthy another 3 times.
We'd also see Kevin Mchale and Larry Bird (the 6th pick so doesn't count) quite a few times too.
If Kobe Bryant entered the league out of college, there is zero doubt he would have gone top 5 either, and he's had 7 (?) finals appearances to ad to the above list. Just food for thought.

In the last 25 years, that's 18 players picked in the top 5, that made the NBA finals as a top two player on the team that drafted them. how many finals appearances do they count for?

- I won't bother working out how many of those guys went to the finals more than once, because you get the picture. Instead we'll just look at Celtics18's original list that I added to and work out how many championships in the last 20 years were won by teams with their own top 5 pick/top 2 player on that championship team:

Hakeem Olajuwon x2
Isiah Thomas x2
Michael Jordan x6
Scottie Pippen counted in Jordan's 6 above so won't count twice.
Tim Duncan x5
David Robinson 1 of the above so won't count twice.
Dwayne Wade x3

We can see that of the last 25 NBA championships, 18 of them were won by teams that had their own top 5 pick/franchise player that they drafted.

Now imagine if the NBA had the age or college rule and Kobe Bryant had come through the NCAA system and we added him in there?

The argument is ridiculously one sided and if you think that having a top 5 pick doesn't mean anything, you're ignoring the numbers. If we made the criteria as having a top 10 pick then it just makes it amazing by adding guys like Pierce, Nowitzki etc..
 Furthermore, what makes me laugh is that people say 'that's fine, we don't need a top 5 pick, we'll just draft a franchise guy with our 12th pick and then sign another franchise guy via free agency' as if the 2008 scenario happens on a regular basis, and it's the better road to take- like it's easier than drafting a franchise guy.

As Danny Ainge says,

Transcendent superstars win NBA championships, and usually teams with more than one superstar.

If you look at that list of teams that made the NBA finals in the last 25 years, you'll see that superstars also attract other superstars.

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

I think you are over stating the importance of one common data point in the grand scheme of delivering a championship. Consider this, Kenyans have won the Boston Marathon pretty much year in year out since the middle of the 1980s. That doesn't prove that I could beat everybody on Celticsblog in a marathon. Heck I can't even finish one.

[Celtics18]

We can see that of the last 25 NBA championships, 18 of them were won by teams that had their own top 5 pick/franchise player that they drafted.

Nice post, Chambers.  I'm just going to focus on this statement for now.

Firstly, it looks like you are counting the 2004 Pistons as a team that won a championship player that they drafted in the top five.  I hardly think Darko Milicic counts as a franchise talent.

Secondly, if we make the sample size the last fifteen years as opposed to the last twenty-five years, we'll see that only seven of the last fifteen NBA champions have won their title with a franchise player that they drafted in the top five leading the way. 

Basically, it looks like the tide is changing in this century as to how to build an NBA champion.  I'm not saying that getting a top five draft pick isn't a really nice thing to have, but I am saying that it's not the only way to build a contender.

Granted, in the latter part of the twentieth century, it certainly seemed to be a rule that the way to win titles was to draft a Bird, Jordan, Magic, or Olajuwon in the top of the lottery, wait for them to grow into champions, and that was how titles were won.

In the more recent past, however, that formula isn't as cut in stone anymore.  The Lakers, the Mavericks, the Pistons, and the Celtics have all shown that to be the case.

[Tr1boy]

I will be happy to take a chance on looney, christmas, harvey, levert.

If ainge also really wants someone like stanley johnson he could trade up for him.

We will be ok

[Evantime34]

If we make the playoffs because our young guys are improving then it raises the quality of our assets that we could use to get a star.

Just because we don't get a top 5 pick this year that ends up leading our team doesn't mean it won't happen.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Nets are that bad next year. The nets could not make the playoffs this year, pick in the end of the first round and trade their large contracts for worse players to get the money off their books, they could be really bad next year.

[sofutomygaha]

We can see that of the last 25 NBA championships, 18 of them were won by teams that had their own top 6 pick/franchise player that they drafted.

Fun with sampling! Now that we've got Marcus Smart, we're all set.


BTW, did you know that Nene's real name is "Maybyner?" Just wanted you guys to know I did some deep research for this reply.

[chambers]

We can see that of the last 25 NBA championships, 18 of them were won by teams that had their own top 5 pick/franchise player that they drafted.

Nice post, Chambers.  I'm just going to focus on this statement for now.

Firstly, it looks like you are counting the 2004 Pistons as a team that won a championship player that they drafted in the top five.  I hardly think Darko Milicic counts as a franchise talent.

Secondly, if we make the sample size the last fifteen years as opposed to the last twenty-five years, we'll see that only seven of the last fifteen NBA champions have won their title with a franchise player that they drafted in the top five leading the way. 

Basically, it looks like the tide is changing in this century as to how to build an NBA champion.  I'm not saying that getting a top five draft pick isn't a really nice thing to have, but I am saying that it's not the only way to build a contender.

Granted, in the latter part of the twentieth century, it certainly seemed to be a rule that the way to win titles was to draft a Bird, Jordan, Magic, or Olajuwon in the top of the lottery, wait for them to grow into champions, and that was how titles were won.

In the more recent past, however, that formula isn't as cut in stone anymore.  The Lakers, the Mavericks, the Pistons, and the Celtics have all shown that to be the case.

Hey, thanks.

I included Isiash Thomas from the 1989-90 season when the Pistons won (they beat up MJ and that scorned him to greatness). They also won the year before that. But didn't include Darko lol.

7 out of 15 is 46.6% lol

Now if we look at teams that made the NBA finals in the last 15 years,
We have 19 teams out of 30 that made the finals with their own top 5 pick/top 2 player.
I forgot to add Iverson to the finalists list earlier too

Another hypothetical to debate the idea that in the modern NBA, things are changing....I think we can agree that if Kobe Bryant came out today as a rookie he'd go top 5 almost certainly given the scouting reports and age limits because he would have had to play either college or professionally in Europe, rather than coming over from high school. Nowitzki is in the same boat. Let's just use Kobe because he's the obvious one....

That would make the last 15 years:
12 out of 15 NBA champions or 80%

and

25 NBA finals teams out of a possible 30 finals teams or 83.3%

lol.
Notice how NBA championships are basically owned by the greatest players of all time? That's how hard it is to win a championship.
Next transcendent superstar to hoist multiple championships other than Lebron, Duncan and Wade looks like it will be Durant, Anthony Davis or Wiggins (calling it early but he's looking like a potential great atm) although Durant needs to insert himself into the right situation on a new team if they don't fire Scott Brooks.
Coaches and front offices are very important towards actual finals success and not just making the NBA finals.
If the Cavs win this year, can we count him in the 'Won a championship with the team that drafted him' category ? :p

[MBunge]

 Furthermore, what makes me laugh is that people say 'that's fine, we don't need a top 5 pick, we'll just draft a franchise guy with our 12th pick and then sign another franchise guy via free agency' as if the 2008 scenario happens on a regular basis, and it's the better road to take- like it's easier than drafting a franchise guy.

Who says that?  Who doesn't want the 5th pick instead of the 12th?  The question is what do you do to get it.  And if you make a list of all the Top 5 picks who NEVER made it to the Finals with their original team, that might help you understand why tanking is fool's gold.

Mike

[chambers]

 Furthermore, what makes me laugh is that people say 'that's fine, we don't need a top 5 pick, we'll just draft a franchise guy with our 12th pick and then sign another franchise guy via free agency' as if the 2008 scenario happens on a regular basis, and it's the better road to take- like it's easier than drafting a franchise guy.

Who says that?  Who doesn't want the 5th pick instead of the 12th?  The question is what do you do to get it.  And if you make a list of all the Top 5 picks who NEVER made it to the Finals with their original team, that might help you understand why tanking is fool's gold.

Mike

It depends on what your definition of tanking is. My definition of tanking is that we should be only letting our young guys and assets play. Bass, Prince, Thornton should be shut down. We aren't getting a first round pick for any of them and they are contributing to wins that are only hurting our mathematical chances at getting a better draft pick. I don't care if a line up of Marcus Smart
Avery Bradley
James Young
Kelly Olynyk
Sullinger

wins 50 games. They won't though because they are young and inexperienced. A side effect of letting our young, long term players and pieces play is that we should get a top 5 draft pick.

To the bolded part of your post;
The aim of the NBA is win a championship, correct?
If so, which teams and players win championships?
Of the players on those championship teams, what number were they drafted in their respective draft?
Of those teams, how many of them finished outside the bottom 10 teams the season before they drafted that franchise player? (or didn't have another teams lottery pick from an earlier trade)?

Your logic of 'look at all the top 5 picks who weren't on a championship team etc' is incorrect.
You should be saying:

'Looking at the last 25 years of NBA championships, who were the best players on each championship team and what position were they drafted?'

What's the answer to that question?
There is a specific, proven formula to increase your odds of winning NBA championships, and it involves NBA superstars who were once top 5 picks.

[Celtics18]

We can see that of the last 25 NBA championships, 18 of them were won by teams that had their own top 5 pick/franchise player that they drafted.

Nice post, Chambers.  I'm just going to focus on this statement for now.

Firstly, it looks like you are counting the 2004 Pistons as a team that won a championship player that they drafted in the top five.  I hardly think Darko Milicic counts as a franchise talent.

Secondly, if we make the sample size the last fifteen years as opposed to the last twenty-five years, we'll see that only seven of the last fifteen NBA champions have won their title with a franchise player that they drafted in the top five leading the way. 

Basically, it looks like the tide is changing in this century as to how to build an NBA champion.  I'm not saying that getting a top five draft pick isn't a really nice thing to have, but I am saying that it's not the only way to build a contender.

Granted, in the latter part of the twentieth century, it certainly seemed to be a rule that the way to win titles was to draft a Bird, Jordan, Magic, or Olajuwon in the top of the lottery, wait for them to grow into champions, and that was how titles were won.

In the more recent past, however, that formula isn't as cut in stone anymore.  The Lakers, the Mavericks, the Pistons, and the Celtics have all shown that to be the case.

Hey, thanks.

I included Isiash Thomas from the 1989-90 season when the Pistons won (they beat up MJ and that scorned him to greatness). They also won the year before that. But didn't include Darko lol.

7 out of 15 is 46.6% lol

Now if we look at teams that made the NBA finals in the last 15 years,
We have 19 teams out of 30 that made the finals with their own top 5 pick/top 2 player.
I forgot to add Iverson to the finalists list earlier too

Another hypothetical to debate the idea that in the modern NBA, things are changing....I think we can agree that if Kobe Bryant came out today as a rookie he'd go top 5 almost certainly given the scouting reports and age limits because he would have had to play either college or professionally in Europe, rather than coming over from high school. Nowitzki is in the same boat. Let's just use Kobe because he's the obvious one....

That would make the last 15 years:
12 out of 15 NBA champions or 80%

and

25 NBA finals teams out of a possible 30 finals teams or 83.3%

lol.
Notice how NBA championships are basically owned by the greatest players of all time? That's how hard it is to win a championship.
Next transcendent superstar to hoist multiple championships other than Lebron, Duncan and Wade looks like it will be Durant, Anthony Davis or Wiggins (calling it early but he's looking like a potential great atm) although Durant needs to insert himself into the right situation on a new team if they don't fire Scott Brooks.
Coaches and front offices are very important towards actual finals success and not just making the NBA finals.
If the Cavs win this year, can we count him in the 'Won a championship with the team that drafted him' category ? :p

This is the weakest part of your argument.  Stars picked outside the top five can and do still happen.

Look at Steph Curry, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Marc Gasol, Paul George, Andre Drummond, Paul Millsap, Rajon Rondo, and Kawhi Leonard as just a few recent examples of players who are either stars or potential stars.   

[chambers]

We can see that of the last 25 NBA championships, 18 of them were won by teams that had their own top 5 pick/franchise player that they drafted.

Nice post, Chambers.  I'm just going to focus on this statement for now.

Firstly, it looks like you are counting the 2004 Pistons as a team that won a championship player that they drafted in the top five.  I hardly think Darko Milicic counts as a franchise talent.

Secondly, if we make the sample size the last fifteen years as opposed to the last twenty-five years, we'll see that only seven of the last fifteen NBA champions have won their title with a franchise player that they drafted in the top five leading the way. 

Basically, it looks like the tide is changing in this century as to how to build an NBA champion.  I'm not saying that getting a top five draft pick isn't a really nice thing to have, but I am saying that it's not the only way to build a contender.

Granted, in the latter part of the twentieth century, it certainly seemed to be a rule that the way to win titles was to draft a Bird, Jordan, Magic, or Olajuwon in the top of the lottery, wait for them to grow into champions, and that was how titles were won.

In the more recent past, however, that formula isn't as cut in stone anymore.  The Lakers, the Mavericks, the Pistons, and the Celtics have all shown that to be the case.

Hey, thanks.

I included Isiash Thomas from the 1989-90 season when the Pistons won (they beat up MJ and that scorned him to greatness). They also won the year before that. But didn't include Darko lol.

7 out of 15 is 46.6% lol

Now if we look at teams that made the NBA finals in the last 15 years,
We have 19 teams out of 30 that made the finals with their own top 5 pick/top 2 player.
I forgot to add Iverson to the finalists list earlier too

Another hypothetical to debate the idea that in the modern NBA, things are changing....I think we can agree that if Kobe Bryant came out today as a rookie he'd go top 5 almost certainly given the scouting reports and age limits because he would have had to play either college or professionally in Europe, rather than coming over from high school. Nowitzki is in the same boat. Let's just use Kobe because he's the obvious one....

That would make the last 15 years:
12 out of 15 NBA champions or 80%

and

25 NBA finals teams out of a possible 30 finals teams or 83.3%

lol.
Notice how NBA championships are basically owned by the greatest players of all time? That's how hard it is to win a championship.
Next transcendent superstar to hoist multiple championships other than Lebron, Duncan and Wade looks like it will be Durant, Anthony Davis or Wiggins (calling it early but he's looking like a potential great atm) although Durant needs to insert himself into the right situation on a new team if they don't fire Scott Brooks.
Coaches and front offices are very important towards actual finals success and not just making the NBA finals.
If the Cavs win this year, can we count him in the 'Won a championship with the team that drafted him' category ? :p

This is the weakest part of your argument.  Stars picked outside the top five can and do still happen.

Look at Steph Curry, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Marc Gasol, Paul George, Andre Drummond, Paul Millsap, Rajon Rondo, and Kawhi Leonard as just a few recent examples of players who are either stars or potential stars.   

But what's weak about it?
It's the truth.

Championship teams and teams that make the NBA finals have that in common.
And which of those guys above have won championships as a top 2 player? Kwahi Leonard? Guess who was on his team...a number one pick/franchise player named Tim Duncan....

I'm not saying it can't be done, but the numbers say that you need an All Star level player that develops into a franchise level player to win a championship. Franchise guys are generally picked in the top 5.

[MBunge]

 Furthermore, what makes me laugh is that people say 'that's fine, we don't need a top 5 pick, we'll just draft a franchise guy with our 12th pick and then sign another franchise guy via free agency' as if the 2008 scenario happens on a regular basis, and it's the better road to take- like it's easier than drafting a franchise guy.

Who says that?  Who doesn't want the 5th pick instead of the 12th?  The question is what do you do to get it.  And if you make a list of all the Top 5 picks who NEVER made it to the Finals with their original team, that might help you understand why tanking is fool's gold.

Mike

It depends on what your definition of tanking is. My definition of tanking is that we should be only letting our young guys and assets play. Bass, Prince, Thornton should be shut down. We aren't getting a first round pick for any of them and they are contributing to wins that are only hurting our mathematical chances at getting a better draft pick. I don't care if a line up of Marcus Smart
Avery Bradley
James Young
Kelly Olynyk
Sullinger

wins 50 games. They won't though because they are young and inexperienced. A side effect of letting our young, long term players and pieces play is that we should get a top 5 draft pick.

To the bolded part of your post;
The aim of the NBA is win a championship, correct?
If so, which teams and players win championships?
Of the players on those championship teams, what number were they drafted in their respective draft?
Of those teams, how many of them finished outside the bottom 10 teams the season before they drafted that franchise player? (or didn't have another teams lottery pick from an earlier trade)?

Your logic of 'look at all the top 5 picks who weren't on a championship team etc' is incorrect.
You should be saying:

'Looking at the last 25 years of NBA championships, who were the best players on each championship team and what position were they drafted?'

What's the answer to that question?
There is a specific, proven formula to increase your odds of winning NBA championships, and it involves NBA superstars who were once top 5 picks.

You are dodging the question.  How many top 5 picks NEVER make it to the Finals, especially not with the team that drafted them?  This dumb tanking argument is always slanted by the suggestion that "tank=win" when the reality is that NBA teams have been sucking and getting high picks forever without winning titles.

Mike

[chambers]

 Furthermore, what makes me laugh is that people say 'that's fine, we don't need a top 5 pick, we'll just draft a franchise guy with our 12th pick and then sign another franchise guy via free agency' as if the 2008 scenario happens on a regular basis, and it's the better road to take- like it's easier than drafting a franchise guy.

Who says that?  Who doesn't want the 5th pick instead of the 12th?  The question is what do you do to get it.  And if you make a list of all the Top 5 picks who NEVER made it to the Finals with their original team, that might help you understand why tanking is fool's gold.

Mike

It depends on what your definition of tanking is. My definition of tanking is that we should be only letting our young guys and assets play. Bass, Prince, Thornton should be shut down. We aren't getting a first round pick for any of them and they are contributing to wins that are only hurting our mathematical chances at getting a better draft pick. I don't care if a line up of Marcus Smart
Avery Bradley
James Young
Kelly Olynyk
Sullinger

wins 50 games. They won't though because they are young and inexperienced. A side effect of letting our young, long term players and pieces play is that we should get a top 5 draft pick.

To the bolded part of your post;
The aim of the NBA is win a championship, correct?
If so, which teams and players win championships?
Of the players on those championship teams, what number were they drafted in their respective draft?
Of those teams, how many of them finished outside the bottom 10 teams the season before they drafted that franchise player? (or didn't have another teams lottery pick from an earlier trade)?

Your logic of 'look at all the top 5 picks who weren't on a championship team etc' is incorrect.
You should be saying:

'Looking at the last 25 years of NBA championships, who were the best players on each championship team and what position were they drafted?'

What's the answer to that question?
There is a specific, proven formula to increase your odds of winning NBA championships, and it involves NBA superstars who were once top 5 picks.

You are dodging the question.  How many top 5 picks NEVER make it to the Finals, especially not with the team that drafted them?  This dumb tanking argument is always slanted by the suggestion that "tank=win" when the reality is that NBA teams have been sucking and getting high picks forever without winning titles.

Mike

You're kidding right?
To answer the question- I have no idea how many top 5 picks NEVER make the NBA finals, especially with the team that drafted them. That's not the point, the point is that to even have a chance at winning an NBA title, you need to draft a transcendent player and the records show that these caliber players are taken in the top 5 of the NBA draft.

Do you understand the problem with the logic of your statement?

Now tell me, of the last 25 years of NBA finals teams, which teams made it without a top 5 pick of their own, or without a top 5 pick in general?
THAT is the question you should be asking. Find the answer in the posts above.

Of the top 50 players in NBA history, what was the average position they were picked?

Lol I'm still laughing at your logic- you're completely missing the point to bolster your own argument without realizing it.

Again, 19 out of the last 30 NBA finals teams made the finals with their own top 5 pick. That's not including top 5 picked players that they traded for or signed as a free agent....