Furthermore, what makes me laugh is that people say 'that's fine, we don't need a top 5 pick, we'll just draft a franchise guy with our 12th pick and then sign another franchise guy via free agency' as if the 2008 scenario happens on a regular basis, and it's the better road to take- like it's easier than drafting a franchise guy.
Who says that? Who doesn't want the 5th pick instead of the 12th? The question is what do you do to get it. And if you make a list of all the Top 5 picks who NEVER made it to the Finals with their original team, that might help you understand why tanking is fool's gold.
Mike
It depends on what your definition of tanking is. My definition of tanking is that we should be only letting our young guys and assets play. Bass, Prince, Thornton should be shut down. We aren't getting a first round pick for any of them and they are contributing to wins that are only hurting our mathematical chances at getting a better draft pick. I don't care if a line up of Marcus Smart
Avery Bradley
James Young
Kelly Olynyk
Sullinger
wins 50 games. They won't though because they are young and inexperienced. A side effect of letting our young, long term players and pieces play is that we should get a top 5 draft pick.
To the bolded part of your post;
The aim of the NBA is win a championship, correct?
If so, which teams and players win championships?
Of the players on those championship teams, what number were they drafted in their respective draft?
Of those teams, how many of them finished outside the bottom 10 teams the season before they drafted that franchise player? (or didn't have another teams lottery pick from an earlier trade)?
Your logic of 'look at all the top 5 picks who weren't on a championship team etc' is incorrect.
You should be saying:
'Looking at the last 25 years of NBA championships, who were the best players on each championship team and what position were they drafted?'
What's the answer to that question?
There is a specific, proven formula to increase your odds of winning NBA championships, and it involves NBA superstars who were once top 5 picks.
You are dodging the question. How many top 5 picks NEVER make it to the Finals, especially not with the team that drafted them? This dumb tanking argument is always slanted by the suggestion that "tank=win" when the reality is that NBA teams have been sucking and getting high picks forever without winning titles.
Mike
You're kidding right?
To answer the question- I have no idea how many top 5 picks NEVER make the NBA finals, especially with the team that drafted them. That's not the point, the point is that to even have a chance at winning an NBA title, you need to draft a transcendent player and the records show that these caliber players are taken in the top 5 of the NBA draft.
Do you understand the problem with the logic of your statement?
Now tell me, of the last 25 years of NBA finals teams, which teams made it without a top 5 pick of their own, or without a top 5 pick in general?
THAT is the question you should be asking. Find the answer in the posts above.
Of the top 50 players in NBA history, what was the average position they were picked?
Lol I'm still laughing at your logic- you're completely missing the point to bolster your own argument without realizing it.
Again, 19 out of the last 30 NBA finals teams made the finals with their own top 5 pick. That's not including top 5 picked players that they traded for or signed as a free agent....
And again, how many top 5 picks in that same time frame DID NOT make it to the Finals with their original team? It's not like that is secret information. Why are you apparently afraid of it? Is it because you suspect that most top 5 picks NEVER make it to the Finals, let alone make it with the team who originally picked them?
Again, and I'm not sure why this logic is so hard for you to grasp, the assumption underlying this dumb tanking argument is that "tanking=winning" and that is simply NOT the case. Teams have been horrible and getting high draft picks because of it for decades and most of them have NEVER made the Finals or even gotten close.
Mike
Surely you're just trolling right?
You keep reverting to this 'tanking is winning' line like everyone who wants to tank believes that we are winning a championship if we tank. No one is saying that. I am not saying that.
I am saying that if you want to make the NBA finals, the math says that you need a top 5 pick as a bare minimum. From those top 5 picks, the greatest players (and the ones who predominately run the table in NBA championship history) are selected. No one is saying that all top 5 picks are predestined to become NBA championship contenders. We are saying that if you look at the history, the numbers, the evidence- that the greatest players to play the game are almost unequivocally picked in the top 5 picks in their draft.
Your logic has NOTHING to do with winning championships- you're asking a rhetorical and completely irrelevant question. What is the point of playing in the NBA? Is it to win championships? Is that the goal at hand here? If so, we can look at the past 30 years of NBA finals history and see that players picked at a certain position in the NBA draft, tend to dominate NBA finals appearances and results.
If you're trolling me, you've succeeded but I think you've actually trolled yourself.
Lets look at this from another angle which might suit your twisted logic....
How many players picked outside the top 5 in their respective NBA drafts, lead their team to the NBA finals in the last 30 years?
You still keep dodging the issue.
You say "Top 5 pick = win a championship, so tank for a top 5 pick."
I point out "The overwhelming majority of top 5 picks don't win a title with the team that drafted them."
After that, I don't really understand your argument.
Mike
Mike, He says, I want a top 5 pick because most studs come out of the top 5 and you need a stud to win (by stud I mean superstar, not just very good player)
You say: Most top 5 picks dont get to the finals so tanking doesnt really work all that well because getting the top 5 pick is only the first step the next is hoping that there is a stud in the draft and then identifying him, selecting him, and surrounding him with other stars before he gets p---ed and leaves. This is hard to do because you have been intentionally sucking so the talent isnt there yet.
You both make good points.
It is hard to find the stud to turn it all around and once you have him its hard to get the right talent around him. (Lebron, Cousins, Melo, KG, are all proving/ have proved how hard it is)
Even OKC who hit the jackpot 3x in a row with Harden Durant Westbrook werent able to win a title, although they made it to a Championship.
Several teams have gotten stuck in tanking cycles because of as you put it the "fools gold" of the lottery.
That being said its not like there are a whole lot more avenues to acquire this superstar. They rarely become available in FA and if they do its just as unlikely that they sign here that we win the lotto in a tanking scenario. Right now, we have to hope and pray that the Nets are bad enough that we have that opportunity to strike gold in the top 5 year without having to tear it all down.
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