Celtics (7-14) at Sixers (2-21) Game #22 12/15/14

[Tr1boy]

Injured?
Sully and Bradley 
Package them and a draft pick, what do we get.

A really good player, because teams don't just get to give up garbage for a 22-year old that has shown David West-potential, a 24-year old that has shown Aaron Afflalo 2.0-potential and a pick.

I would do it for Greg Monroe.

I would burn down Danny Ainge's house if he made that deal.

David West was a much better defender.

David West has never not played next to an imposing shot-blocker or behind an elite perimeter defender. The worst center he has played next to is Emeka Okafor. Between the Hornets and Indiana, West was the second line of defense for either Chris Paul or Paul George. Not surprisingly, the year Tyson Chandler left the team and CP3 went down with injury, West posted a career low in defensive rating (or should I say career high: 110 pts. allowed per 100 possessions).

There is neither a single statistic nor professional analysis that suggests that Sully is anything less than an average defender despite being surrounded by mediocre defenders.

So we have to hide Sully's bad defense with a better defender. And then when everyone's stats go up because we have this player x, we can then say Sully is a good defender? Good points you make.

Nah. Sully's an average to above-average defender. Playing next to an average defensive center he will hold his own. Playing next to a great shot-blocker he can lock down his man from time to time. Playing next to what we have and he will not play anything more than above-average defense.

If he was an above average defender he wouldn't need another player to show his value.

I think you only look at his man to man defense and you're over looking his slow rotations and inability to plug the driving lanes.

Maybe he loses the weight and his rotations become cleaner and he gets to the spots he needs. Right now he looks out of shape and slow.

Have a hard time believing that when the C's are a net positive defensively with Sully on the floor and a net negative when KO, whose lack of team defense you have been less critical of, is on the floor.

Perhaps the stats lie. I'm guessing in this case, they do not.

There was a streak of games where KO caused issues for the team defensively. Then again was it fair that he had to guard Centers? or overhelp and pickup quick fouls??    Where was Sullinger to help out on the weakside defense? 

You watch games against the Lakers,  Bulls (when we won), tonight and a list of other games where not having KO on the floor makes us a worse defensively.

Each guy has their pros and cons on the defensive end. Both need to improve their bodies to become better, consistent defenders. Not against certain matchups

[KeepRondo]

Injured?
Sully and Bradley 
Package them and a draft pick, what do we get.

A really good player, because teams don't just get to give up garbage for a 22-year old that has shown David West-potential, a 24-year old that has shown Aaron Afflalo 2.0-potential and a pick.

I would do it for Greg Monroe.

I would burn down Danny Ainge's house if he made that deal.

David West was a much better defender.

David West has never not played next to an imposing shot-blocker or behind an elite perimeter defender. The worst center he has played next to is Emeka Okafor. Between the Hornets and Indiana, West was the second line of defense for either Chris Paul or Paul George. Not surprisingly, the year Tyson Chandler left the team and CP3 went down with injury, West posted a career low in defensive rating (or should I say career high: 110 pts. allowed per 100 possessions).

There is neither a single statistic nor professional analysis that suggests that Sully is anything less than an average defender despite being surrounded by mediocre defenders.

So we have to hide Sully's bad defense with a better defender. And then when everyone's stats go up because we have this player x, we can then say Sully is a good defender? Good points you make.

Nah. Sully's an average to above-average defender. Playing next to an average defensive center he will hold his own. Playing next to a great shot-blocker he can lock down his man from time to time. Playing next to what we have and he will not play anything more than above-average defense.

If he was an above average defender he wouldn't need another player to show his value.

I think you only look at his man to man defense and you're over looking his slow rotations and inability to plug the driving lanes.

Maybe he loses the weight and his rotations become cleaner and he gets to the spots he needs. Right now he looks out of shape and slow.

Have a hard time believing that when the C's are a net positive defensively with Sully on the floor and a net negative when KO, whose lack of team defense you have been less critical of, is on the floor.

Perhaps the stats lie. I'm guessing in this case, they do not.

There are four other players on the floor that directly impact the stats. The stats you are using have way too many variables to account for.

You are just a NBA stat geek trying to understand a game you dont understand by using stats incorrectly.

And I'm not addressing you any further on these boards. You honestly can have the last word. I'm done.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Man, why can't you guys just say good job to a player without having to put them up vs. someone else on the team?

[TheFlex]

Injured?
Sully and Bradley 
Package them and a draft pick, what do we get.

A really good player, because teams don't just get to give up garbage for a 22-year old that has shown David West-potential, a 24-year old that has shown Aaron Afflalo 2.0-potential and a pick.

I would do it for Greg Monroe.

I would burn down Danny Ainge's house if he made that deal.

David West was a much better defender.

David West has never not played next to an imposing shot-blocker or behind an elite perimeter defender. The worst center he has played next to is Emeka Okafor. Between the Hornets and Indiana, West was the second line of defense for either Chris Paul or Paul George. Not surprisingly, the year Tyson Chandler left the team and CP3 went down with injury, West posted a career low in defensive rating (or should I say career high: 110 pts. allowed per 100 possessions).

There is neither a single statistic nor professional analysis that suggests that Sully is anything less than an average defender despite being surrounded by mediocre defenders.

So we have to hide Sully's bad defense with a better defender. And then when everyone's stats go up because we have this player x, we can then say Sully is a good defender? Good points you make.

Nah. Sully's an average to above-average defender. Playing next to an average defensive center he will hold his own. Playing next to a great shot-blocker he can lock down his man from time to time. Playing next to what we have and he will not play anything more than above-average defense.

If he was an above average defender he wouldn't need another player to show his value.

I think you only look at his man to man defense and you're over looking his slow rotations and inability to plug the driving lanes.

Maybe he loses the weight and his rotations become cleaner and he gets to the spots he needs. Right now he looks out of shape and slow.

Have a hard time believing that when the C's are a net positive defensively with Sully on the floor and a net negative when KO, whose lack of team defense you have been less critical of, is on the floor.

Perhaps the stats lie. I'm guessing in this case, they do not.

There was a streak of games where KO caused issues for the team defensively. Then again was it fair that he had to guard Centers? or overhelp and pickup quick fouls??    Where was Sullinger to help out on the weakside defense? 

You watch games against the Lakers,  Bulls (when we won), tonight and a list of other games where not having KO on the floor makes us a worse defensively.

Each guy has their pros and cons on the defensive end. Both need to improve their bodies to become better, consistent defenders. Not against certain matchups

When KO is on the floor with Sully, Sully guards the opposing center. You should be asking whether it's fair or not that Sully has had to guard centers with no help for close to 1.5 seasons now.

Injured?
Sully and Bradley 
Package them and a draft pick, what do we get.

A really good player, because teams don't just get to give up garbage for a 22-year old that has shown David West-potential, a 24-year old that has shown Aaron Afflalo 2.0-potential and a pick.

I would do it for Greg Monroe.

I would burn down Danny Ainge's house if he made that deal.

David West was a much better defender.

David West has never not played next to an imposing shot-blocker or behind an elite perimeter defender. The worst center he has played next to is Emeka Okafor. Between the Hornets and Indiana, West was the second line of defense for either Chris Paul or Paul George. Not surprisingly, the year Tyson Chandler left the team and CP3 went down with injury, West posted a career low in defensive rating (or should I say career high: 110 pts. allowed per 100 possessions).

There is neither a single statistic nor professional analysis that suggests that Sully is anything less than an average defender despite being surrounded by mediocre defenders.

So we have to hide Sully's bad defense with a better defender. And then when everyone's stats go up because we have this player x, we can then say Sully is a good defender? Good points you make.

Nah. Sully's an average to above-average defender. Playing next to an average defensive center he will hold his own. Playing next to a great shot-blocker he can lock down his man from time to time. Playing next to what we have and he will not play anything more than above-average defense.

If he was an above average defender he wouldn't need another player to show his value.

I think you only look at his man to man defense and you're over looking his slow rotations and inability to plug the driving lanes.

Maybe he loses the weight and his rotations become cleaner and he gets to the spots he needs. Right now he looks out of shape and slow.

Have a hard time believing that when the C's are a net positive defensively with Sully on the floor and a net negative when KO, whose lack of team defense you have been less critical of, is on the floor.

Perhaps the stats lie. I'm guessing in this case, they do not.

There are four other players on the floor that directly impact the stats. The stats you are using have way too many variables to account for.

You are just a NBA stat geek trying to understand a game you dont understand by using stats incorrectly.

And I'm not addressing you any further on these boards. You honestly can have the last word. I'm done.

When the stats agree with you, you don't seem to care where they come from. When they don't, I'm just a "stat geek" who "doesn't understand the game." The stat measures whenever Sully or Olynyk are on the floor regardless of who they are playing with. Those four teammates change throughout the game. There is deviation for sure (hence: "Perhaps the stats lie"), but not to extent you are suggesting ("I'm guessing in this case, they do not").

For someone who frequently tells me to "chill," you certainly get riled up quickly when I challenge your often unconfirmed, flimsy observations.

[D.o.s.]

... at least we still beat the Lakers?

either way, to add my two cents: Olynyk probably has less upside than Sullinger, and is almost certainly a worse defender. Doesn't mean I want to consign him to the bottom of the depth chart, but it is what it is. They've got different strengths and weaknesses, for the most part -- the biggest issue is that it appears they both need a Garnett-type to be on the floor with them in order to play even average defense.

[TheFlex]

Man, why can't you guys just say good job to a player without having to put them up vs. someone else on the team?

I give KO credit where credit is due. He had a great game. Sully did not. This question should be directed towards those who call Sully fat and ineffective every time an Olynyk shot goes in or he "tries" on D.

Kinda like how when Smart has a great game, Rondo fans applaud and Rondo haters use the performance to smear Rondo.

[D.o.s.]

Man, why can't you guys just say good job to a player without having to put them up vs. someone else on the team?

I give KO credit where credit is due. He had a great game. Sully did not. This question should be directed towards those who call Sully fat and ineffective every time an Olynyk shot goes in or he "tries" on D.

Kinda like how when Smart has a great game, Rondo fans applaud and Rondo haters use the performance to smear Rondo.

Absolutely agreed.

[Tr1boy]

The Flex , stats don't mean everything my friend.  For someone who doesn't watch NBA ball, sees Rondo's stats might think he is a top 3 player in the league. When that is far from the truth. His defense overall has been mediocre, especially man to man defense and look at our W/L

There are alot of things done in the court that is not counted by "stats".   KO imo fills up alot of these non stats.   For example if there was a stat for attempts to contest jump shots from the perimeter, KO would prob be one of the tops in the league as a PF/C.  It does make a difference in the end bc you can't be too comfortable to shoot the ball seeing a 7 footer rushing at you

How many picks does KO set each game??  He is running around setting picks after picks, secondary picks, giving guys like Jeff Green more space and a second longer to make a jump shot. AB to make the jump shot. 

Where is this counted in NBA stats?

[TheFlex]

Man, why can't you guys just say good job to a player without having to put them up vs. someone else on the team?

I give KO credit where credit is due. He had a great game. Sully did not. This question should be directed towards those who call Sully fat and ineffective every time an Olynyk shot goes in or he "tries" on D.

Kinda like how when Smart has a great game, Rondo fans applaud and Rondo haters use the performance to smear Rondo.

Absolutely agreed.

Thank you, kind veteran of the CB forums.

[Beat LA]

Will we ever see KO score in the post again?  I think I've only seen him do so about 3-4 times in his entire career, lol .  Yes, he's a good shooter, but post play was supposed to be one of his main selling points coming out of college, and haven't seen ANYTHING in the pros.  Am I the only one who notices and is bothered by it, haha?

[oldtype]

Will we ever see KO score in the post again?  I think I've only seen him do so about 3-4 times in his entire career, lol .  Yes, he's a good shooter, but post play was supposed to be one of his main selling points coming out of college, and haven't seen ANYTHING in the pros.  Am I the only one who notices and is bothered by it, haha?

Given the sort of guys that are defending him, I figure shooting/driving is the much more efficient play anyway.

[TheFlex]

The Flex , stats don't mean everything my friend.  For someone who doesn't watch NBA ball, sees Rondo's stats might think he is a top 3 player in the league. When that is far from the truth. His defense overall has been mediocre, especially man to man defense and look at our W/L

There are alot of things done in the court that is not counted by "stats".   KO imo fills up alot of these non stats.   For example if there was a stat for attempts to contest jump shots from the perimeter, KO would prob be one of the tops in the league as a PF/C.  It does make a difference in the end bc you can't be too comfortable to shoot the ball seeing a 7 footer rushing at you

How many picks does KO make each game??  He is running around making picks after picks, secondary picks, giving guys like Jeff Green more space and a second longer to make a jump shot. AB to make the jump shot. 

Where is this counted in NBA stats?

Rondo is averaging like 8 points a game and has terrible advanced stats for a player of his reputation. Don't think anyone believes he's a top 3 player no matter what they look at.

As for your second point, I never said stats answer everything. If you read my posts it is usually a mix of personal observations and statistical proof. Apparently some around here cannot stand the sight of a simple +/- analysis without crying over the great detriment that "advanced" stats have inflicted upon the game.

Most of the stuff you mentioned is obscurely tracked by +/-, on/off court splits, etc. I'm about to go to bed as I have a Final exam tomorrow, but I do know off the top of my head (that's cranium space I should be using to store economic theories for tomorrow's test) that the team is statistically better in terms of defense with Sully on the floor, and statistically worse in terms of defense with Olynyk on the floor. And again, Sully is the one most often unfairly tasked with guarding opposing centers, not Olynyk.

[hwangjini_1]

Man, why can't you guys just say good job to a player without having to put them up vs. someone else on the team?

here, here!! the celtics won, time to rejoice on this board.

[Beat LA]

Will we ever see KO score in the post again?  I think I've only seen him do so about 3-4 times in his entire career, lol .  Yes, he's a good shooter, but post play was supposed to be one of his main selling points coming out of college, and haven't seen ANYTHING in the pros.  Am I the only one who notices and is bothered by it, haha?

Given the sort of guys that are defending him, I figure shooting/driving is the much more efficient play anyway.

I get that, but wouldn't it be better to get those guys in foul trouble, instead?  That's just my personal preference, though.

[Beat LA]

Switching gears for a moment, I thought that that story about Bill Green was hilarious, lol .  Did anyone else catch that during the broadcast?