Author Topic: Brad Stevens and the motion offense  (Read 10648 times)

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Re: Brad Stevens and the motion offense
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2014, 11:19:16 AM »

Offline littleteapot

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You need to get out more.   Our bigs are alarmingly not athletic.  They can't play D, no coach on the planet could make Sully or KO fast or able to react more and we get lit up by any team with solid bigs.   That being said both KO and Sully are decent passers and can be nifty on the offensive end.

Stevens has this team winning games they should not all the time.   He has got Turner to play decent, got Crawford last year to toe the line.   He coached a mid major to the NCAA finals twice, I am pretty sure, he knows what he is doing.  As for strengths we have some guys particularly our bigs who can play on only one end.    Flawed roster, lies more on Ainge, but then I do not think he wanted us to win this year but the coming picks, but to improve from last year and develop talent.   We do not have a rim protector.   Our bigs are horrible on D.  We lack a go to scorer.  Stevens can't just crap that out of his rear.  The personnel here are haven game in and game out to be woefully inadequate in these regards.  Playing zone would help some with the slow bigs but teams that shoot will light us up even more and zone is not something you can always play in the NBA.
Zeller, Bradley and Smart are all great athletes and Rondo, Turner and Bass are good athletes. Everyone but Zeller has unique skills. I agree with you that Sullinger and Olynyk are subpar talents, but there are plenty of talented guys on the team. The problem is the best athletes on the team are a rookie (Smart) and a bunch of guys who only are only good at two things.

I think we've stayed in some games because we get out on the break; our halfcourt offense is pretty horrible.

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Pretty sure Brad Stevens didn't make any of these passes or set the screens.   You can't play it both ways.   Maybe they are not talented enough to screen and pass or is it the coaches fault.  They have to pump fake because they are not athletic enough to go straight up in our big's cases.   We have some guys like Green that can over power their man with athletic ability.   Rondo used to be able to do so.   Oly and Sully can not.  Sully has a nice jump hook and can sometimes use his butt to do so, but he has struggled against length.
I don't expect a twig like Bradley to ever be a good screener, but screening is not an advanced skill for a pro basketball player. Bass and Olynyk should be above average screeners. They just need to actually put their bodies in the right place and stop slipping the screen when they shouldn't. I understand that someone like Olynyk will need to sometimes pump fake once or twice, but if you are pump-faking 5 times it's just indecision. And I'm sorry, regardless of how far you fell in the draft, if a guy is wide open you need to be able to pass it to him without the ball going 5 feet over his head. I think they are screwing this stuff up because their thinking about the offense instead of just reacting and making a play.

The other thing is that I don't think teams should have the same options/progressions for every player at the same position. If Bradley has an option to set a screen, he should only do it as a last resort. The screen has about a 90% chance of accomplishing nothing. That's what I think is the Celtics' problem. They have players with incomplete skillsets who are great at some stuff and terrible at other stuff, and it doesn't look like any thought is put into how to put them in a position where they can do what they're great at. There's too much "this is our lineup, lets just run the offense" instead of picking a lineup that makes the actual strengths of our players tough for a particular team to defend, and emphasizing a few ways to exploit your advantages.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 11:48:01 AM by littleteapot »
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Re: Brad Stevens and the motion offense
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2014, 11:25:03 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I don't think the C's are lacking in talent.

You need to get out more.

As they say on the Internet, I lol'd.
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Re: Brad Stevens and the motion offense
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2014, 11:40:31 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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You need to get out more.   Our bigs are alarmingly not athletic.  They can't play D, no coach on the planet could make Sully or KO fast or able to react more and we get lit up by any team with solid bigs.   That being said both KO and Sully are decent passers and can be nifty on the offensive end.

Stevens has this team winning games they should not all the time.   He has got Turner to play decent, got Crawford last year to toe the line.   He coached a mid major to the NCAA finals twice, I am pretty sure, he knows what he is doing.  As for strengths we have some guys particularly our bigs who can play on only one end.    Flawed roster, lies more on Ainge, but then I do not think he wanted us to win this year but the coming picks, but to improve from last year and develop talent.   We do not have a rim protector.   Our bigs are horrible on D.  We lack a go to scorer.  Stevens can't just crap that out of his rear.  The personnel here are haven game in and game out to be woefully inadequate in these regards.  Playing zone would help some with the slow bigs but teams that shoot will light us up even more and zone is not something you can always play in the NBA.
Zeller, Bradley and Smart are all great athletes and Rondo, Turner and Bass are good athletes. Everyone but Zeller has unique skills. I agree with you that Sullinger and Olynyk are subpar talents, but there are plenty of talented guys on the team. The problem is the best athletes on the team are a rookie (Smart) and a bunch of guys who only are only good at two things.

I think we've stayed in some games because we get out on the break; our halfcourt offense is pretty horrible.
say what?  subpar talents?  I could understand if you were complaining about their athleticism but as far as overall talents, I don't agree they're subpar.  Sully in fact is looking very much like a starting-caliber PF

Re: Brad Stevens and the motion offense
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2014, 12:09:29 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Last night it looked like the Celtics were trying to make the recipe without the ingredients.

Passes were sailing over people's heads, screens never actually seemed to move defenders, and once the C's finally got a shot it seemed like a lot of the time the guy pump faked 5 times and then turned it over.


The "getting in people's way" discussion remind me of Spencer Tracy's advice on acting:
"Show up on time, know your lines and don't bump into the furniture"

TP. We're a mess. I think our talent level is below what our record speaks of it to be.

I don't think you can recognize NBA talent.

We've got two players who would start for most teams in the league (Rondo and Green).
We've got another that would be a top 9 rotation guy on even the best teams in the league (Bass).
We've got two more guys who would be rotation players on most NBA teams (Thorton and Bradley).
We've got another who is overcoming a sketchy past to start looking like a rotation player (Turner).
We've got three young players who have all had many moments of looking like decent to good NBA players (Sully, KO and Zeller).
And we've got another young player all the experts are raving about (Smart).

If you haven't seen teams with less talent win games in the NBA, you haven't been watching much basketball.
If you don't realize that most teams in the NBA are as good as their best player, you haven't been watching much basketball either. Or to qualify this statement a little bit, having a great player is a necessary (though not always sufficient) condition for having a great NBA team.
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Re: Brad Stevens and the motion offense
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2014, 01:22:07 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Zeller, Bradley and Smart are all great athletes and Rondo, Turner and Bass are good athletes. Everyone but Zeller has unique skills.

We definitely have different definitions of a good athlete.  Zeller is an ok athlete but known as a good runner rather than a lights out athlete.  Bradley is undersized but decent athlete.   Smart is above average but he doesn't blow by guys like he did in college because he can't bully them as easily.   I think Rondo was once an elite athlete, but now I am not so sure.   Bass is a good athlete.   Turner is average in athletic ability and known for his shooting.

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I don't expect a twig like Bradley to ever be a good screener, but screening is not an advanced skill for a pro basketball player. Bass and Olynyk should be above average screeners. They just need to actually put their bodies in the right place and stop slipping the screen when they shouldn't.

I think screening is done poorly every level of the game.   Shoulder to shoulder, so the screenee can't get through the screen is rarely done at any level because players do not relish the contact.   There are a lot of half effort screens at every level of basketball.

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I understand that someone like Olynyk will need to sometimes pump fake once or twice, but if you are pump-faking 5 times it's just indecision.
   Caused by his inability to shoot over guys.  I do think he hesistates too much, I wish he would take the first jumper when he gets open as with his speed the defender can react and contain him.   Some of it is confidence but getting swatted will do that to a guy.  He usually passes well if he gets in trouble.


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And I'm sorry, regardless of how far you fell in the draft, if a guy is wide open you need to be able to pass it to him without the ball going 5 feet over his head. I think they are screwing this stuff up because their thinking about the offense instead of just reacting and making a play.

If they do not know the offense by now, they should not be pros.   I think the opposite because of some guys limitations they have to think  because they can't  blow by or go over guys.

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The other thing is that I don't think teams should have the same options/progressions for every player at the same position. If Bradley has an option to set a screen, he should only do it as a last resort. The screen has about a 90% chance of accomplishing nothing. That's what I think is the Celtics' problem. They have players with incomplete skillsets who are great at some stuff and terrible at other stuff, and it doesn't look like any thought is put into how to put them in a position where they can do what they're great at.

Bigs are the best screeners for two reasons.   1) They have the body to knock a player out of the defensive picture,  2) They can roll for a secondary threat.   I have not seen AB screen a lot in this system, he usually drops down to the elbow extended or the corner.  Usually is it is a big in the high post.   


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There's too much "this is our lineup, lets just run the offense" instead of picking a lineup that makes the actual strengths of our players tough for a particular team to defend, and emphasizing a few ways to exploit your advantages.
 

That may be but are advantages are not many.  System coaches or guys who do not adapt their system like Pitino, I think make the worst pro coaches.   I 'd like to see what Stevens could do with some real talent and not the hodge podge roster that is the Boston Celtics.   I still root for us to win once the games start.  Our team is fun to watch but we will be hard pressed to have one all star this year.   Green deserves it, too, I think.

Re: Brad Stevens and the motion offense
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2014, 01:33:08 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I understand that someone like Olynyk will need to sometimes pump fake once or twice, but if you are pump-faking 5 times it's just indecision.
   Caused by his inability to shoot over guys.  I do think he hesistates too much, I wish he would take the first jumper when he gets open as with his speed the defender can react and contain him.   Some of it is confidence but getting swatted will do that to a guy.  He usually passes well if he gets in trouble.
Olynyk seems to have an odd-looking low release point, especially visible on in-between shots. Don't know whether it's an inability to palm the ball, but he never seems to extend fully on those jump hooks and floaters.
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Re: Brad Stevens and the motion offense
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2014, 02:32:30 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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I understand that someone like Olynyk will need to sometimes pump fake once or twice, but if you are pump-faking 5 times it's just indecision.
   Caused by his inability to shoot over guys.  I do think he hesistates too much, I wish he would take the first jumper when he gets open as with his speed the defender can react and contain him.   Some of it is confidence but getting swatted will do that to a guy.  He usually passes well if he gets in trouble.
Olynyk seems to have an odd-looking low release point, especially visible on in-between shots. Don't know whether it's an inability to palm the ball, but he never seems to extend fully on those jump hooks and floaters.
Bingo.  I've been saying this for a while.  It compromises his ability to get shots off.  The anti-nowitzki form.