Brad Stevens and the motion offense

[mmmmm]

Could you talk a bit more about that?

Can generally be summarized by "don't get in the way of people trying to do stuff" (bringing your defender to them in the process). In the particular case of this video, I saw at least one example of Olynyk plodding around the lane when Rondo was trying to drive.

Yes, I noticed that too.  At two points in the sequence he pinches off Rondo's path.  The second time, I will grant that he did it to clear his man away from where Bass was moving to, which ended up being the actual shot taken.

This illustrates the difficulty of running this offense because a player can't just read and react with a move that he thinks individually will lead to say, his advantage.  He has to also think instinctively about how the rest of his team will read and react to the same situation so that they all move in a complementary manner.

The top play "worked" when all three of Bass, Rondo & KO all finally "read" the collapse of both RR & KO's defenders and the open look being created above the FT line for Bass.

Ultimately, getting into the level of 'sync' with each other to play anywhere close to the level that the Spurs do is going to take a LOT more experience with each other in this system.  The Spurs have been playing together for years.

One thing that I DON'T like that I think is working at odds with this is Steven's penchant for running a bazillion different lineup combinations out there.   We have just three 5-man units that have played over 25 minutes together and dozens and dozens that have all played under 15 minutes together.

How are the players supposed to really learn each other if they are in constantly shifting units, moving from position to position with constantly changing floor mates?

[mmmmm]

Some thoughts after watching the game against the Bobcats.
-Our pace was much slower than usual. Reasons? Was it that Bobcats had faster returns than the other teams we played against?
-Stevens experimented a lot with the PG. RR, Smart, Pressey, ET and even Bradley all played PG at some point. Any guesses as to why this is happening?
-Given the importance assigned to 'pushing the pace', I started paying much more attention to Sully's slowness. He was almost always last to go cross the half court. Any ideas as to what stops him from losing a dozen pounds and reaching his full potential?
-(not sure how to formulate this in Eng) but it seemed to me that when the D forced JGreen to dribble/drive with his weak hand, he was in much trouble.
-Speaking of Green, IMO he was yesterday our most agile player in the offense without the ball, but the rest of the team seemed not to pay much attention to what he was doing 

The Hornets (Charlotte is the Hornets again, not the Bobcats) had 5 days off to rest, practice and prepare for the Cs.   In particular, they put a special emphasis on transition D, getting back quickly after their own shots went up.   This basically took away the fast-break portion of our offense, which imho, we are too dependent on and forced us to run a half-court game.

They are, with Big Al, far better equipped to trade points in a half-court contest.

But nevertheless, I don't understand what Stevens is thinking.  When the game started, we had some initial success with posting up Green on Stephenson using switches.  He scored 8 quick points in the first 8 minutes.  And then he took him out for 10 minutes, only bringing him back in for the final minutes of the half, during which we ran not a single play for him.  He then had another 8 points in the 3rd, but in the fourth, all we did was lean on Thornton's outside shooting which inevitably ran cold.  We never ran a single play through Green or any of our front court late in the game.   There was no 'motion' in this offense late in the game.

Right now, I have serious doubts about what the heck Stevens is trying to do offensively.

[Jailan34]

Some thoughts after watching the game against the Bobcats.
-Our pace was much slower than usual. Reasons? Was it that Bobcats had faster returns than the other teams we played against?
-Stevens experimented a lot with the PG. RR, Smart, Pressey, ET and even Bradley all played PG at some point. Any guesses as to why this is happening?
-Given the importance assigned to 'pushing the pace', I started paying much more attention to Sully's slowness. He was almost always last to go cross the half court. Any ideas as to what stops him from losing a dozen pounds and reaching his full potential?
-(not sure how to formulate this in Eng) but it seemed to me that when the D forced JGreen to dribble/drive with his weak hand, he was in much trouble.
-Speaking of Green, IMO he was yesterday our most agile player in the offense without the ball, but the rest of the team seemed not to pay much attention to what he was doing 

The Hornets (Charlotte is the Hornets again, not the Bobcats) had 5 days off to rest, practice and prepare for the Cs.   In particular, they put a special emphasis on transition D, getting back quickly after their own shots went up.   This basically took away the fast-break portion of our offense, which imho, we are too dependent on and forced us to run a half-court game.

They are, with Big Al, far better equipped to trade points in a half-court contest.

But nevertheless, I don't understand what Stevens is thinking.  When the game started, we had some initial success with posting up Green on Stephenson using switches.  He scored 8 quick points in the first 8 minutes.  And then he took him out for 10 minutes, only bringing him back in for the final minutes of the half, during which we ran not a single play for him.  He then had another 8 points in the 3rd, but in the fourth, all we did was lean on Thornton's outside shooting which inevitably ran cold.  We never ran a single play through Green or any of our front court late in the game.   There was no 'motion' in this offense late in the game.

Right now, I have serious doubts about what the heck Stevens is trying to do offensively.

People complained about Doc's rotations, but I think Stevens is worse. He plays everyone 20 minutes, except for Smart that is, because he only gets 9 minutes.

[greece66]

Bobcats (sic)
Until they manage to accomplish anything greater than being owned by bball's greatest player. 

[Celtics4ever]

Given that as you few players can dribble, take a screen and then a shot, and also few in our roster can play well in isolation, then why go for the motion offence? Why do you think Stevens thinks motion offence is what suits as best?

It is what Stevens knows.   He is a Indiana guy, Bob Knight was revered in Indiana, and he was a motion offense guy and a big promoter of it.  Stevens himself was coaching under Thad Motta.

This is what Thad runs nowadays

http://www.fastmodelsports.com/library/basketball/fastdraw/1481/play-Thad-Matta-Weave-Offense-2010

http://coachingbetterbball.blogspot.com/2008/02/ohio-states-dribble-weave-patterned.html

A coach runs what he knows or what he thinks works.  Sometimes they adapt this to personnel, the good ones do so, and sometimes they do not.

To put in context, Greece runs this offense a lot.

http://coachingbetterbball.blogspot.com/2008/08/u18-fiba-greece-zone-offense-using-3.html

As you can see this is a Syracuse offense.     It has a lot of motion principles.   Motion works best against man to man.   Picks do not work as good against a zone.

[PickNRoll]

Could you talk a bit more about that?

Can generally be summarized by "don't get in the way of people trying to do stuff" (bringing your defender to them in the process). In the particular case of this video, I saw at least one example of Olynyk plodding around the lane when Rondo was trying to drive.

One thing that I DON'T like that I think is working at odds with this is Steven's penchant for running a bazillion different lineup combinations out there.   We have just three 5-man units that have played over 25 minutes together and dozens and dozens that have all played under 15 minutes together.

How are the players supposed to really learn each other if they are in constantly shifting units, moving from position to position with constantly changing floor mates?

I agree.  I think that winning games this year isn't his priority though.  He's experimenting.  Also, we're stocked with players that we'll try to parlay into trade assets.  Pressey and Wallace get DNP's, but Thornton, Turner and Bass don't.  Maybe they're better players, but if winning were the only concern, you'd see more of Wallace and shorter, fixed rotations.

[TheFlex]

Could you talk a bit more about that?

Can generally be summarized by "don't get in the way of people trying to do stuff" (bringing your defender to them in the process). In the particular case of this video, I saw at least one example of Olynyk plodding around the lane when Rondo was trying to drive.

Yes, I noticed that too.  At two points in the sequence he pinches off Rondo's path.  The second time, I will grant that he did it to clear his man away from where Bass was moving to, which ended up being the actual shot taken.

This illustrates the difficulty of running this offense because a player can't just read and react with a move that he thinks individually will lead to say, his advantage.  He has to also think instinctively about how the rest of his team will read and react to the same situation so that they all move in a complementary manner.

The top play "worked" when all three of Bass, Rondo & KO all finally "read" the collapse of both RR & KO's defenders and the open look being created above the FT line for Bass.

Ultimately, getting into the level of 'sync' with each other to play anywhere close to the level that the Spurs do is going to take a LOT more experience with each other in this system.  The Spurs have been playing together for years.

One thing that I DON'T like that I think is working at odds with this is Steven's penchant for running a bazillion different lineup combinations out there.   We have just three 5-man units that have played over 25 minutes together and dozens and dozens that have all played under 15 minutes together.

How are the players supposed to really learn each other if they are in constantly shifting units, moving from position to position with constantly changing floor mates?

I've noticed Sully often runs into Green and Rondo as well. Often he does a fine job of setting screens either popping out or rolling out of the way, but at times, especially late in the shot clock, Sully tries to establish position in the high post, Rondo and Green try to drive down the middle of the lane -- somewhat inexplicable given that, if Sully is occupying that space, not only is he there, but it's clear that the interior D hasn't collapsed either -- and the two run into one another.

[littleteapot]

Last night it looked like the Celtics were trying to make the recipe without the ingredients.

Passes were sailing over people's heads, screens never actually seemed to move defenders, and once the C's finally got a shot it seemed like a lot of the time the guy pump faked 5 times and then turned it over.


The "getting in people's way" discussion remind me of Spencer Tracy's advice on acting:
"Show up on time, know your lines and don't bump into the furniture"

[TheFlex]

Last night it looked like the Celtics were trying to make the recipe without the ingredients.

Passes were sailing over people's heads, screens never actually seemed to move defenders, and once the C's finally got a shot it seemed like a lot of the time the guy pump faked 5 times and then turned it over.


The "getting in people's way" discussion remind me of Spencer Tracy's advice on acting:
"Show up on time, know your lines and don't bump into the furniture"

TP. We're a mess. I think our talent level is below what our record speaks of it to be.

[Rondo9]

Last night it looked like the Celtics were trying to make the recipe without the ingredients.

Passes were sailing over people's heads, screens never actually seemed to move defenders, and once the C's finally got a shot it seemed like a lot of the time the guy pump faked 5 times and then turned it over.


The "getting in people's way" discussion remind me of Spencer Tracy's advice on acting:
"Show up on time, know your lines and don't bump into the furniture"

TP. We're a mess. I think our talent level is below what our record speaks of it to be.

I'm actually surprised at their record this year......

[Beat LA]

The real question is, Why do our players stand around on offense in the fourth quarter?

It is a well-known fact that against teams that play defense, you need to be able to execute plays in order to win and not just run around like a headless chicken.

I don't believe that that's necessarily true.  Most times, all you have to do is 1).  find and exploit a mismatch, or 2).  know who has the most fouls out there for the opposition, get it to his man in the post, and tell him to go right at him.  The defender can't do much of anything if he wants to stay in the game, so that means that our guy is going to either get a good shot or draw a double team, after the opposition realizes that they have to protect that guy out there by getting the ball out of our players' hands, and at that point, we just have to swing it around the horn to the open guy, and bingo - easy shot.  You don't need to have a lot of set plays to win if you know how to play, imo; and if you keep running, no - you might not get a fast break - but someone could get a mismatch, and at that point, Rondo will see it, get that guy the ball, and we'll exploit it one way or the other.  It also helps, especially on the road, to get into the bonus relatively quickly in the 4th quarter.  I know, I'm crazy, lol.  Watch the UCONN Women - they'll show you everything you need to know and more.  Seriously.

[LooseCannon]

Trying to iso a defender, whether in the perimeter or the post, is usually an inefficient play in the NBA.

[MBunge]

Last night it looked like the Celtics were trying to make the recipe without the ingredients.

Passes were sailing over people's heads, screens never actually seemed to move defenders, and once the C's finally got a shot it seemed like a lot of the time the guy pump faked 5 times and then turned it over.


The "getting in people's way" discussion remind me of Spencer Tracy's advice on acting:
"Show up on time, know your lines and don't bump into the furniture"

TP. We're a mess. I think our talent level is below what our record speaks of it to be.

I don't think you can recognize NBA talent.

We've got two players who would start for most teams in the league (Rondo and Green).
We've got another that would be a top 9 rotation guy on even the best teams in the league (Bass).
We've got two more guys who would be rotation players on most NBA teams (Thorton and Bradley).
We've got another who is overcoming a sketchy past to start looking like a rotation player (Turner).
We've got three young players who have all had many moments of looking like decent to good NBA players (Sully, KO and Zeller).
And we've got another young player all the experts are raving about (Smart).

If you haven't seen teams with less talent win games in the NBA, you haven't been watching much basketball.

Mike

[littleteapot]

I don't think the C's are lacking in talent.

I think

A - All our players are either veterans who have done one or two things their whole career or very inexperienced players who are still figuring out their game
B - No one I know of on our team has experience playing in this offense
C - Our coaching staff isn't doing a good enough job projecting talent on this team and putting people in position to do what they are good at now or what we expect them to be good at in the future. I think right now we are forcing too many players into roles instead of understanding what their unique strengths and weaknesses are.

[Celtics4ever]

I don't think the C's are lacking in talent.

You need to get out more.   Our bigs are alarmingly not athletic.  They can't play D, no coach on the planet could make Sully or KO fast or able to react more and we get lit up by any team with solid bigs.   That being said both KO and Sully are decent passers and can be nifty on the offensive end.

Our coaching staff isn't doing a good enough job projecting talent on this team and putting people in position to do what they are good at now or what we expect them to be good at in the future. I think right now we are forcing too many players into roles instead of understanding what their unique strengths and weaknesses are.

Stevens has this team winning games they should not all the time.   He has got Turner to play decent, got Crawford last year to toe the line.   He coached a mid major to the NCAA finals twice, I am pretty sure, he knows what he is doing.  As for strengths we have some guys particularly our bigs who can play on only one end.    Flawed roster, lies more on Ainge, but then I do not think he wanted us to win this year but the coming picks, but to improve from last year and develop talent.   We do not have a rim protector.   Our bigs are horrible on D.  We lack a go to scorer.  Stevens can't just crap that out of his rear.  The personnel here are haven game in and game out to be woefully inadequate in these regards.  Playing zone would help some with the slow bigs but teams that shoot will light us up even more and zone is not something you can always play in the NBA.

Passes were sailing over people's heads, screens never actually seemed to move defenders, and once the C's finally got a shot it seemed like a lot of the time the guy pump faked 5 times and then turned it over.

 Pretty sure Brad Stevens didn't make any of these passes or set the screens.   You can't play it both ways.   Maybe they are not talented enough to screen and pass or is it the coaches fault.  They have to pump fake because they are not athletic enough to go straight up in our big's cases.   We have some guys like Green that can over power their man with athletic ability.   Rondo used to be able to do so.   Oly and Sully can not.  Sully has a nice jump hook and can sometimes use his butt to do so, but he has struggled against length. 

We've got two players who would start for most teams in the league (Rondo and Green).

  Lots of teams have PGs that could send RR to the bench or relegate him to a lesser role.  I think we can name probably half a dozen.

We've got another that would be a top 9 rotation guy on even the best teams in the league (Bass).

  I doubt this one.

We've got two more guys who would be rotation players on most NBA teams (Thorton and Bradley).

  I've heard of seeing green but Bradley is very inconsistent.

We've got another who is overcoming a sketchy past to start looking like a rotation player (Turner).

  A pleasant surprise

We've got three young players who have all had many moments of looking like decent to good NBA players (Sully, KO and Zeller).

  Sadly, only on one end, in KO and Sully's case.  That is a real knock on their value.

Do these guys have NBA talent, yes they are in the NBA.     Does that mean they are marque talent, nope, our record indicates otherwise.  A lot of these guys tumbled in the draft for a reason, Sully overweight, bad back and can't defend a third grader, Rondo would not shoot.  Bradley was considered too short and to have lacked PG skills which he does horribly.

Ainge likes getting guys who can play but drop because of their flaws.  BBD was such a player, Sully and Rondo are such players.  Often, he has had to do this because he wanted value where he was picking.   These guys have even been productive most of the time in some ways but their flaws still hurt us when their talent fails to overcome them.