Looks like Tommy can't take it anymore

[mmmmm]

Rondo is a stubborn, inflexible player.  When Tommy says something it should be considered.

Next game, Rondo still walks up with the ball in the 4th and Tommy starts going crazy again.

Tommy was not like this when the big three were here. He wasn't big on the team pushing the pace bc things worked and we were winning.  Right now , things are different. Rondo does not get it

Rondo should listen to a guy that has won more rings then he can ever dream of winning. 

Some fans here still back up Rondo vs a Legend.  really?   How many rings has he won as a player and coach combined?

Wow.  Every one of those statements seems completely divorced from reality.  Did you even actually take time to _read_ the full story?   Rondo specifically stated that he puts a LOT of weight and significance to Tommy's words and advice.   Predictably, you have come up with an interpretation that twists it into Rondo not considering it.

And if you think Tommy hasn't been yelling for the team to "push the ball" since well _before_ Rondo was even drafted you just plain have not been paying attention or watching the Celtics for very long.   He's yelled for that since as long as I can remember and he did indeed do so while the Big 3 were here.

[Tr1boy]

Rondo not following what the coach asks him to do would be a pretty big story, and something most of us would like to know about.  So if that is what you think, and you stand behind it, then give us some proof that is true. 

I don't think that there's any doubt that Rondo sometimes does his own thing.  Examples:

* Rondo skipped that trip to Sacramento last year without the team's permission
* There have been numerous reports of Rondo clashing with coaches at every level he's played
* Rondo hasn't always played the way his coaches preferred (remember Doc imploring him to attack the basket and get to the line more a couple of seasons ago)?

Does that mean he's consistently and blatantly ignoring his coaches?  No, I wouldn't say that at all.  However, he's also not a player that I think anybody would describe as easily coachable.  He's got a very sharp mind, and he's very stubborn.  Those two attributes have been big parts of his success, but they also lead to him clashing at times with those around him.

Exactly.   
 

[Roy H.]

To all:  Quit bickering, and treat others with respect.  Last warning.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Clearly Rondo was only saying it to put on a show.

Nothing anybody says or does matters

[Tr1boy]

Rondo is a stubborn, inflexible player.  When Tommy says something it should be considered.

Next game, Rondo still walks up with the ball in the 4th and Tommy starts going crazy again.

Tommy was not like this when the big three were here. He wasn't big on the team pushing the pace bc things worked and we were winning.  Right now , things are different. Rondo does not get it

Rondo should listen to a guy that has won more rings then he can ever dream of winning. 

Some fans here still back up Rondo vs a Legend.  really?   How many rings has he won as a player and coach combined?

Wow.  Every one of those statements seems completely divorced from reality.  Did you even actually take time to _read_ the full story?   Rondo specifically stated that he puts a LOT of weight and significance to Tommy's words and advice.   Predictably, you have come up with an interpretation that twists it into Rondo not considering it.

And if you think Tommy hasn't been yelling for the team to "push the ball" since well _before_ Rondo was even drafted you just plain have not been paying attention or watching the Celtics for very long.   He's yelled for that since as long as I can remember and he did indeed do so while the Big 3 were here.

Like i have said, so what if Rondo says he will consider the advice. He is not going to listen.  I bet 20 bucks he won't do it next game. And if he does do it, i will lose the 20 bucks GLADLY.

Tommy has been pressing now more than ever for the ball to be pushed. He stated at the end of last season that Rondo has learned bad habits. That team (big three) could slow down the pace and still win. They were getting old also. 

So its not like he is 24/7 to push the pace . He knows certain teams can't play that way. But this unit can to maximize things and minimize flaws

[puskas54_10]

{Of Heinsohn's advice, Rondo said, "Just stay positive. Continue to push the pace -- in the fourth quarter we tend to walk the ball up the court. Myself, I was just sharing my thoughts about how it’s hard to push the pace when the ball’s going through the net every time. It’s just difficult. Like I said, it starts on the defensive end of the floor."}

So he knows where the problem is and tried to tell Rondo (not the first time obviously)
and Rondo, either is making excuses to not to do it, or he want's to but simply can't do it

I'm pretty sure the spurs pushs the pace almost everytime in the finals no matter it's a made basket or not, so it can be done, and that shows how Rondo's playstyle(mentality) doesn't fit BS's motion offense-pace&space system, yet

My only take away from this is that Rondo is doing what Rondo thinks is the best. You can say anything to him, and you can be anybody (even Tommy) he will do what he thinks is the best, not what coaches or respected former players say or just suggest. He's clearly not an easy player to deal with. He's a stobborn as a mule.The problem is he's not the superstar he thinks he is like younger Kobe or Lebron. So not worth the ado.

Hmm..well from the quotes he gave (I posted them on page 2) seems to say the opposite of what you think.

"Tommy is a guy I've been talking to since Day One," Rondo said. "He's been a big fan of mine and I believe in what he's done here in the past. He's done it all. Anytime a guy like Tommy wants to share something, I always try to listen."

"He's the biggest supporter here," Rondo said of Heinsohn. "He's here every night, at every home game. He's rooting for us. He wants the best for our team. And he had some good advice for me. I'm going to take it and share that with my guys and figure some things out."

I know Rondo the player pretty well. As a Ray Allen fan I eagerly watched this team since 2007, even after Ray left. He will do what he wants and thinks is best. He's not a mean guy off the field I bet, so he says respectful things to Tommy, but he really don't give a crap, he will do his things on the court as he wants. No Big 3 anymore to take a backseat. It's his show.

So I guess that's why he gave the ball to Smart to run the offense when he crossed half court on multiple occasions . Or Turner and Green . He sets KO up for open threes that he just passes on ,but it all comes back to Rondo's selfishness, I see....

He's not selfish. He just thinks he's above other players on the team. He gave up the ball because he thought that's the best option, if Smart will fail to generate offense in Rondo's book he will get the ball fewer. The point is: Rondo does what he believes the best for the team, not what the coach says.

How on earth can you ever make that statement unless you are on the coaching staff?  Does Stevens call you up and give you personal updates?  I am sorry but you are just making stuff up.

Once in the huddle in of the last couple games Rondo said "It's his team". Somebody talked about it here at celticsblog.

Exactly how does Rondo saying it is 'his team' ie taking leadership responsibility = Rondo not doing what the coach says?  There is zero logic in your statement.

Seriously why don't you give us a link to an article where Rondo says that he doesn't do what the coach says?  Or even better find us some quotes from Stevens saying Rondo ignores what he says to do on the court?  You, like the rest of us, have no idea what Stevens is saying to Rondo.  Acting like you know is just silly.

Please, please, please. I never said I know better than anybody. It's my opinion. You know nothing, I know nothing. Why is a blog afterall? We just discuss opinions.

And I bet you are a Rondo lover.
Rondo: "It's my team!"
You: "He's a good leader!"
Me: "He thinks he's above the team, while he faling big time in the clutch. If it's your team, then take over, not pass it all the time to average players to make plays instead of you!"

I am not the one making statements like this:  "The point is: Rondo does what he believes the best for the team, not what the coach says."  That is what you said.

Rondo not following what the coach asks him to do would be a pretty big story, and something most of us would like to know about.  So if that is what you think, and you stand behind it, then give us some proof that is true. 

If you have no proof, and you are just making stuff up to be a troll, then maybe think twice about making statements like that aren't adding much to our discussion and conversation.

Why do you act so ignorant? Troll? So if somebody criticizes Rondo, then he's a troll. It's not rondoblog, it's celticsblog.

[blink]

Rondo not following what the coach asks him to do would be a pretty big story, and something most of us would like to know about.  So if that is what you think, and you stand behind it, then give us some proof that is true. 

I don't think that there's any doubt that Rondo sometimes does his own thing.  Examples:

* Rondo skipped that trip to Sacramento last year without the team's permission
* There have been numerous reports of Rondo clashing with coaches at every level he's played
* Rondo hasn't always played the way his coaches preferred (remember Doc imploring him to attack the basket and get to the line more a couple of seasons ago)?

Does that mean he's consistently and blatantly ignoring his coaches?  No, I wouldn't say that at all.  However, he's also not a player that I think anybody would describe as easily coachable.  He's got a very sharp mind, and he's very stubborn.  Those two attributes have been big parts of his success, but they also lead to him clashing at times with those around him.

To clarify, I guess I was thinking only basketball play stuff specifically with Brad Stevens because that is who puskas54_10 was referring to.  Yeah there was the birthday-gate, but I feel that was blown out of proportion a bit and it wasn't basketball related.

But what other evidence is there that Rondo isn't (on the court) playing how Stevens wants him to play?  Almost everything I have read from Stevens is gushing about Rondo.  The same from his team mates.  Sully, AB, Smart, Green, KO they all seem to be on board with what Rondo is doing on the court.  If he wasn't implementing Stevens game plans, or was doing whatever he wanted to wouldn't there be some some change in playing time / obvious frustration from Stevens / something showing that he isn't doing what the teams asks him to do?

I know everyone thinks that everything that comes out of the mouth of Stevens / Ainge / Players / Owners is all media speak, but other that what they say, and what they do (playing time / starting) how can you just pull stuff like that out of the air. 

[BballTim]

Rondo is a stubborn, inflexible player.  When Tommy says something it should be considered.

Next game, Rondo still walks up with the ball in the 4th and Tommy starts going crazy again.

Tommy was not like this when the big three were here. He wasn't big on the team pushing the pace bc things worked and we were winning.  Right now , things are different. Rondo does not get it

Rondo should listen to a guy that has won more rings then he can ever dream of winning. 

Some fans here still back up Rondo vs a Legend.  really?   How many rings has he won as a player and coach combined?

Wow.  Every one of those statements seems completely divorced from reality.  Did you even actually take time to _read_ the full story?   Rondo specifically stated that he puts a LOT of weight and significance to Tommy's words and advice.   Predictably, you have come up with an interpretation that twists it into Rondo not considering it.

And if you think Tommy hasn't been yelling for the team to "push the ball" since well _before_ Rondo was even drafted you just plain have not been paying attention or watching the Celtics for very long.   He's yelled for that since as long as I can remember and he did indeed do so while the Big 3 were here.

Like i have said, so what if Rondo says he will consider the advice. He is not going to listen.  I bet 20 bucks he won't do it next game. And if he does do it, i will lose the 20 bucks GLADLY.

Tommy has been pressing now more than ever for the ball to be pushed. He stated at the end of last season that Rondo has learned bad habits. That team (big three) could slow down the pace and still win. They were getting old also. 

So its not like he is 24/7 to push the pace . He knows certain teams can't play that way. But this unit can to maximize things and minimize flaws

  Last year we were 17th in pace, right now we're 3rd. What makes you think he's not pushing the pace?

[Tr1boy]

Rondo is a stubborn, inflexible player.  When Tommy says something it should be considered.

Next game, Rondo still walks up with the ball in the 4th and Tommy starts going crazy again.

Tommy was not like this when the big three were here. He wasn't big on the team pushing the pace bc things worked and we were winning.  Right now , things are different. Rondo does not get it

Rondo should listen to a guy that has won more rings then he can ever dream of winning. 

Some fans here still back up Rondo vs a Legend.  really?   How many rings has he won as a player and coach combined?

Wow.  Every one of those statements seems completely divorced from reality.  Did you even actually take time to _read_ the full story?   Rondo specifically stated that he puts a LOT of weight and significance to Tommy's words and advice.   Predictably, you have come up with an interpretation that twists it into Rondo not considering it.

And if you think Tommy hasn't been yelling for the team to "push the ball" since well _before_ Rondo was even drafted you just plain have not been paying attention or watching the Celtics for very long.   He's yelled for that since as long as I can remember and he did indeed do so while the Big 3 were here.

Like i have said, so what if Rondo says he will consider the advice. He is not going to listen.  I bet 20 bucks he won't do it next game. And if he does do it, i will lose the 20 bucks GLADLY.

Tommy has been pressing now more than ever for the ball to be pushed. He stated at the end of last season that Rondo has learned bad habits. That team (big three) could slow down the pace and still win. They were getting old also. 

So its not like he is 24/7 to push the pace . He knows certain teams can't play that way. But this unit can to maximize things and minimize flaws

  Last year we were 17th in pace, right now we're 3rd. What makes you think he's not pushing the pace?

He is not pushing the pace when he needs to push it. I rather him slow down the pace for the first three quarters , then go buckwild in the 4th.

In the 4th is where we are losing games after games.  Teams are playing "nitpick" , "iso" ball against us. Instead of giving them a chance to execute their strategy , we need to push the pace and have them chase us . On the defensive end press their ball handler, kill time and make it hard  for them to set up.

[blink]

Does anyone know a stat site that breaks down fg% by quarter?  I actually agree that part of our 4th quarter woes come from not being aggressive enough.  Whether or not that should be laid on Rondo's pace-shoulders, I have no idea.

I think that the 4th quarter collapses are probably more of a combination of things which are more than one issue or one one player and one issue.  We have played pretty bad D, and when good teams hunker down to score in the 4th when the game is on the line, we just are terrible as a team.  I have no idea why we dropped off the face of the earth with our D.  I guess Hump was more important that we all thought haha.  In the 4th quarter for point margin we are dead last at -5.4 points a game.

Also, good teams tend to ratchet up the def in tight games.  I think we are seeing that as well in our close losses to the better teams.  Someone mentioned that the good teams are somewhat toying with us in the 1st 3 quarters, and then really playing to win at the end.  Hard to argue against that.

[Tr1boy]

Does anyone know a stat site that breaks down fg% by quarter?  I actually agree that part of our 4th quarter woes come from not being aggressive enough.  Whether or not that should be laid on Rondo's pace-shoulders, I have no idea.

I think that the 4th quarter collapses are probably more of a combination of things which are more than one issue or one one player and one issue.  We have played pretty bad D, and when good teams hunker down to score in the 4th when the game is on the line, we just are terrible as a team.  I have no idea why we dropped off the face of the earth with our D.  I guess Hump was more important that we all thought haha.  In the 4th quarter for point margin we are dead last at -5.4 points a game.

Also, good teams tend to ratchet up the def in tight games.  I think we are seeing that as well in our close losses to the better teams.  Someone mentioned that the good teams are somewhat toying with us in the 1st 3 quarters, and then really playing to win at the end.  Hard to argue against that.

He has the BALL in his hands.  He can control the pace more than anyone else on the team can.

I know your a Rondo fanatic. But you can't deny that he does slow down the pace in the 4th. Especially with less than 5 minutes to go.   This team does not have the pieces to succeed at playing ball this way (halfcourt basketball). 

[blink]

Does anyone know a stat site that breaks down fg% by quarter?  I actually agree that part of our 4th quarter woes come from not being aggressive enough.  Whether or not that should be laid on Rondo's pace-shoulders, I have no idea.

I think that the 4th quarter collapses are probably more of a combination of things which are more than one issue or one one player and one issue.  We have played pretty bad D, and when good teams hunker down to score in the 4th when the game is on the line, we just are terrible as a team.  I have no idea why we dropped off the face of the earth with our D.  I guess Hump was more important that we all thought haha.  In the 4th quarter for point margin we are dead last at -5.4 points a game.

Also, good teams tend to ratchet up the def in tight games.  I think we are seeing that as well in our close losses to the better teams.  Someone mentioned that the good teams are somewhat toying with us in the 1st 3 quarters, and then really playing to win at the end.  Hard to argue against that.

He has the BALL in his hands.  He can control the pace more than anyone else on the team can.

I know your a Rondo fanatic. But you can't deny that he does slow down the pace in the 4th. Especially with less than 5 minutes to go.   This team does not have the pieces to succeed at playing ball this way (halfcourt basketball).

I asked very nicely if anyone knew of a site where we can look at FG% by quarter.  Can you help me with that Triboy, if not, why are you blowing your stack at my comment?

[mmmmm]

Rondo is a stubborn, inflexible player.  When Tommy says something it should be considered.

Next game, Rondo still walks up with the ball in the 4th and Tommy starts going crazy again.

Tommy was not like this when the big three were here. He wasn't big on the team pushing the pace bc things worked and we were winning.  Right now , things are different. Rondo does not get it

Rondo should listen to a guy that has won more rings then he can ever dream of winning. 

Some fans here still back up Rondo vs a Legend.  really?   How many rings has he won as a player and coach combined?

Wow.  Every one of those statements seems completely divorced from reality.  Did you even actually take time to _read_ the full story?   Rondo specifically stated that he puts a LOT of weight and significance to Tommy's words and advice.   Predictably, you have come up with an interpretation that twists it into Rondo not considering it.

And if you think Tommy hasn't been yelling for the team to "push the ball" since well _before_ Rondo was even drafted you just plain have not been paying attention or watching the Celtics for very long.   He's yelled for that since as long as I can remember and he did indeed do so while the Big 3 were here.

Like i have said, so what if Rondo says he will consider the advice. He is not going to listen.  I bet 20 bucks he won't do it next game. And if he does do it, i will lose the 20 bucks GLADLY.

Tommy has been pressing now more than ever for the ball to be pushed. He stated at the end of last season that Rondo has learned bad habits. That team (big three) could slow down the pace and still win. They were getting old also. 

So its not like he is 24/7 to push the pace . He knows certain teams can't play that way. But this unit can to maximize things and minimize flaws

  Last year we were 17th in pace, right now we're 3rd. What makes you think he's not pushing the pace?

He is not pushing the pace when he needs to push it. I rather him slow down the pace for the first three quarters , then go buckwild in the 4th.

In the 4th is where we are losing games after games.  Teams are playing "nitpick" , "iso" ball against us. Instead of giving them a chance to execute their strategy , we need to push the pace and have them chase us . On the defensive end press their ball handler, kill time and make it hard  for them to set up.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

• Moving the goalposts is an informal logical fallacy in which previously agreed upon standards for deciding an argument are arbitrarily changed once they have been met. This is usually done by the "losing" side of an argument in a desperate bid to save face. If the goalposts are moved far enough, then the standards can eventually evolve[1] into something that cannot be met no matter what (or anything will meet said standard if the losing side is trying to meet the standard using this tactic). Usually such a tactic is spotted quickly.

[Sixth Man]

Rondo is a stubborn, inflexible player.  When Tommy says something it should be considered.

Next game, Rondo still walks up with the ball in the 4th and Tommy starts going crazy again.

Tommy was not like this when the big three were here. He wasn't big on the team pushing the pace bc things worked and we were winning.  Right now , things are different. Rondo does not get it

Rondo should listen to a guy that has won more rings then he can ever dream of winning. 

Some fans here still back up Rondo vs a Legend.  really?   How many rings has he won as a player and coach combined?

Wow.  Every one of those statements seems completely divorced from reality.  Did you even actually take time to _read_ the full story?   Rondo specifically stated that he puts a LOT of weight and significance to Tommy's words and advice.   Predictably, you have come up with an interpretation that twists it into Rondo not considering it.

And if you think Tommy hasn't been yelling for the team to "push the ball" since well _before_ Rondo was even drafted you just plain have not been paying attention or watching the Celtics for very long.   He's yelled for that since as long as I can remember and he did indeed do so while the Big 3 were here.

Like i have said, so what if Rondo says he will consider the advice. He is not going to listen.  I bet 20 bucks he won't do it next game. And if he does do it, i will lose the 20 bucks GLADLY.

Tommy has been pressing now more than ever for the ball to be pushed. He stated at the end of last season that Rondo has learned bad habits. That team (big three) could slow down the pace and still win. They were getting old also. 

So its not like he is 24/7 to push the pace . He knows certain teams can't play that way. But this unit can to maximize things and minimize flaws

  Last year we were 17th in pace, right now we're 3rd. What makes you think he's not pushing the pace?

He is not pushing the pace when he needs to push it. I rather him slow down the pace for the first three quarters , then go buckwild in the 4th.

In the 4th is where we are losing games after games.  Teams are playing "nitpick" , "iso" ball against us. Instead of giving them a chance to execute their strategy , we need to push the pace and have them chase us . On the defensive end press their ball handler, kill time and make it hard  for them to set up.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

• Moving the goalposts is an informal logical fallacy in which previously agreed upon standards for deciding an argument are arbitrarily changed once they have been met. This is usually done by the "losing" side of an argument in a desperate bid to save face. If the goalposts are moved far enough, then the standards can eventually evolve[1] into something that cannot be met no matter what (or anything will meet said standard if the losing side is trying to meet the standard using this tactic). Usually such a tactic is spotted quickly.

Speaking of logical fallacies...I'm sure our resident expert on everything-in-the-cosmos, Mr. BBTim, can provide the necessary statistical indices to "prove" that RR is uptempoing the offense this season, but until he does, no one here has proved nor disproved the basic question being examined, and your claim is premature. 

[blink]

Rondo is a stubborn, inflexible player.  When Tommy says something it should be considered.

Next game, Rondo still walks up with the ball in the 4th and Tommy starts going crazy again.

Tommy was not like this when the big three were here. He wasn't big on the team pushing the pace bc things worked and we were winning.  Right now , things are different. Rondo does not get it

Rondo should listen to a guy that has won more rings then he can ever dream of winning. 

Some fans here still back up Rondo vs a Legend.  really?   How many rings has he won as a player and coach combined?

Wow.  Every one of those statements seems completely divorced from reality.  Did you even actually take time to _read_ the full story?   Rondo specifically stated that he puts a LOT of weight and significance to Tommy's words and advice.   Predictably, you have come up with an interpretation that twists it into Rondo not considering it.

And if you think Tommy hasn't been yelling for the team to "push the ball" since well _before_ Rondo was even drafted you just plain have not been paying attention or watching the Celtics for very long.   He's yelled for that since as long as I can remember and he did indeed do so while the Big 3 were here.

Like i have said, so what if Rondo says he will consider the advice. He is not going to listen.  I bet 20 bucks he won't do it next game. And if he does do it, i will lose the 20 bucks GLADLY.

Tommy has been pressing now more than ever for the ball to be pushed. He stated at the end of last season that Rondo has learned bad habits. That team (big three) could slow down the pace and still win. They were getting old also. 

So its not like he is 24/7 to push the pace . He knows certain teams can't play that way. But this unit can to maximize things and minimize flaws

  Last year we were 17th in pace, right now we're 3rd. What makes you think he's not pushing the pace?

He is not pushing the pace when he needs to push it. I rather him slow down the pace for the first three quarters , then go buckwild in the 4th.

In the 4th is where we are losing games after games.  Teams are playing "nitpick" , "iso" ball against us. Instead of giving them a chance to execute their strategy , we need to push the pace and have them chase us . On the defensive end press their ball handler, kill time and make it hard  for them to set up.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

• Moving the goalposts is an informal logical fallacy in which previously agreed upon standards for deciding an argument are arbitrarily changed once they have been met. This is usually done by the "losing" side of an argument in a desperate bid to save face. If the goalposts are moved far enough, then the standards can eventually evolve[1] into something that cannot be met no matter what (or anything will meet said standard if the losing side is trying to meet the standard using this tactic). Usually such a tactic is spotted quickly.

Speaking of logical fallacies...I'm sure our resident expert on everything-in-the-cosmos, Mr. BBTim, can provide the necessary statistical indices to "prove" that RR is uptempoing the offense this season, but until he does, no one here has proved nor disproved the basic question being examined, and your claim is premature.

You mean this one?

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/paceFactor

Yeah I think Tim already alluded to it.  Being less snarky helps sometimes too.