Bradley is an awful starting SG

[KeepRondo]

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team.

Tony Allen had to play on a team where the middle was manned by Raef LaFrenz and Mark Blount, and his defense didn't seem to suffer.

Tony Allen defensive rating 2004-05 to 2006-07: 104, 106, 104

Tony Allen defensive rating 2007-08 (year KG came to town): 99

Tony Allen defensive rating 2013-14 (with M. Gasol behind him): 101

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allento01.html#per_poss::none

You realize that the BR individual defensive "ratings" are practically useless, right? According to them, Eddie House is as good was Tony Allen defensively (he notched a rating of 100 in 07-08).

Considering House was part of one of the greatest defensive teams ever and had his defensive shortcomings hidden by KG/Perkins, this is not surprising. In each of the two years before coming to Boston, his defensive rating was 108. In the 50 games he played for Boston in 2009-10, 107. Then in the 18 games he played for the Knicks the same year, 113. 100 is the lowest defensive rating House ever posted.

If you are dissatisfied with such a statistic, consider some others. Tony Allen's defensive box plus minus in his first three years combined (before KG) was 1.8. When KG came to Boston, he posted a 1.9 DBPM in a single season (2007-08).

In his first three years, he averaged about 1.2 defensive win shares per year. In 2007-08, this number jumped up to 2.8.

In each of his first three seasons, his +/- per 100 possessions was: +7.0, -2.4, -2.1. With KG in 2007-08, this number jumped up to +9.8.

Right, and all of these metrics suffer from the same shortcoming: they track box scores and not actual game flow data. So you're trying to extrapolate individual defensive ability from something that is essentially a team statistic. The result is, predictably, more indicative of how the  team does rather than how the player does.

OK then, could you enlighten me with statistics of your choice?

I think he agreed without realizing it. He said the stats are team based which supports that you need other defensive players to play good defense. I think we can see that Bradley posted much better numbers on a team who played great help defense. Same with Tony Allen.

[Shamrocker]

The notion that Bradley and his much heralded defense has regressed since Stevens took over, as a popular Boston sports personality would say, is fact, not opinion.  Perhaps Stevens should face criticism for neutering the best defender on the squad. 

“I was always on the ball last year so I could get time off the shot clock, but this year they want me to calm down a little bit more, not be so reckless I guess you could say on defense,”

When it comes to getting the best of out Avery Bradley defensively, Rivers got it right; Stevens has got it wrong.

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2013/10/boston_celtics_news_2013_avery_3.html

[TheFlex]

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team.

Tony Allen had to play on a team where the middle was manned by Raef LaFrenz and Mark Blount, and his defense didn't seem to suffer.

Tony Allen defensive rating 2004-05 to 2006-07: 104, 106, 104

Tony Allen defensive rating 2007-08 (year KG came to town): 99

Tony Allen defensive rating 2013-14 (with M. Gasol behind him): 101

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allento01.html#per_poss::none

You realize that the BR individual defensive "ratings" are practically useless, right? According to them, Eddie House is as good was Tony Allen defensively (he notched a rating of 100 in 07-08).

Considering House was part of one of the greatest defensive teams ever and had his defensive shortcomings hidden by KG/Perkins, this is not surprising. In each of the two years before coming to Boston, his defensive rating was 108. In the 50 games he played for Boston in 2009-10, 107. Then in the 18 games he played for the Knicks the same year, 113. 100 is the lowest defensive rating House ever posted.

If you are dissatisfied with such a statistic, consider some others. Tony Allen's defensive box plus minus in his first three years combined (before KG) was 1.8. When KG came to Boston, he posted a 1.9 DBPM in a single season (2007-08).

In his first three years, he averaged about 1.2 defensive win shares per year. In 2007-08, this number jumped up to 2.8.

In each of his first three seasons, his +/- per 100 possessions was: +7.0, -2.4, -2.1. With KG in 2007-08, this number jumped up to +9.8.

Right, and all of these metrics suffer from the same shortcoming: they track box scores and not actual game flow data. So you're trying to extrapolate individual defensive ability from something that is essentially a team statistic. The result is, predictably, more indicative of how the  team does rather than how the player does.

OK then, could you enlighten me with statistics of your choice?

I think he agreed without realizing it. He said the stats are team based which supports that you need other defensive players to play good defense. I think we can see that Bradley posted much better numbers on a team who played great help defense. Same with Tony Allen.

TP, I said something similar in my edit.

[Shamrocker]

He's no Phil Pressey, that's for sure. 

You got that right; Pressey can pass. 

[snively]

Keeping Courtney Lee and trading AB does seem like it would have been the wiser course of action in retrospect.  Courtney the better passer and steadier offensive player (if less capable of explosive scoring bursts) and the more conventional defensive player.  Plus he turned out to be a lot cheaper.

[D.o.s.]

I will say that acknowledging that Avery Bradley is not as good a defender as Tony Allen is not (and shouldn't be) a knock on Avery Bradley.

To use an analogy: Most scorers in the league are not as good at scoring as Carmelo Anthony. That doesn't mean they're bad at it.

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team. They have two bigs who can collapse the paint and they play good help defense. Tony Allen would probably get lit up on the Celtics.

If you're already being forced into hypotheticals, you might not be making a very good point. 

First. Nobody is forcing me into a hypothetical. Second. If you can't understand how help defense can help a player play better D then I have no interest in your opinion on this.

"Tony Allen would probably get lit up on the Celtics" is a hypothetical, and it's your entire point, because by any other color that horse is still a horse, and Bradley isn't the same kind of defender that Allen is, even though Allen is a decade older. Allen is a better defender than Bradley, regardless of the uniform.

[KeepRondo]

I will say that acknowledging that Avery Bradley is not as good a defender as Tony Allen is not (and shouldn't be) a knock on Avery Bradley.

To use an analogy: Most scorers in the league are not as good at scoring as Carmelo Anthony. That doesn't mean they're bad at it.

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team. They have two bigs who can collapse the paint and they play good help defense. Tony Allen would probably get lit up on the Celtics.

If you're already being forced into hypotheticals, you might not be making a very good point. 

First. Nobody is forcing me into a hypothetical. Second. If you can't understand how help defense can help a player play better D then I have no interest in your opinion on this.

"Tony Allen would probably get lit up on the Celtics" is a hypothetical, and it's your entire point, because by any other color that horse is still a horse, and Bradley isn't the same kind of defender that Allen is, even though Allen is a decade older. Allen is a better defender than Bradley, regardless of the uniform.

You don't need to teach me what a hypothetical is. I said no one forced me to use one nor does it discredit my points. Why you are trying to angle me on something this silly is just dumb.

[Vox_Populi]

No matter what anyone says, AB's a decent starting 2 to me. 

[D.o.s.]

I will say that acknowledging that Avery Bradley is not as good a defender as Tony Allen is not (and shouldn't be) a knock on Avery Bradley.

To use an analogy: Most scorers in the league are not as good at scoring as Carmelo Anthony. That doesn't mean they're bad at it.

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team. They have two bigs who can collapse the paint and they play good help defense. Tony Allen would probably get lit up on the Celtics.

If you're already being forced into hypotheticals, you might not be making a very good point. 

First. Nobody is forcing me into a hypothetical. Second. If you can't understand how help defense can help a player play better D then I have no interest in your opinion on this.

"Tony Allen would probably get lit up on the Celtics" is a hypothetical, and it's your entire point, because by any other color that horse is still a horse, and Bradley isn't the same kind of defender that Allen is, even though Allen is a decade older. Allen is a better defender than Bradley, regardless of the uniform.

You don't need to teach me what a hypothetical is. I said no one forced me to use one nor does it discredit my points. Why you are trying to angle me on something this silly is just dumb.

I suggest some warm milk before bed.

[KeepRondo]

I will say that acknowledging that Avery Bradley is not as good a defender as Tony Allen is not (and shouldn't be) a knock on Avery Bradley.

To use an analogy: Most scorers in the league are not as good at scoring as Carmelo Anthony. That doesn't mean they're bad at it.

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team. They have two bigs who can collapse the paint and they play good help defense. Tony Allen would probably get lit up on the Celtics.

If you're already being forced into hypotheticals, you might not be making a very good point. 

First. Nobody is forcing me into a hypothetical. Second. If you can't understand how help defense can help a player play better D then I have no interest in your opinion on this.

"Tony Allen would probably get lit up on the Celtics" is a hypothetical, and it's your entire point, because by any other color that horse is still a horse, and Bradley isn't the same kind of defender that Allen is, even though Allen is a decade older. Allen is a better defender than Bradley, regardless of the uniform.

You don't need to teach me what a hypothetical is. I said no one forced me to use one nor does it discredit my points. Why you are trying to angle me on something this silly is just dumb.

I suggest some warm milk before bed.

great one

[Fan from VT]

Bradley is probably a fine SG in the NBA. He might even be appropriately paid if the cap rises as much as predicted during his contract period. He's only going to be as good as his team. He is limited, but is likely to develop a valuable skill set as a "D and 3" kind of guy. He should be the 4th-5th best starter on a good team; unfortunately he's about the 3rd (like how Rondo at this stage should be a tied 2nd best or elite #3; Green should be a 3rd or 4th; Sully a 3rd best at this stage, etc...that's why we wouldn't expect to be good this year). He's not an all-star. That's fine.

Here's a quick "player A vs player B" type of comparison. Data is a couple days old, but it's the first 5 seasons of 2 players (Bradley's 5th season is very young). Then there's a comparison of the same two players by age, since Bradley was actually 20 when he started.





so against this relatively decent player, Bradley stacks up well, especially by age.

[Mazingerz]

Bradley is an excellent defender with offensive chops too. But he sometimes does not play within the system; He likes to shoot early and often; A little bit of coaching on this and he'll be fine;

[D.o.s.]

great one

Right, well, I find it helps me when I'm getting bent out of shape after railing on about silly things on the internet. Just trying to be friendly.

I don't think you'll find very many people, or very much evidence, that suggests Bradley's on Tony Allen's level defensively. Like I said before, that's fine -- he's still a good defender, he's just not TA. I don't understand why that's so upsetting to you?

[kozlodoev]

OK then, could you enlighten me with statistics of your choice?

edit: I would add that defensive ability in general relies on the talent of surrounding teammates. That's the premise of my argument.

I couldn't, because I am not aware of such. You'd actually have to watch a game and attempt to evaluate individual plays on their merit. If someone around here has access to Synergy Sports, perhaps they can share whether those guys have anything more sophisticated.

I think he agreed without realizing it. He said the stats are team based which supports that you need other defensive players to play good defense.

No, that's not what I said. I said that trying to extrapolate an individual defense metric from team stats results in a flawed estimate.

[Beat LA]

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team.

Tony Allen had to play on a team where the middle was manned by Raef LaFrenz and Mark Blount, and his defense didn't seem to suffer.

Tony Allen defensive rating 2004-05 to 2006-07: 104, 106, 104

Tony Allen defensive rating 2007-08 (year KG came to town): 99

Tony Allen defensive rating 2013-14 (with M. Gasol behind him): 101

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allento01.html#per_poss::none

How does Wesley Matthews compare to AB and Tony in terms of these metrics?  I'm just curious.  I love that guy lol.