Bradley is an awful starting SG

[Snakehead]

I will say that acknowledging that Avery Bradley is not as good a defender as Tony Allen is not (and shouldn't be) a knock on Avery Bradley.

To use an analogy: Most scorers in the league are not as good at scoring as Carmelo Anthony. That doesn't mean they're bad at it.

TP.  Well put.

I think a lot of people need the reality check that you can't lock down talented offensive perimeter players in this league right now.  If you manage to in a given game it's a team effort.

Remember last year in the Playoffs when we were talking about how awesome Tony Allen was on defense, mainly guarding Durant?  Durant was still scoring about 30 points every one of those games.

[KeepRondo]

I will say that acknowledging that Avery Bradley is not as good a defender as Tony Allen is not (and shouldn't be) a knock on Avery Bradley.

To use an analogy: Most scorers in the league are not as good at scoring as Carmelo Anthony. That doesn't mean they're bad at it.

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team. They have two bigs who can collapse the paint and they play good help defense. Tony Allen would probably get lit up on the Celtics.

[Snakehead]

i didn't say Bradley can't shoot, I said he has become a chucker and shouldn't be taking more shots than Green, Sully, or KO.  Bradley is a good spot up shooter and cutter, but those are the only shots he should be taking .

He is asked to shoot a lot.

There are games where he overshoots.  He did last night IMO but often he is just asked to shoot a lot.  Especially last year when we had very little offense from anyone else. And you know what?  He ends up shooting 40 % last year from three.  You and others can't deny it.

He is not like Tony Allen.  He is not a perfect player at all but he has his strengths.

I also hope he becomes more effecient and all but someone needs to shoot.  Our offense has hardly been the problem with our team so far.

[kozlodoev]

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team.

Tony Allen had to play on a team where the middle was manned by Raef LaFrenz and Mark Blount, and his defense didn't seem to suffer.

[TheFlex]

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team.

Tony Allen had to play on a team where the middle was manned by Raef LaFrenz and Mark Blount, and his defense didn't seem to suffer.

Tony Allen defensive rating 2004-05 to 2006-07: 104, 106, 104

Tony Allen defensive rating 2007-08 (year KG came to town): 99

Tony Allen defensive rating 2013-14 (with M. Gasol behind him): 101

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allento01.html#per_poss::none

[KeepRondo]

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team.

Tony Allen had to play on a team where the middle was manned by Raef LaFrenz and Mark Blount, and his defense didn't seem to suffer.

The game has changed a lot. Teams will spread you out more. There's no way Tony is as effective on this team as he is on Memphis.

The only decent defensive rotation we have is Rondo, Bradley, Smart, Green and Sully. You add some quickness and take away one of our slow bigs and Bradley can play aggressive D and looks good.

[kozlodoev]

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team.

Tony Allen had to play on a team where the middle was manned by Raef LaFrenz and Mark Blount, and his defense didn't seem to suffer.

Tony Allen defensive rating 2004-05 to 2006-07: 104, 106, 104

Tony Allen defensive rating 2007-08 (year KG came to town): 99

Tony Allen defensive rating 2013-14 (with M. Gasol behind him): 101

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allento01.html#per_poss::none

You realize that the BR individual defensive "ratings" are practically useless, right? According to them, Eddie House was as good as Tony Allen defensively (he notched a rating of 100 in 07-08).

[tstorey_97]

Avery Bradley is a solid shooting guard on a team ranked 28th in PPG allowed. That means they do NOT play defense.

Folks? Our hustling 6'2" shooting guard has no help on D...it makes a difference.

I would tend to agree that he is your "off the bench guy" which might apply to each and every one of our players excepting Rajon Rondo.

[D.o.s.]

I will say that acknowledging that Avery Bradley is not as good a defender as Tony Allen is not (and shouldn't be) a knock on Avery Bradley.

To use an analogy: Most scorers in the league are not as good at scoring as Carmelo Anthony. That doesn't mean they're bad at it.

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team. They have two bigs who can collapse the paint and they play good help defense. Tony Allen would probably get lit up on the Celtics.

If you're already being forced into hypotheticals, you might not be making a very good point. 

[TheFlex]

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team.

Tony Allen had to play on a team where the middle was manned by Raef LaFrenz and Mark Blount, and his defense didn't seem to suffer.

Tony Allen defensive rating 2004-05 to 2006-07: 104, 106, 104

Tony Allen defensive rating 2007-08 (year KG came to town): 99

Tony Allen defensive rating 2013-14 (with M. Gasol behind him): 101

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allento01.html#per_poss::none

You realize that the BR individual defensive "ratings" are practically useless, right? According to them, Eddie House is as good was Tony Allen defensively (he notched a rating of 100 in 07-08).

Considering House was part of one of the greatest defensive teams ever and had his defensive shortcomings hidden by KG/Perkins, this is not surprising. In each of the two years before coming to Boston, his defensive rating was 108. In the 50 games he played for Boston in 2009-10, 107. Then in the 18 games he played for the Knicks the same year, 113. 100 is the lowest defensive rating House ever posted.

If you are dissatisfied with such a statistic, consider some others. Tony Allen's defensive box plus minus in his first three years combined (before KG) was 1.8. When KG came to Boston, he posted a 1.9 DBPM in a single season (2007-08).

In his first three years, he averaged about 1.2 defensive win shares per year. In 2007-08, this number jumped up to 2.8.

In each of his first three seasons, his +/- per 100 possessions was: +7.0, -2.4, -2.1. With KG in 2007-08, this number jumped up to +9.8.

[KeepRondo]

I will say that acknowledging that Avery Bradley is not as good a defender as Tony Allen is not (and shouldn't be) a knock on Avery Bradley.

To use an analogy: Most scorers in the league are not as good at scoring as Carmelo Anthony. That doesn't mean they're bad at it.

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team. They have two bigs who can collapse the paint and they play good help defense. Tony Allen would probably get lit up on the Celtics.

If you're already being forced into hypotheticals, you might not be making a very good point. 

First. Nobody is forcing me into a hypothetical. Second. If you can't understand how help defense can help a player play better D then I have no interest in your opinion on this.

[TheFlex]

I will say that acknowledging that Avery Bradley is not as good a defender as Tony Allen is not (and shouldn't be) a knock on Avery Bradley.

To use an analogy: Most scorers in the league are not as good at scoring as Carmelo Anthony. That doesn't mean they're bad at it.

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team. They have two bigs who can collapse the paint and they play good help defense. Tony Allen would probably get lit up on the Celtics.

If you're already being forced into hypotheticals, you might not be making a very good point. 

First. Nobody is forcing me into a hypothetical. Second. If you can't understand how help defense can help a player play better D then I have no interest in your opinion on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BQR8THI98I

[kozlodoev]

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team.

Tony Allen had to play on a team where the middle was manned by Raef LaFrenz and Mark Blount, and his defense didn't seem to suffer.

Tony Allen defensive rating 2004-05 to 2006-07: 104, 106, 104

Tony Allen defensive rating 2007-08 (year KG came to town): 99

Tony Allen defensive rating 2013-14 (with M. Gasol behind him): 101

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allento01.html#per_poss::none

You realize that the BR individual defensive "ratings" are practically useless, right? According to them, Eddie House is as good was Tony Allen defensively (he notched a rating of 100 in 07-08).

Considering House was part of one of the greatest defensive teams ever and had his defensive shortcomings hidden by KG/Perkins, this is not surprising. In each of the two years before coming to Boston, his defensive rating was 108. In the 50 games he played for Boston in 2009-10, 107. Then in the 18 games he played for the Knicks the same year, 113. 100 is the lowest defensive rating House ever posted.

If you are dissatisfied with such a statistic, consider some others. Tony Allen's defensive box plus minus in his first three years combined (before KG) was 1.8. When KG came to Boston, he posted a 1.9 DBPM in a single season (2007-08).

In his first three years, he averaged about 1.2 defensive win shares per year. In 2007-08, this number jumped up to 2.8.

In each of his first three seasons, his +/- per 100 possessions was: +7.0, -2.4, -2.1. With KG in 2007-08, this number jumped up to +9.8.

Right, and all of these metrics suffer from the same shortcoming: they track box scores and not actual game flow data. So you're trying to extrapolate individual defensive ability from something that is essentially a team statistic. The result is, predictably, more indicative of how the  team does rather than how the player does.

[wiley]

No. He's not that bad at all.  He's not the type to shine on a bad team imo.  He actually will shine more once the C's are good again.  When there are a couple more offensive options and an anchor for the defense Bradley's strengths will be on display again as his role will come back into clearer focus.

He can start on a great team (think Thabo Sef. with a bit less defense due to size and a bit more offense, or the Celtics in the playoffs before he got injured), but I also picture him as a spark off the bench who is allowed to bother the opposing PG with full gusto.  I think Smart makes sense as a starter but maybe not until later in the year or even next season.  Smart has an advantage being so big and strong.  He'll miss more threes than Avery but he's the kind of player who should be on the floor as much as possible.

I was about to post a really sarcastic comment about the law of averages, but then I saw this. This is a very good comparison and one that I haven't seen before. TP

Not skipping a beat, does this mean Bradley is starter-worthy on a contender???

Yes.  He could start for Memphis.  Right now it's Lee at the 2 and TA at the 3.  Bradley could be the two on that team no problem.

[TheFlex]

Tony Allen plays on a good defensive team.

Tony Allen had to play on a team where the middle was manned by Raef LaFrenz and Mark Blount, and his defense didn't seem to suffer.

Tony Allen defensive rating 2004-05 to 2006-07: 104, 106, 104

Tony Allen defensive rating 2007-08 (year KG came to town): 99

Tony Allen defensive rating 2013-14 (with M. Gasol behind him): 101

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allento01.html#per_poss::none

You realize that the BR individual defensive "ratings" are practically useless, right? According to them, Eddie House is as good was Tony Allen defensively (he notched a rating of 100 in 07-08).

Considering House was part of one of the greatest defensive teams ever and had his defensive shortcomings hidden by KG/Perkins, this is not surprising. In each of the two years before coming to Boston, his defensive rating was 108. In the 50 games he played for Boston in 2009-10, 107. Then in the 18 games he played for the Knicks the same year, 113. 100 is the lowest defensive rating House ever posted.

If you are dissatisfied with such a statistic, consider some others. Tony Allen's defensive box plus minus in his first three years combined (before KG) was 1.8. When KG came to Boston, he posted a 1.9 DBPM in a single season (2007-08).

In his first three years, he averaged about 1.2 defensive win shares per year. In 2007-08, this number jumped up to 2.8.

In each of his first three seasons, his +/- per 100 possessions was: +7.0, -2.4, -2.1. With KG in 2007-08, this number jumped up to +9.8.

Right, and all of these metrics suffer from the same shortcoming: they track box scores and not actual game flow data. So you're trying to extrapolate individual defensive ability from something that is essentially a team statistic. The result is, predictably, more indicative of how the  team does rather than how the player does.

OK then, could you enlighten me with statistics of your choice?

edit: I would add that defensive ability in general relies on the talent of surrounding teammates. That's the premise of my argument.