So No Rondo, No Triple Double and We Win

[kozlodoev]

You know, for all the people who complained of him endlessly dribbling the ball last year, Rondo has had absolutely no problem playing off of it and letting other guys, like Turner, initiate things.  Has anyone else noticed this?  I just think it's important to note that he has bought into what Stevens wants to do and has changed his game accordingly.  At least, that's what I've seen so far.

The problem is, Rondo is completely useless on offense in this case.

[playdream]

You know, for all the people who complained of him endlessly dribbling the ball last year, Rondo has had absolutely no problem playing off of it and letting other guys, like Turner, initiate things.  Has anyone else noticed this?  I just think it's important to note that he has bought into what Stevens wants to do and has changed his game accordingly.  At least, that's what I've seen so far.

The problem is, Rondo is completely useless on offense in this case.

I do noticed?that Rondo is trying to adjust, not so dominate/pounding so much this season
But still not good enough, still walking slowly very much and let the opponent set the defense
I will wait perhaps 10 games to make a judgement on that
and also for the shooting.. 2 years without any improvement is a bit unacceptable

[manl_lui]

You know, for all the people who complained of him endlessly dribbling the ball last year, Rondo has had absolutely no problem playing off of it and letting other guys, like Turner, initiate things.  Has anyone else noticed this?  I just think it's important to note that he has bought into what Stevens wants to do and has changed his game accordingly.  At least, that's what I've seen so far.

The problem is, Rondo is completely useless on offense in this case.

I do noticed?that Rondo is trying to adjust, not so dominate/pounding so much this season
But still not good enough, still walking slowly very much and let the opponent set the defense
I will wait perhaps 10 games to make a judgement on that
and also for the shooting.. 2 years without any improvement is a bit unacceptable

that simply is not true, he does let Turner and Smart initiate the offense at times, but I am seeing a very aggressive Rondo this season. I know it's a small sample size so far, but what I am seeing is one adjusting to the new offense. He pushes the ball, runs, and trying for fast offense. When he is not initiating he still helps direct traffic.

[Donoghus]

It's all eyeball but I think Rondo has been doing a better job playing off the ball this season than he has in the past. 

I still wouldn't say he's a hugely effective player off the ball, though.

[Evantime34]

It's all eyeball but I think Rondo has been doing a better job playing off the ball this season than he has in the past. 

I still wouldn't say he's a hugely effective player off the ball, though.

Even if he isn't playing a ton better off the ball, I still think he is standing at the top of the key dribbling the air out of the ball considerably less this year.

[Donoghus]

It's all eyeball but I think Rondo has been doing a better job playing off the ball this season than he has in the past. 

I still wouldn't say he's a hugely effective player off the ball, though.

Even if he isn't playing a ton better off the ball, I still think he is standing at the top of the key dribbling the air out of the ball considerably less this year.

It might just be a matter of realizing that this offense struggles in half court sets and really needs to push the tempo to be effective on that end of the court. 

You really can't do the "standing around/waiting til the shot clock is under 5 seconds" and expect wonders out of this offense.

[Snakehead]

It's all eyeball but I think Rondo has been doing a better job playing off the ball this season than he has in the past. 

I still wouldn't say he's a hugely effective player off the ball, though.

Even if he isn't playing a ton better off the ball, I still think he is standing at the top of the key dribbling the air out of the ball considerably less this year.

It might just be a matter of realizing that this offense struggles in half court sets and really needs to push the tempo to be effective on that end of the court. 

You really can't do the "standing around/waiting til the shot clock is under 5 seconds" and expect wonders out of this offense.

I agree with this.  With how our offense has played so far, unless we are playing a really strong defensive team, we should have probably had a good enough shot to take before the end of the clock.  Especially with out bigs shooting how they are.

Watching these games, even the Bulls break down pretty quickly at some point trying to cover two bigs out to the three point line.  The shots have been there.

As far as Rondo, I think he has shown more of a willingness to give up the ball.  I don't think he's such a strong off ball threat to a degree he wasn't but he does rebound well and I think the offense is just running better as a whole.  Put the best passer in the league in that offense and he will find the shooters.  Not like his assist numbers are down even though he's giving up the ball.

So I don't  think he's grown as some off ball threat but he is just running the offense (which seems to be a strong unit) to a T.  I don't see much to complain about him off ball when he's passing the ball to a shooter.  Maybe he isn't a shooting threat but if the ball finds him he is almost always making the right play and getting the ball to a player where they want it and where they can score.

[nickagneta]

Some stats to ponder when complaining that Rondo is holding back the Celtics offense or isn't fitting into the offensive system:

In the 5 games Rondo has played in the Celtics scored 106 points per game.
Against Chicago the Celtics scored 106 points.

In the 5 games Rondo has played in the Celtics have averaged 25 assists per game
Against Chicago the Celtics recorded 25 assists.

The Celtics had a slightly higher shooting percentage against Chicago than when Rondo played in the other 5 games but that comes down to hitting 1 more three pointer and 2 more 2 pointers than they normally do.

The Celtics took 3 less free throws against Chicago and made 3 less free throws against Chicago than they normally do.

To me this signifies that for one game, a few players picked up the slack and the offensive system continued to work at a near league leading pace(the Celtics averaged the 2nd most points per game in the NBA and have the 7th highest offensive rating in the NBA).

Rondo has an offensive rating of 97, one of the worst on the team. His two back ups, Marcus Smart and Evan Turner, have offensive ratings of 94 and 97 respectively, meaning that, the PG position in this offensive system isn't scoring and doesn't have to score to make the offense as a whole very successful.

Draw any conclusions you want from these facts. To me they point to a player that is widely regarded as one of the best passers  and floor generals in the NBA doing his job and making his team's offense very good and that for one game, some others picked up the slack because that's what players do when their best player misses a game, a tale as old as time in sports.

[Tr1boy]

Some stats to ponder when complaining that Rondo is holding back the Celtics offense or isn't fitting into the offensive system:

In the 5 games Rondo has played in the Celtics scored 106 points per game.
Against Chicago the Celtics scored 106 points.

In the 5 games Rondo has played in the Celtics have averaged 25 assists per game
Against Chicago the Celtics recorded 25 assists.

The Celtics had a slightly higher shooting percentage against Chicago than when Rondo played in the other 5 games but that comes down to hitting 1 more three pointer and 2 more 2 pointers than they normally do.

The Celtics took 3 less free throws against Chicago and made 3 less free throws against Chicago than they normally do.

To me this signifies that for one game, a few players picked up the slack and the offensive system continued to work at a near league leading pace(the Celtics averaged the 2nd most points per game in the NBA and have the 7th highest offensive rating in the NBA).

Rondo has an offensive rating of 97, one of the worst on the team. His two back ups, Marcus Smart and Evan Turner, have offensive ratings of 94 and 97 respectively, meaning that, the PG position in this offensive system isn't scoring and doesn't have to score to make the offense as a whole very successful.

Draw any conclusions you want from these facts. To me they point to a player that is widely regarded as one of the best passers  and floor generals in the NBA doing his job and making his team's offense very good and that for one game, some others picked up the slack because that's what players do when their best player misses a game, a tale as old as time in sports.

Did the Bulls pickup the slack without Rose?

You also make it sound it , it was a one time thing that this team was able to score so many points vs the Bulls without Rondo.  That has not been the case though and the offense has looked good for the most part ever since the start of preseason (without Rondo and when Rondo sits).

Without Rondo, the offense works a little differently.  Other guys get more involved. We get to utilize our bigs passing skills to the max.  This is a bigger deal than most think here bc they get to pull out their man from the basket and guys have easier time to drive in to cut to the basket for a layups. Or drive in and kick it out for wide open jump shots. In addition the other option is for KO, Zeller etc. around the perimeter to set excellent picks and guys like AB, Turner have  open looks to make their jump shots.   Rondo gets these kind of picks , space also but is usually hesitant to shoot unless he is super wide open.

So the question is, if this teams offense functions with Rondo or without (my preference) what value is Rondo really adding?  On top of this, our team D again imo plays better without Rondo on the floor.  People are right, that these days AB or Smart is guarding opposing teams pgs. So then who is Rondo guarding?  That is a matchup nightmare waiting to happen. Rondo also not the type to be focused on the guy he is guarding, overhelps alot,  gets ready to go after the defensive rebound a tad too quickly and worse case his man has wide open jump shots or drives by him to get to the basket without alot of fuss.   People can harp on me on this issue all they want, but i have not seen yet Rondo stick to his man with two arms up bothering jump shots or backpeddle with effort to prevent his man from getting a clean shot off . You need to make an effort for both man to man and team defense

The Rondo debate continues to be a distraction.  So if Ainge wants to sign him for the long term, he needs to change or add more to this lineup that can mask Rondo's deficiencies (shot blockers, deadly shooters that can run around screens all day). So Rondo gets his stats but the team also wins games.  If not, trade Rondo, lets get more assets to add to our collection (hopefully trade the multiple picks for a high calibre prospect for 2015, 2016 etc) and focus on building this team 100 percent BS way

[Evantime34]

Some stats to ponder when complaining that Rondo is holding back the Celtics offense or isn't fitting into the offensive system:

In the 5 games Rondo has played in the Celtics scored 106 points per game.
Against Chicago the Celtics scored 106 points.

In the 5 games Rondo has played in the Celtics have averaged 25 assists per game
Against Chicago the Celtics recorded 25 assists.

The Celtics had a slightly higher shooting percentage against Chicago than when Rondo played in the other 5 games but that comes down to hitting 1 more three pointer and 2 more 2 pointers than they normally do.

The Celtics took 3 less free throws against Chicago and made 3 less free throws against Chicago than they normally do.

To me this signifies that for one game, a few players picked up the slack and the offensive system continued to work at a near league leading pace(the Celtics averaged the 2nd most points per game in the NBA and have the 7th highest offensive rating in the NBA).

Rondo has an offensive rating of 97, one of the worst on the team. His two back ups, Marcus Smart and Evan Turner, have offensive ratings of 94 and 97 respectively, meaning that, the PG position in this offensive system isn't scoring and doesn't have to score to make the offense as a whole very successful.

Draw any conclusions you want from these facts. To me they point to a player that is widely regarded as one of the best passers  and floor generals in the NBA doing his job and making his team's offense very good and that for one game, some others picked up the slack because that's what players do when their best player misses a game, a tale as old as time in sports.

Did the Bulls pickup the slack without Rose?

You also make it sound it , it was a one time thing that this team was able to score so many points vs the Bulls without Rondo.  That has not been the case though and the offense has looked good for the most part ever since the start of preseason (without Rondo and when Rondo sits).

Without Rondo, the offense works a little differently.  Other guys get more involved. We get to utilize our bigs passing skills to the max.  This is a bigger deal than most think here bc they get to pull out their man from the basket and guys have easier time to drive in to cut to the basket for a layups. Or drive in and kick it out for wide open jump shots. In addition the other option is for KO, Zeller etc. around the perimeter to set excellent picks and guys like AB, Turner have  open looks to make their jump shots.   Rondo gets these kind of picks , space also but is usually hesitant to shoot unless he is super wide open.

So the question is, if this teams offense functions with Rondo or without (my preference) what value is Rondo really adding?  On top of this, our team D again imo plays better without Rondo on the floor.  People are right, that these days AB or Smart is guarding opposing teams pgs. So then who is Rondo guarding?  That is a matchup nightmare waiting to happen. Rondo also not the type to be focused on the guy he is guarding, overhelps alot,  gets ready to go after the defensive rebound a tad too quickly and worse case his man has wide open jump shots or drives by him to get to the basket without alot of fuss.   People can harp on me on this issue all they want, but i have not seen yet Rondo stick to his man with two arms up bothering jump shots or backpeddle with effort to prevent his man from getting a clean shot off . You need to make an effort for both man to man and team defense

The Rondo debate continues to be a distraction.  So if Ainge wants to sign him for the long term, he needs to change or add more to this lineup that can mask Rondo's deficiencies (shot blockers, deadly shooters that can run around screens all day). So Rondo gets his stats but the team also wins games.  If not, trade Rondo, lets get more assets to add to our collection (hopefully trade the multiple picks for a high calibre prospect for 2015, 2016 etc) and focus on building this team 100 percent BS way

First off good post. You argued your point well. However I have some comments

1. I think the Bulls game was a bad example of the offense working just as well without Rondo. The Bulls were on their 4th game in 5 nights and didn't look up to their normal standards on defense

2. Pre season results of the Celtics looking better without Rondo should be taken with a grain of salt. Similarly to the Bulls game in which the Bulls looked tired and didn't defend up to their ability, pre season teams don't play up to their capability.

3. I agree on Rondo's defense for the most part, although I think his effort has been better so far this year.

4. The last paragraph is where I disagree the most. I'm not sure the Rondo debate is a distraction to anyone other than the fans, and even with the fans it has dissipated with his solid start to the season.

5. If Rondo's value to the Celtics is higher than any package they are offered keeping him is the way to go regardless of if the team currently fits him perfectly. Trading him now because he isn't a perfect fit is a less favorable outcome than keeping him and using him to lure a shot blocking big man who would otherwise not come to the Celtics without Rondo. The best course of action is to be patient because it has a higher possibility for greater returns rather than deal Rondo now because he doesn't fit perfectly.

6. There are things about Rondo's game that frustrate the biggest Rondo supporters, but dealing him makes the likelihood of signing a free agent (or trading for a player and them agreeing to an extenstion) diminish. This means you are taking an even bigger hit than the negative return on value you would get for Rondo in a trade player wise.

[SHAQATTACK]

We need Rondo in a playoff series .  The game is different .  They tend to end up being grind it out games with lots of older vets on both sides. With few rookies running the court .

Smart is couple years at least away from operating set after set of this style of play game after game .
We'd be smart to pay Rondo , so we can attract a top level center.

[GetLucky]

Some stats to ponder when complaining that Rondo is holding back the Celtics offense or isn't fitting into the offensive system:

In the 5 games Rondo has played in the Celtics scored 106 points per game.
Against Chicago the Celtics scored 106 points.

In the 5 games Rondo has played in the Celtics have averaged 25 assists per game
Against Chicago the Celtics recorded 25 assists.

The Celtics had a slightly higher shooting percentage against Chicago than when Rondo played in the other 5 games but that comes down to hitting 1 more three pointer and 2 more 2 pointers than they normally do.

The Celtics took 3 less free throws against Chicago and made 3 less free throws against Chicago than they normally do.

To me this signifies that for one game, a few players picked up the slack and the offensive system continued to work at a near league leading pace(the Celtics averaged the 2nd most points per game in the NBA and have the 7th highest offensive rating in the NBA).

Rondo has an offensive rating of 97, one of the worst on the team. His two back ups, Marcus Smart and Evan Turner, have offensive ratings of 94 and 97 respectively, meaning that, the PG position in this offensive system isn't scoring and doesn't have to score to make the offense as a whole very successful.

Draw any conclusions you want from these facts. To me they point to a player that is widely regarded as one of the best passers  and floor generals in the NBA doing his job and making his team's offense very good and that for one game, some others picked up the slack because that's what players do when their best player misses a game, a tale as old as time in sports.

Did the Bulls pickup the slack without Rose?

You also make it sound it , it was a one time thing that this team was able to score so many points vs the Bulls without Rondo.  That has not been the case though and the offense has looked good for the most part ever since the start of preseason (without Rondo and when Rondo sits).

Without Rondo, the offense works a little differently.  Other guys get more involved. We get to utilize our bigs passing skills to the max.  This is a bigger deal than most think here bc they get to pull out their man from the basket and guys have easier time to drive in to cut to the basket for a layups. Or drive in and kick it out for wide open jump shots. In addition the other option is for KO, Zeller etc. around the perimeter to set excellent picks and guys like AB, Turner have  open looks to make their jump shots.   Rondo gets these kind of picks , space also but is usually hesitant to shoot unless he is super wide open.

So the question is, if this teams offense functions with Rondo or without (my preference) what value is Rondo really adding? ...

Let me start off by saying that I am a Rondo proponent. I think he is a special talent, and I hope the Celtics resign him and bring home 18 with him as a key player. However, there is some truth to what people are saying. Before the season, I said I wanted this teem to play like the 2002 Sacramento Kings (in pace and style of play). And so far, they do resemble a Kings-lite.

If Rondo was a Mike-Bibby-type shooter, it would add a whole new dynamic to the team, but he is not. People are on point saying his off-the ball game (threat of shooting) somewhat limits the point we can reach. However, I think what Rondo adds to a team is consistency. I think the Bulls game was a little bit of an anomaly. The Bulls were tired, and we were one call on Kelly stepping out of bounds away from losing. Down the stretch, our offense stagnated a little bit, not necessarily in ball movement but with overall effectiveness. This is where Rondo comes in.

For all of his streaky shooting (which I see as much improved, but I know others would beg to differ), it has been a loooong time since Rondo struggled to get people open. This is invaluable, especially when the game comes down to it. That was the problem with my aforementioned Kings. When the game broke down, they kept passing the ball around like a hot potato with no purpose or definitive actions. Rondo, even though he doesn't look to score, makes definitive actions that greatly increase the likelihood of a score. At his best, Rondo does this all the time and sprinkles the threat of him scoring as well, which puts him over the top. Rondo's seemingly fully-recovered quickness will also help this. So while the offense may on average be the same, I think the timeliness of the actions are huge.

EDIT: I also second what nickagenta said. Rondo is a great floor general for a fast-paced offense. (Remember when everyone was clamoring for that a few years back, saying, "Free Rondo," and all the like?)

[nickagneta]

Without Rondo, the offense works a little differently.  Other guys get more involved. We get to utilize our bigs passing skills to the max.  This is a bigger deal than most think here bc they get to pull out their man from the basket and guys have easier time to drive in to cut to the basket for a layups. Or drive in and kick it out for wide open jump shots. In addition the other option is for KO, Zeller etc. around the perimeter to set excellent picks and guys like AB, Turner have  open looks to make their jump shots.   Rondo gets these kind of picks , space also but is usually hesitant to shoot unless he is super wide open.
 

This I don't agree with, haven't seen happening with my own eyes, and see no other stats that verify it. KO Zeller and Sully have been roaming the perimeter making picks all season long, with or without Rondo. Everyone is getting involved in the offense, with or without Rondo. Rondo's usage percentage is at 18% one of the lowest in his career and a major decrease from past years. The ball is moving great whether with or without Rondo.

The only difference I see is that when the pace isn't pushed or when the defense beats the C's down the floor and the half court offense has to be used, it runs smoother with a true PG like Rondo running it than without. If this team is expected to make the playoffs, when defenses excel and the pace is slowed to a crawl, having a PG like Rondo because infinitely more valuable.

I also see Rondo playing much better defense than he has the past couple of years with better effort to fight through screens and less ole knock the ball away from behind type moves. Unfortunately, the Celtics defense as a whole sucks. Its one of the worst in the league with or without Rondo. Smart has shown flashes. Bradley appears better than last year but not back to his 2011-12 form. and everyone else, and I mean EVERYONE ELSE, their defense has been as bad or worse than Rondo's defense and as a collective they are poor.

Can't really see blaming the defense of this team solely on Rondo. Same way I can't see saying the offense runs tremendously better with Rondo. As a collective, this team has a very good offense and a very bad defense and Rondo missing just one game isn't going to provide any long term evidence that a FINALLY HEALTHY Rondo is or is not fitting into this team.

[Chris22]

More wins without Rondo for the last four years....

 2011-12
w/out
8 wins 5 losses
win percentage 62%

with
31 wins 22 losses
win percentage 58%

2012-13
w/out
21 wins 17 losses
win percentage 55%

with
20 wins 23 losses
win percentage 46%

2013-14
w/out
19 wins 33 loses
win percentage 36%

with
6 wins 24 losses
win percentage 20%

2014-15
w/out
1 win 0 losses
win percentage 100%

with
2 wins 3 losses
win percentage 40%

[Donoghus]

Math is great, isn't?

Without any frame of reference or context, you can attempt to do whatever you want with it.