I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG

[BballTim]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

  The problem is you're dealing in hypotheticals and generalities and he's talking about what actually happens on the court. It might be true that KG doesn't prefer playing in the post to shooting jumpers but it's also true that he posted up enough times with Rondo on the court during his time with the Celtics to draw conclusions about what the result was. Claiming KG likes to shoot from the outside doesn't mean he wasn't able to post up successfully when he was on the court with Rondo.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some. He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands. Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball. Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time. Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

  Talking about Rondo's shooting isn't sacrilegious, just like disagreeing with your claims isn't sacrilegious. It's fairly telling that Rondo's already 8 seasons into his nba career and played with a myriad of big men with all types of offensive games but you aren't able to use any of them as examples of Rondo not being able to play well with them. There's a reason for that.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

  Why is Rondo's 3 point percentage over the last 5 seasons evidence of Rondo's ability to play off the ball and not the outside shots that he takes much more often? His fg% from 10-23 feet is probably over the league average for his career, and he takes about 4 times as many of those shots as threes.

Best big man, besides KG, Rondo has played with since he became a starter is? Nobody that he would have to adjust his game for.

  Ah. So the better the offensive player, the more likely he is to struggle? You're grasping. And why would Rondo have to adjust his game? To avoid good scoring opportunities? Think about what's actually being discussed for a moment. Good post players are better at a difficult task (getting the ball with your back to the basket and scoring despite tight coverage) than most, but they don't score more easily in those situations than they do off of better scoring opportunities. In your scenario Rondo's changing his game to avoid giving the big easy scoring opportunities in order for the big to try and score in more difficult ways. I'm guessing most nba coaches won't try that.

31.3% on spot up attempts over 10 feet last season. That's not bad. That's atrocious. If you have the numbers for previous years then post them and we'll go from there.

  As always, context is necessary. Rondo's not a great spot up shooter but I don't think he's atrocious. Out of players who averaged 15+ minutes a game last year Rondo was 256th out of 371 in spot up eFG%, so near the top of the bottom third. Players with a spot up eFG% within 1% of Rondo's included Deng, Gay, LMA, Bass, Splitter, Westbrook, Hayward, Budinger, Thad Young and Kyrie Irving. Keep in mind that this is a season where Rondo was struggling to come back from a knee injury, so don't be surprised if he does better in the future.

[Boris Badenov]

Taking a short break from this well-informed and reasoned discussion of "Rondo can't [fill in the blank]," I'm here to report that the guy who's supposed to be better than him is currently at 25% FG and 18% 3P%, and might be setting a preseason record for airballs.

[Celtics18]

Eddie,

I found the catch and shoot stats on NBA.COM.  Unfortunately, they only started their advanced stats page last season, and, like you, I can't find those numbers going back beyond last season. 

One thing that did jump out at me from perusing those stats, though, is that for top point guards, generally speaking, the catch and shoot is not a big part of their games. 

The point guard who scored the most off catch and shot situations last season was the mediocre Jose Calderon.  He scored 5.8 PPG off catch and shoot, good for 21st in the league in that category.  That means that the top twenty players in that category all played a position other than point guard. 

Damian Lillard was second among point guards at 4.5 points per game off catch and shoot.  He ranked 62nd among all players in that category.  He was followed by Lowry and Curry, who both scored 4.1 PPG off the catch and shot.

Chris Paul was at 1.7, Westbrook at 1.2, Wall at 2.3, Dragic at 2.7, Parker at 1.5, Kyrie Irving at 3.0, Ty Lawson at 2.0, Bledsoe at 1.6, Rondo at 1.0 per game.

So, while Rondo was bad, a player like John Wall, who actually had a fairly good number of catch and shoot points per game for a point guard, only scored 1.3 PPG more than Rondo in those situations.

I think it's fair to say that based on the numbers from last season, top point guards generally don't produce a large percentage of their points in catch and shoot situations relative to other positions.

This makes sense intuitively.  The numbers back up what makes intuitive sense. 

[greece66]

Taking a short break from this well-informed and reasoned discussion of "Rondo can't [fill in the blank]," I'm here to report that the guy who's supposed to be better than him is currently at 25% FG and 18% 3P%, and might be setting a preseason record for airballs.

This is exactly what is so cool about him. He is going to trample our offence!

[Nerf DPOY]

Taking a short break from this well-informed and reasoned discussion of "Rondo can't [fill in the blank]," I'm here to report that the guy who's supposed to be better than him is currently at 25% FG and 18% 3P%, and might be setting a preseason record for airballs.

The only type of player whose faults are more grossly overlooked than the "shiny new toy" is the one whose exposure has been primarily on NBA Draftnet and youtube highlights. Conversely, once a player gets paid, there's a faction of this blog that will distort and exaggerate any and every one of their limitations.

[Boris Badenov]

Taking a short break from this well-informed and reasoned discussion of "Rondo can't [fill in the blank]," I'm here to report that the guy who's supposed to be better than him is currently at 25% FG and 18% 3P%, and might be setting a preseason record for airballs.

The only type of player whose faults are more grossly overlooked than the "shiny new toy" is the one whose exposure has been primarily on NBA Draftnet and youtube highlights. Conversely, once a player gets paid, there's a faction of this blog that will distort and exaggerate any and every one of their limitations.

I don't have time to read other blogs, but is this pervasive? Is everyone on the OKC blog calling for Mitch McGary to replace Ibaka? Are MIN fans clamoring for Zach Lavine to replace Rubio? Is the Utah blogosphere awash in "Exum is better than Hayward" posts?

I'm genuinely curious about this.

[BballTim]

Taking a short break from this well-informed and reasoned discussion of "Rondo can't [fill in the blank]," I'm here to report that the guy who's supposed to be better than him is currently at 25% FG and 18% 3P%, and might be setting a preseason record for airballs.

The only type of player whose faults are more grossly overlooked than the "shiny new toy" is the one whose exposure has been primarily on NBA Draftnet and youtube highlights. Conversely, once a player gets paid, there's a faction of this blog that will distort and exaggerate any and every one of their limitations.

I don't have time to read other blogs, but is this pervasive? Is everyone on the OKC blog calling for Mitch McGary to replace Ibaka? Are MIN fans clamoring for Zach Lavine to replace Rubio? Is the Utah blogosphere awash in "Exum is better than Hayward" posts?

I'm genuinely curious about this.

  I don't really spend much time on other blogs either but I looked around a little when I joined celticsblogs, checking out the celts areas of other sites. The quality of the posts you'd see elsewhere was IMO lower than what was here. Of course a lot of posters have joined since then, and I'm suspicious that some of them came from those other sites.

[Nerf DPOY]

Taking a short break from this well-informed and reasoned discussion of "Rondo can't [fill in the blank]," I'm here to report that the guy who's supposed to be better than him is currently at 25% FG and 18% 3P%, and might be setting a preseason record for airballs.

The only type of player whose faults are more grossly overlooked than the "shiny new toy" is the one whose exposure has been primarily on NBA Draftnet and youtube highlights. Conversely, once a player gets paid, there's a faction of this blog that will distort and exaggerate any and every one of their limitations.

I don't have time to read other blogs, but is this pervasive? Is everyone on the OKC blog calling for Mitch McGary to replace Ibaka? Are MIN fans clamoring for Zach Lavine to replace Rubio? Is the Utah blogosphere awash in "Exum is better than Hayward" posts?

I'm genuinely curious about this.

I'm guessing that it's everywhere. In my time spent monitoring Real GM I've seen Big Al go from overrated in Boston, overrated and then a scapegoat in Minny, to generally despised in Utah. Now, he's a savior again in Charlotte. It's like the seasons, beautiful in its way. I've also seen a similar revolution with Boozer in Cleveland, Utah, and Chicago.  No, not a revolution, because it always seems to end with the fan base hating him. A 180, I guess.

Edit: In fairness to Utah, Al really did seem to make an unprecedented leap last year.

[BballTim]

Taking a short break from this well-informed and reasoned discussion of "Rondo can't [fill in the blank]," I'm here to report that the guy who's supposed to be better than him is currently at 25% FG and 18% 3P%, and might be setting a preseason record for airballs.

The only type of player whose faults are more grossly overlooked than the "shiny new toy" is the one whose exposure has been primarily on NBA Draftnet and youtube highlights. Conversely, once a player gets paid, there's a faction of this blog that will distort and exaggerate any and every one of their limitations.

I don't have time to read other blogs, but is this pervasive? Is everyone on the OKC blog calling for Mitch McGary to replace Ibaka? Are MIN fans clamoring for Zach Lavine to replace Rubio? Is the Utah blogosphere awash in "Exum is better than Hayward" posts?

I'm genuinely curious about this.

I'm guessing that it's everywhere. In my time spent monitoring Real GM I've seen Big Al go from overrated in Boston, overrated and then a scapegoat in Minny, to generally despised in Utah. Now, he's a savior again in Charlotte. It's like the seasons, beautiful in its way. I've also seen a similar revolution with Boozer in Cleveland, Utah, and Chicago.  No, not a revolution, because it always seems to end with the fan base hating him. A 180, I guess.

Edit: In fairness to Utah, Al really did seem to make an unprecedented leap last year.

  I don't think he did, I thought he was the main reason Utah was semi-competitive the last few years. I thought that the supposed plan to let Al and Millsap to leave to make room for Favors and Kanter was ill advised at best.

[mmmmm]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some. He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands. Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball. Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time. Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

The part in bold is completely divorced from reality.  Either you are too young to have actually watched the Celtics while KG was here, slept through the whole thing or are willfully posting revisionist history in order to support your flawed premise.

Any simple google of "Kevin Garnett post up moves" will get you a bazillion hits, both articles and video, illustrating that KG most definitely was a very, very effective and prolific back-to-the-basket post-up player.  Arguably one of the best in the last couple of decades.  And that includes his time with the Celtics and with Rondo.

He had several signature post-up moves.  His favorite was to call for the ball on the left side of the paint, back his defender down while the rest of the Celtics cleared, then do his shake-and-bake turn-around shot from 4-6 feet to whichever side the poor victim didn't bite on.  Money.   Anybody who actually paid attention to the Celtics from 20017-2012 saw this move a million times.

He also loved to back his man in on the right side, step the the middle of the paint for a lean-away left-hand hook that was also money.

It is true that KG started to go to the post less in his last year and a half with the C's, but part of that was the need for his high percentage 16 footer to help create spacing due to blatant roster issues without a legit center to balance against KG and the 3PT shooters we brought in to replace Ray underperformed.   But that wasn't due to anything about Rondo.

Edit: Fix typos.

[Monkhouse]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some. He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands. Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball. Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time. Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

The part in bold is completely divorced from reality.  Either you are too young to have actually watched the Celtics while KG was here, slept through the whole thing or are willfully posting revisionist history in order to support your flawed premise.

Any simple google of "Kevin Garnett post up moves" will get you a bazillion hits, both articles and video, illustrating that KG most definitely was a very, very effective and prolific back-to-the-basket post-up player.  Arguably one of the best in the last couple of decades.  And that includes his time with the Celtics and with Rondo.

He had several signature post-up moves.  His favorite was to call for the ball on the left side of the paint, back his defender down while the rest of the Celtics cleared, then do his shake-and-bake turn-around shot from 4-6 feet to whichever side the poor victim didn't bite on.  Money.   Anybody who actually paid attention to the Celtics from 20017-2012 saw this move a million times.

He also loved to back his man in on the right side, step the the middle of the paint for a lean-away left-hand hook that was also money.

It is true that KG started to go to the post less in his last year and a half with the C's, but part of that was the need for his high percentage 16 footer to help create spacing had blatant roster issues without a legit center to balance against KG and the 3PT shooters we brought in to replace Ray underperformed.   But that wasn't due to anything about Rondo.

McHale taught KG post moves.... 

[D.o.s.]

Hakeem taught Dwight post moves too.

If only teaching were that simple.

[Eddie20]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some. He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands. Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball. Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time. Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

The part in bold is completely divorced from reality.  Either you are too young to have actually watched the Celtics while KG was here, slept through the whole thing or are willfully posting revisionist history in order to support your flawed premise.

Any simple google of "Kevin Garnett post up moves" will get you a bazillion hits, both articles and video, illustrating that KG most definitely was a very, very effective and prolific back-to-the-basket post-up player.  Arguably one of the best in the last couple of decades.  And that includes his time with the Celtics and with Rondo.

He had several signature post-up moves.  His favorite was to call for the ball on the left side of the paint, back his defender down while the rest of the Celtics cleared, then do his shake-and-bake turn-around shot from 4-6 feet to whichever side the poor victim didn't bite on.  Money.   Anybody who actually paid attention to the Celtics from 20017-2012 saw this move a million times.

He also loved to back his man in on the right side, step the the middle of the paint for a lean-away left-hand hook that was also money.

It is true that KG started to go to the post less in his last year and a half with the C's, but part of that was the need for his high percentage 16 footer to help create spacing due to blatant roster issues without a legit center to balance against KG and the 3PT shooters we brought in to replace Ray underperformed.   But that wasn't due to anything about Rondo.

Edit: Fix typos.

We definitely were watching different things then. KG would hardly ever go in the post and it became worse as he continued his tenure with us. His entire career his knock should be that he needed to be more in the post. I could make a highlight reel of Rondo shooting 3s and what does that really prove? Is he the second coming of Mark Price?

[D.o.s.]

Some actual numbers on KG:

http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/826-Kevin-Garnett/season/2010-2011-REG

[Eddie20]

Some actual numbers on KG:

http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/826-Kevin-Garnett/season/2010-2011-REG

Nice. I wish they had a shot chart of how many shots he took off post up attempts though. In order to filter the putbacks, lobs, and fastbreaks from the equation.