C's scrimmage notes

[Sketch5]

I don't think Zeller is all that different / superior as a defender or rebounder to Olynyk. Both are physically incapable of matching up against opposing centers due to lack of strength + length. Both players are physically and athletically overmatched on nightly basis as starting centers.

So he's a Center version of AB?

I don't know how much KO might improve but you are totally wrong about Zeller.  Sure, he's overmatched with the elite centers but he's perfectly capable of holding his own against the average NBA 5.  KO wasn't last season.  Zeller's PER vs. opposing center PER was a net positive last season and his per 36 stats were up significantly from his rookie year.

Zeller's problem is that he SUUUUUCKS at the power forward spot.  Not surprisingly, that's where Mike Brown had him spending a lot of time last season.

Mike

MB, thanks for the insight about zeller, pf, and cleveland. one questions comes to mind for me though. could you would you explain in more detail whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy zeller is so bad as pf? this is a real question and i would like to learn more. thanks.

Zeller's just a center.  He's not so huge he can overwhelm smaller PFs with size.  He doesn't have the quick reaction athleticism to defend smaller, more offensive minded PFs in open space.  Zeller's like the reverse of a combo guard who's too small to be a 2 but lacks the skills to consistently play point.  Zeller has the body and skills to play one position but doesn't stretch much beyond that.

Mike

[Kuberski33]

- when green went out, we had no go to scorer, became a jump shooting team on both ends.

I would argue that there's no 'go to' scorer even with Green out there, but this speaks to the key to this team getting out of Lottery-ville.  They need someone - anyone - who can still score when he's being guarded.  Green is not that guy.  Hoping one of Turner/Smart/Young can morph into that guy or we'll be among the top 6 lottery picks once again.  This team won't win again until it finds someone who can do that.

[Kane3387]

I don't think Zeller is all that different / superior as a defender or rebounder to Olynyk. Both are physically incapable of matching up against opposing centers due to lack of strength + length. Both players are physically and athletically overmatched on nightly basis as starting centers.

I don't know how much KO might improve but you are totally wrong about Zeller.  Sure, he's overmatched with the elite centers but he's perfectly capable of holding his own against the average NBA 5.  KO wasn't last season.  Zeller's PER vs. opposing center PER was a net positive last season and his per 36 stats were up significantly from his rookie year.

Zeller's problem is that he SUUUUUCKS at the power forward spot.  Not surprisingly, that's where Mike Brown had him spending a lot of time last season.

Mike

I hope you're right but Who is typically spot on with analysis. Very accurate and unbiased. I would keep my expectations in check in regards to TZ.

[LooseCannon]

People are forgetting that the most important stat from the scrimmage is:

Broken legs: 0

[Tr1boy]

Zeller is our tiago splitter/pj brown.  Mobile, high iq, hardworking with he ability to knock down jump shots.

Cant expect much more .

[Snakehead]

Zeller is our tiago splitter/pj brown.  Mobile, high iq, hardworking with he ability to knock down jump shots.

Cant expect much more .

This is what I'm expecting basically and I'm happy with him there.

I think we need scoring fore most, but a player like him will be handy.  Personally I hope we just start Sullinger and Olynyk and try to run and gun at a fast pace.  Zeller would be nice off the bench.

Olynyk is showing enough potential that I think we should try to encourage and enable him to shoot a lot and help us space the floor.  We need several players to step up their scoring.



On Young, I am pretty excited to see him hitting some shots.  If he can contribute this year, and shoot well from three, he would be a big addition and I'd be happy to see him contributing already.

[Yenohb]

Scrimmage FULL coverage..

http://redsarmy.com/2014/10/04/video-2014-celtics-open-practice/

[clover]

- when green went out, we had no go to scorer, became a jump shooting team on both ends.

I would argue that there's no 'go to' scorer even with Green out there, but this speaks to the key to this team getting out of Lottery-ville.  They need someone - anyone - who can still score when he's being guarded.  Green is not that guy.  Hoping one of Turner/Smart/Young can morph into that guy or we'll be among the top 6 lottery picks once again.  This team won't win again until it finds someone who can do that.

KO and the teenager (Young) would be my candidates for that by the year's end.

[SHAQATTACK]

Impressed with the scoring talent of James Young.  Hope he continues his up swing. 

It's about work for him now .....he has the gifts .

Well see.

[bleedGREENdon]

"Negatives

-sully looks like he gained weight and was walking up the court on multiple occasions "

- bass looks worse


yup, another reason why I wasn't happy about encouraging him to be 3 pt. shooter. 'toine 2.0, developing bad habits, our best rebounder is only going to walk from 3pt line to 3 pt. line.

and now Bass is following...

not liking it, not liking it at all.

When I saw all of the writes that Sullinger had a high scoring scrimmage, my first thought was "who was covering him".  It was probably Bass so I don't know if it is good that Sullinger played well or bad that Bass defended so poorly.  I have to say, I am afraid it is more the latter.

From watching the recap that someone posted earlier i'm pretty sure that the reason Sullinger scored is because he pulled up deep before the defense set up.

Yes and No, Sullinget played great offensively all together, he had a couple tough buckets down low, an and 1, a couple trailing threes and a three right in the face of A defender in which he was taller than(don't remember who it was).
Overall sully looked great offensively, just out of shape 

[bleedGREENdon]

- when green went out, we had no go to scorer, became a jump shooting team on both ends.

I would argue that there's no 'go to' scorer even with Green out there, but this speaks to the key to this team getting out of Lottery-ville.  They need someone - anyone - who can still score when he's being guarded.  Green is not that guy.  Hoping one of Turner/Smart/Young can morph into that guy or we'll be among the top 6 lottery picks once again.  This team won't win again until it finds someone who can do that.

There's a lot of hate on green on this forum, he showed in this scrimmage when he did play, albeit he didn't have much points , but green is going to be a go to scorer this year and put up great numbers.

He was double teamed all scrimmage, still brought it to the hoop a couple times, went up for rebounds and made a 3 in two peoples mouth. Kid looks a lot more aggressive and more confident. The fact that Stevens was having the defense double team him all game is a sign, he's been doing well during camp and that the coaching staff believes, opposing teams are going to double him a lot.
 
-JP

[bleedGREENdon]

Would be great if Sully and Kelly start together and kill it on offense (pray their defense has improved), all the pretty passing and shooting. I know people want it to be Zeller but I don't.

The more I think about it, the more I think Olynyk will beat out Zeller for starting center spot.

I don't think Zeller is all that different / superior as a defender or rebounder to Olynyk. Both are physically incapable of matching up against opposing centers due to lack of strength + length. Both players are physically and athletically overmatched on nightly basis as starting centers. Neither are adequate shot-blockers. Neither guy really known for their defense (man defense or team defense). Zeller has a bit more experience but talent wise I think they are working with similar tools (as they start NBA careers). And it's only a small gap experience wise (one year).

So I think Olynyk has a good chance at matching Tyler Zeller's contributions as a defender & rebounder. Offensively, however, Olynyk is a much more skilled player and I think the difference in that phase of the game will be larger than the differences defensively or as a rebounder.

Actually Zeller is far stronger and more athletic than Olynyk. Olynyk is far more skilled, though. They are really different, and I bet Zeller is a superior defender just for defensive mobility. Going up for blocks and having a crazy amount of length (though this is still obviously important) is meaning less and less in the modern day NBA. It's about being smart and having the quickness to challenge each and every shot possible by fronting your man or making their shot difficult. It's also about being able to make decisions quickly on where to be. Zeller is known for his rim running and above average athleticism for a 7 footer.

You could be right about Oly starting, and I think it could definitely happy with Smart possibly starting at PG until Rondo is back. I just really disagree that they are both on the same level in terms of defensive potential. The big thing is Zeller WANTS to defend the post. Half the battle when defending the paint is having the right mentality, imo. He's 270 with good quickness.

During the scrimmage, Olynyk looked stronger than zeller, not once was out athletisized ( you know what I mean).


After the scrimmage , I really want to see this starting 5. This starting 5 would probably win a majority of our first 10 games. Might shock a lot of people.

Smart
Bradley
Green
Sully
Kelly

Bench

Pressey
Young ( or Gerald Wallace, preferably young but Wallace is getting 10 mill  )
Turner
Bass
Zeller

[clover]

Would be great if Sully and Kelly start together and kill it on offense (pray their defense has improved), all the pretty passing and shooting. I know people want it to be Zeller but I don't.

The more I think about it, the more I think Olynyk will beat out Zeller for starting center spot.

I don't think Zeller is all that different / superior as a defender or rebounder to Olynyk. Both are physically incapable of matching up against opposing centers due to lack of strength + length. Both players are physically and athletically overmatched on nightly basis as starting centers. Neither are adequate shot-blockers. Neither guy really known for their defense (man defense or team defense). Zeller has a bit more experience but talent wise I think they are working with similar tools (as they start NBA careers). And it's only a small gap experience wise (one year).

So I think Olynyk has a good chance at matching Tyler Zeller's contributions as a defender & rebounder. Offensively, however, Olynyk is a much more skilled player and I think the difference in that phase of the game will be larger than the differences defensively or as a rebounder.

Actually Zeller is far stronger and more athletic than Olynyk. Olynyk is far more skilled, though. They are really different, and I bet Zeller is a superior defender just for defensive mobility. Going up for blocks and having a crazy amount of length (though this is still obviously important) is meaning less and less in the modern day NBA. It's about being smart and having the quickness to challenge each and every shot possible by fronting your man or making their shot difficult. It's also about being able to make decisions quickly on where to be. Zeller is known for his rim running and above average athleticism for a 7 footer.

You could be right about Oly starting, and I think it could definitely happy with Smart possibly starting at PG until Rondo is back. I just really disagree that they are both on the same level in terms of defensive potential. The big thing is Zeller WANTS to defend the post. Half the battle when defending the paint is having the right mentality, imo. He's 270 with good quickness.

During the scrimmage, Olynyk looked stronger than zeller, not once was out athletisized ( you know what I mean).


After the scrimmage , I really want to see this starting 5. This starting 5 would probably win a majority of our first 10 games. Might shock a lot of people.

Smart
Bradley
Green
Sully
Kelly

Bench

Pressey
Young ( or Gerald Wallace, preferably young but Wallace is getting 10 mill  )
Turner
Bass
Zeller

I like those lineups. (And I don't care what Wallace is getting.)

[Csfan1984]

Maybe playing Wallace a lot could be good. If he has a great start and season he is better trade asset. If he breaks down C's get insurance.

[Eddie20]

Would be great if Sully and Kelly start together and kill it on offense (pray their defense has improved), all the pretty passing and shooting. I know people want it to be Zeller but I don't.

The more I think about it, the more I think Olynyk will beat out Zeller for starting center spot.

I don't think Zeller is all that different / superior as a defender or rebounder to Olynyk. Both are physically incapable of matching up against opposing centers due to lack of strength + length. Both players are physically and athletically overmatched on nightly basis as starting centers. Neither are adequate shot-blockers. Neither guy really known for their defense (man defense or team defense). Zeller has a bit more experience but talent wise I think they are working with similar tools (as they start NBA careers). And it's only a small gap experience wise (one year).

So I think Olynyk has a good chance at matching Tyler Zeller's contributions as a defender & rebounder. Offensively, however, Olynyk is a much more skilled player and I think the difference in that phase of the game will be larger than the differences defensively or as a rebounder.

Actually Zeller is far stronger and more athletic than Olynyk. Olynyk is far more skilled, though. They are really different, and I bet Zeller is a superior defender just for defensive mobility. Going up for blocks and having a crazy amount of length (though this is still obviously important) is meaning less and less in the modern day NBA. It's about being smart and having the quickness to challenge each and every shot possible by fronting your man or making their shot difficult. It's also about being able to make decisions quickly on where to be. Zeller is known for his rim running and above average athleticism for a 7 footer.

You could be right about Oly starting, and I think it could definitely happy with Smart possibly starting at PG until Rondo is back. I just really disagree that they are both on the same level in terms of defensive potential. The big thing is Zeller WANTS to defend the post. Half the battle when defending the paint is having the right mentality, imo. He's 270 with good quickness.

During the scrimmage, Olynyk looked stronger than zeller, not once was out athletisized ( you know what I mean).


After the scrimmage , I really want to see this starting 5. This starting 5 would probably win a majority of our first 10 games. Might shock a lot of people.

Smart
Bradley
Green
Sully
Kelly

Bench

Pressey
Young ( or Gerald Wallace, preferably young but Wallace is getting 10 mill  )
Turner
Bass
Zeller

I like those lineups. (And I don't care what Wallace is getting.)

I think we'll go...

Smart
Bradley
Green
Sullinger
Zeller

Turner (backup 1)
Wallace
Olynyk (6th man)

Bass would be the 4th big, but I think we'll rotate between the 3 bigs. Young gets squeezed out of the rotation.