Author Topic: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up? (Locked)  (Read 34676 times)

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Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #105 on: August 09, 2014, 10:09:05 PM »

Offline Skywalker2.0

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no, the only two players I want on the Celtics from the OKC Thunder are Westbrook and Durant. There is no way in hell we can get Durant with Rondo and trade the entire team for. I do think Westbrook is a legit chance. Rondo, 2 1st rounders and fillers may be enough to grab Westbrook

What do you guys think of this trade:

C's trades: Rondo, Smart, Olynyk, Green
C's gets: Westbrook, S. Adams, J. Adams

Mem trades: Marc Gasol, Adams
Mem receives: Smart, Green, Olynyk

OKC trades: Westbrook, Adams
OKC gets: Rondo, Gasol

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2014, 11:34:29 PM »

Offline moiso

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no, the only two players I want on the Celtics from the OKC Thunder are Westbrook and Durant. There is no way in hell we can get Durant with Rondo and trade the entire team for. I do think Westbrook is a legit chance. Rondo, 2 1st rounders and fillers may be enough to grab Westbrook

What do you guys think of this trade:

C's trades: Rondo, Smart, Olynyk, Green
C's gets: Westbrook, S. Adams, J. Adams

Mem trades: Marc Gasol, Adams
Mem receives: Smart, Green, Olynyk

OKC trades: Westbrook, Adams
OKC gets: Rondo, Gasol
Pretty good proposal for all teams.  I still don't think OKC is anywhere close to blowing up the team though.  They need to change the coach and see how this team does before blowing anything up. 

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2014, 11:35:05 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #108 on: August 10, 2014, 09:16:31 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Did I see a lot of his full games? No. I never saw a full game Babe Ruth played in either, but I'm fairly confident that he hit a lot of home runs. Not seeing something yourself doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

How is this relevant?

This is probably the only Rondo trade I've ever been on board with in my history on Celticsblog.

Ibaka is not where I thought he'd be by now, but he's still the guy who had 3 10+ block games in 1 month.  I'm not even sure Russell ever did that.  He still has HOF potential.

 I'm fairly confident that Russell did that, probably on a regular basis.

How many other NBA players have done that?

How many full games of Russell's have you seen to make you so confident?

Don't get me wrong, I totally hope Russell did it too.  I'm not really going to go searching for the record but in Hakeem's entire 4.6 bpg season he had 4 10+ block games.  What, did Russell average 9 bpg per game in order to do this on a regular basis? (again, I hope so)

  Most of the estimates I've seen on Russell's blocks/game are around 7.

Most I've seen are 6 bpg, but fair enough.  I certainly didn't correlate that with 3 double-digit games in a month on a "regular basis."

The Hakeem example I gave was actually an outlier.  Eaton, Robinson, and Mutumbo all managed to average 4 and a half blocks while only having 1 double digit block night the entire season.  You do the math.

It's extremely possible for Russell to have averaged 7 bpg with 2 or 3 double digit block games per season.

It's totally possible he could have done it with zero 10 block games.

It's possible he had 10 of those games per season like some other poster who was too young to watch him randomly blurted out, which I showed was still not even close (~1.3 10+ games per month)

To do it in 5-6 months out of an 8 month season he would have likely needed over 20 10+ games per season.

Which would also mean Russell spent a solid chunk (another 4th?) of the season having bad nights. (are you seriously trying to make a convincing of an argument out of that Tim?)

That's why I was questioning your knowledge of Russell and how streaky his blocks were, since you said you were confident in your "regular basis" assertion.

  Yes, I suppose that it's possible that if he averaged 7 blocks a game he got between 6 and 8 every game, or maybe that he got exactly 7 blocks a game every single game and never got 10 even once. But even without watching much of Russell, I'd guess that most people who know much at all about any nba stat would be able to tell you how remote the possibilities of such tiny variations in the numbers you're talking about.

  If Russell averaged 7 blocks a game he'd need to exceed his average by just over 40% to get to 10. For the guys you mentioned, exceeding their averages by that amount would land them at roughly 6.4 blocks a game. All of them had at least 7 blocks in a game between 14 and 20 times in the seasons you're talking about. So they *averaged* hitting that number 3 or so times a month.
If you're taking the highest end of those estimates as fact.  And even then it's right on the edge of maybe it happened, maybe it didn't.  I've seen estimates as low as 3-4 bpg.  The bottom line is there's too many variables that you can't answer to be saying it happened with such certainty.

  I'm not taking the highest end of those estimates as a fact. I'm taking the middle of the estimates I've heard. Also, I said "I'm fairly confident". I don't think that really qualifies as "certainty". It's true there are variables, but there are also numbers to go by which you brought up, namely the frequency of high block games of the players you chose. You've said nothing to point to it being unlikely that a player averaging 7 (or so ) blocks a game would get 10 or more fairly regularly, and you didn't seem to interested in disagreeing with my estimates of his blocks/game until I pointed out how unlikely your claims were if you used that number.
Sure I did, I said the highest I remember seeing is 6.  Again, I've also seen 3s and 4s.  If 7 is your middle then I'd love to see which credible guys are saying 10.  Hakeem and Robinson were about as athletic as they come, I'm not sure a guy 4 inches shorter than them could average 3 times as many blocks.

  I don't think you've looked into the subject much if you've never seen estimates higher that 6 a game. Check the internet some time. Also, if you don't see how someone shorter than DR or Hakeem could get so many more blocks a game thlan they did, read up on how tall players were and how many shots people took back then.

  For an illustration, though, some of the articles about Russell (and Wilt) blocking shots talk about some sports writer watching the film from a nationally televised game that Wilt was in and counting 23 blocks from Wilt. Nobody's had more than 15 since 1986 and that's only happened 3 times, and there's no evidence that was even Wilt's highest game. Again, I don't put much stock in your "Russell might have averaged fewer blocks a game than the stars of the 90s" theory.

The numbers I brought up were to paint a picture of how tough it was for the league's best shot blockers to put up 1 double digit block game throughout an 82 game season, let alone one in every 4-5 games like you're guessing Russell did every year.

  No, obviously I never said he did it every month of every year.

Most of the time when people say they are confident in something it's because they have either data or observation to base it on.  Not because, "well, these projected numbers show it's possible."

  Most of the time when people ask you if you saw someone play it's because they did and disagree with your claim, not in the "I didn't either so there's a chance you might be wrong" sense. And the projected numbers show it's very likely, not "possible". Your theories, on the other hand ("he might have averaged 7 and hit 10 only once all year") seems fairly far-fetched, as does your "people who averaged significantly fewer blocks a game rarely had 10 in a game so he rarely had 10 in a game" projection.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #109 on: August 10, 2014, 09:27:21 AM »

Offline BballTim

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This is probably the only Rondo trade I've ever been on board with in my history on Celticsblog.

Ibaka is not where I thought he'd be by now, but he's still the guy who had 3 10+ block games in 1 month.  I'm not even sure Russell ever did that.  He still has HOF potential.
Most HOFers have made at least one whole all star game by the age of 24

I specifically implied he wasn't on track.

He might never be a first ballot, but he does have the potential to one day have a Rodman-type impact on defense, with less rebounding and much better scoring (Rodman wasn't even in the league by the age of 24 and played his first of only two "whole" ASGs at 28).

   Rodman dominated the league in rebounding for a number of years. And by dominate I mean he probably dominated the league in rebounding more than any player's dominated the league in any major statistical category in league history
Also, I've got to call hyperbole on that on last part.  He averaged 18.7 rpg in a season where the second leading rebounder had 15.5.  Wilt averaged 50 ppg when the next closest guy had 31.  He led the league in scoring for the first 7 seasons of his career, and has 5 of the top 7 scoring averages, including the top 3.

He also led the league in rebounding for 11 out of the 14 years he was in the league, and was 2nd the years he didn't.  Rodman led the league in rebounding 7 out of his 14 years and wasn't even close to the top the other years.

You could probably also argue he dominated FG% more than Rodman dominated rebounding in his career.  He led the league in 9 out of 14 years.  His 73% is almost 6% more than the next best Artis Gilmore's, and 18% higher than Kareem who had the second highest that year.  Basically, it's a sin to talk about dominating statistical categories without even mentioning Wilt.  Hell, he led the league in minutes/game 8 times.

  Rodman didn't do it for his entire career, but it's probably the main reason he got into the Hall. In any case, his rebounding rates from 93-95 were 26%, 32% and 49% higher than anyone else in the league. Show me instances of players leading other categories by margins that large for multiple seasons in a row, or even seasons where someone led a category by almost 50% over anyone else in the league.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #110 on: August 10, 2014, 11:56:46 AM »

Offline mgent

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Quote
Again, I don't put much stock in your "Russell might have averaged fewer blocks a game than the stars of the 90s" theory.

I never said that.  I actually said I thought he averaged twice as much as Hakeem and Robinson with 6 (due in part to skill, pace, and the league's average height which I knew about, thank you), but probably not three times as many.  I also said I saw estimates of him averaging as low as 3.  Not exactly confusing.

Quote
"he might have averaged 7 and hit 10 only once all year"

Never said that either.  Over the course of the conversation I said it was possible to average 7 bpg and only hit double digits 2 or 3 times, 0 times, 10 times, or 20 times (plenty of other possibilities).  You still haven't given an argument for why it's so likely that Russell did it ~20 times and so unlikely he did it 10 times, despite continuously saying you're right.

Quote
"people who averaged significantly fewer blocks a game rarely had 10 in a game so he rarely had 10 in a game"

For the third time, I never said that.  Does Celticsblog need footnotes?  First off, let me remind you I said you're just playing a guessing game about how significantly higher Russell's averages were and yet spouting them as fact.  As for the misquote, I said people who averaged 4.5 rarely had 1 game out of 82 so I thought it was unlikely Russell had ~20 games out of 82 every year.

Not sure if I should continue since you keep putting words in my mouth, which you seem to really enjoy when debating me.  That or you try arguing semantics, like the difference between "fairly certain" and "fairly confident."  But here goes.

The numbers I brought up were to paint a picture of how tough it was for the league's best shot blockers to put up 1 double digit block game throughout an 82 game season, let alone one in every 4-5 games like you're guessing Russell did every year.

  No, obviously I never said he did it every month of every year.

We already went over this (many replies ago).  It would take about 20 games in order to average 3 games per month on a regular basis.  You seemed to agree when you made your projections based on guys from the 90's, and again those numbers are right on the edge.  The probability wasn't "very likely," rather you proved it was possible like I've been saying all along.  The numbers weren't a home-run hit into the parking lot, all you did was hit the fence.  No matter how many times you say you're right and I'm wrong, it's not going to change that.  Use 6 bpg instead of 7 bpg and see what happens.  Or perhaps consider the low range of your unverifiable estimate (14 games) instead of the high end (20).

16-20 games = once every 4-5 games

Quote
  For an illustration, though, some of the articles about Russell (and Wilt) blocking shots talk about some sports writer watching the film from a nationally televised game that Wilt was in and counting 23 blocks from Wilt.
Sure, for all we know Russell had a game with 30 blocks, but that doesn't add any evidence to your case.  Occasional spurts are much more likely than repeatedly doing things on a regular basis.

Quote
  Most of the time when people ask you if you saw someone play it's because they did and disagree with your claim, not in the "I didn't either so there's a chance you might be wrong" sense.

Most of the time when people haven't seen someone play they do what I did and consider each possibility rather than deciding what happened, assuming they're right, and then telling people just how unlikely the "wrong" possibilities are.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 12:03:04 PM by mgent »
Philly:

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David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #111 on: August 10, 2014, 12:55:09 PM »

Offline mgent

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This is probably the only Rondo trade I've ever been on board with in my history on Celticsblog.

Ibaka is not where I thought he'd be by now, but he's still the guy who had 3 10+ block games in 1 month.  I'm not even sure Russell ever did that.  He still has HOF potential.
Most HOFers have made at least one whole all star game by the age of 24

I specifically implied he wasn't on track.

He might never be a first ballot, but he does have the potential to one day have a Rodman-type impact on defense, with less rebounding and much better scoring (Rodman wasn't even in the league by the age of 24 and played his first of only two "whole" ASGs at 28).

   Rodman dominated the league in rebounding for a number of years. And by dominate I mean he probably dominated the league in rebounding more than any player's dominated the league in any major statistical category in league history
Also, I've got to call hyperbole on that on last part.  He averaged 18.7 rpg in a season where the second leading rebounder had 15.5.  Wilt averaged 50 ppg when the next closest guy had 31.  He led the league in scoring for the first 7 seasons of his career, and has 5 of the top 7 scoring averages, including the top 3.

He also led the league in rebounding for 11 out of the 14 years he was in the league, and was 2nd the years he didn't.  Rodman led the league in rebounding 7 out of his 14 years and wasn't even close to the top the other years.

You could probably also argue he dominated FG% more than Rodman dominated rebounding in his career.  He led the league in 9 out of 14 years.  His 73% is almost 6% more than the next best Artis Gilmore's, and 18% higher than Kareem who had the second highest that year.  Basically, it's a sin to talk about dominating statistical categories without even mentioning Wilt.  Hell, he led the league in minutes/game 8 times.

  Rodman didn't do it for his entire career, but it's probably the main reason he got into the Hall. In any case, his rebounding rates from 93-95 were 26%, 32% and 49% higher than anyone else in the league. Show me instances of players leading other categories by margins that large for multiple seasons in a row, or even seasons where someone led a category by almost 50% over anyone else in the league.
How about right there, Wilt Chamberlain, 61.5%?  Wilt had 4029 points to Walt's 2495.  The year after that he led by 32%.  I'd love it if you read some of my posts.  Rodman might have led by 25-30% (nice try slipping in his outlier year where he missed a bunch of games) but Wilt was literally twice as dominant.

Also how does Rodman's TRB% stack up against other players all time? (don't worry we can leave out Wilt and Russell's projected numbers which probably dwarf Rodman)  It's no where near as untouchable as Wilt's FG%.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #112 on: August 10, 2014, 04:19:50 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Quote
Again, I don't put much stock in your "Russell might have averaged fewer blocks a game than the stars of the 90s" theory.

I never said that.  I actually said I thought he averaged twice as much as Hakeem and Robinson with 6 (due in part to skill, pace, and the league's average height which I knew about, thank you), but probably not three times as many.  I also said I saw estimates of him averaging as low as 3.  Not exactly confusing.

  So you're attacking me for mentioning that I've seen estimates as high as 10 a game for his blocks and talking about the credibility of such claims, now you're saying you've been bringing up estimates that you don't believe at all? Par for the course I suppose.

Quote
"he might have averaged 7 and hit 10 only once all year"

Never said that either.  Over the course of the conversation I said it was possible to average 7 bpg and only hit double digits 2 or 3 times, 0 times, 10 times, or 20 times (plenty of other possibilities).  You still haven't given an argument for why it's so likely that Russell did it ~20 times and so unlikely he did it 10 times, despite continuously saying you're right.

  Ok, so you made the even more ridiculous claim that he might have averaged 7 blocks a game without getting 10 blocks in a game even once.  What I claimed was that he probably get 10+ blocks in a month fairly regularly, which could be once or twice a year on average.

Quote
"people who averaged significantly fewer blocks a game rarely had 10 in a game so he rarely had 10 in a game"

For the third time, I never said that.  Does Celticsblog need footnotes?  First off, let me remind you I said you're just playing a guessing game about how significantly higher Russell's averages were and yet spouting them as fact.  As for the misquote, I said people who averaged 4.5 rarely had 1 game out of 82 so I thought it was unlikely Russell had ~20 games out of 82 every year.

Not sure if I should continue since you keep putting words in my mouth, which you seem to really enjoy when debating me.  That or you try arguing semantics, like the difference between "fairly certain" and "fairly confident."  But here goes.

  If you're worried about putting words in people's mouth, start with your trying to argue against the ~20 games every year claim that nobody's made. And I'm not sure how familiar you are with scaling numbers, but 10 is more than twice 4.5. So that's a good argument for claiming that Russell rarely had 13-15 block games, not that he rarely had 10 block games (which would be like someone who got 4.5 blocks a game getting 7 or so).

  As for the "misquote", you weren't saying "people who averaged 4.5 rarely had 1 game out of 82 so I thought it was unlikely Russell had ~20 games out of 82 every year" because nobody had claimed that Russell did that ~20 times every year. In effect, you're misquoting yourself. I guess your defense might be your not understanding the difference between "on a fairly regular basis" and "every time".

The numbers I brought up were to paint a picture of how tough it was for the league's best shot blockers to put up 1 double digit block game throughout an 82 game season, let alone one in every 4-5 games like you're guessing Russell did every year.

  No, obviously I never said he did it every month of every year.

We already went over this (many replies ago).  It would take about 20 games in order to average 3 games per month on a regular basis.  You seemed to agree when you made your projections based on guys from the 90's, and again those numbers are right on the edge.  The probability wasn't "very likely," rather you proved it was possible like I've been saying all along.  The numbers weren't a home-run hit into the parking lot, all you did was hit the fence.  No matter how many times you say you're right and I'm wrong, it's not going to change that.  Use 6 bpg instead of 7 bpg and see what happens.  Or perhaps consider the low range of your unverifiable estimate (14 games) instead of the high end (20).

16-20 games = once every 4-5 games

  It's time to add a little reality to this. We're not in a discussion where I claimed Russell got 10+ blocks every month of his career and you claimed he didn't. We're in a discussion where you said he might not have had 3 games where he blocked at least 10 shots in the same month a single time in his career and I said it's pretty unlikely.

  Imagine if the discussion had started with you saying you watched a game where Ibaka scored 20 points, and you didn't think Jeff Green did that even once all year. I'd say that he did on a fairly regular basis, and you later claimed that you'd been arguing all along that Green didn't get 20+ points every single game. That's what you're trying to do here. If Russell gets 10+ blocks 3 times in a month once or twice a year that's doing it on a fairly regular basis. The same way Jeff Green scored 20+ points on a fairly regular basis, or the same way the average basball player gets a hit on a fairly regular basis. It doesn't mean "every time".

Quote
  For an illustration, though, some of the articles about Russell (and Wilt) blocking shots talk about some sports writer watching the film from a nationally televised game that Wilt was in and counting 23 blocks from Wilt.
Sure, for all we know Russell had a game with 30 blocks, but that doesn't add any evidence to your case.  Occasional spurts are much more likely than repeatedly doing things on a regular basis.

Quote
  Most of the time when people ask you if you saw someone play it's because they did and disagree with your claim, not in the "I didn't either so there's a chance you might be wrong" sense.

Most of the time when people haven't seen someone play they do what I did and consider each possibility rather than deciding what happened, assuming they're right, and then telling people just how unlikely the "wrong" possibilities are.

  which is clearly what I did and obviously what you didn't do. I went so far as to examine how often other players who blocked lots of shots had games that were similarly above their averages. You, on the other hand, were trying to claim that it must be rare for Russell to get 10 blocks in a game because it was a rare occurrence for players who averaged about 30% fewer blocks a game than he did. It's like trying to decide how often MJ scored 40 in a game by looking at how often players who averaged 10 ppg less than him did it. It makes no sense.


Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #113 on: August 10, 2014, 05:34:55 PM »

Offline mgent

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Uh, you said that.  Remember, you implied 14-20 times is what it takes to give you 3 times in 1 month on a regular basis, because that's how often you think Russell did it if he had 7 bpg.  THINK.  Which is really "guess."  IF.  Which means it's not certain.  I think it's incredibly lame to be arguing to death about guesses and estimates.

If he did it 20 times per season, he'd average around 2 and a half 10+ block games per month, which makes 3 10+ block games on a regular basis extremely plausible, just like it would be extremely likely if he did in fact average 8-10 bpg.  At 7 bpg it's probably closer to 50-50, and at 6 bpg it starts to become unlikely.  Sorry, I didn't know you were arguing for days over the ~20 games thing that I cleared up in one of the first posts (and that you also used to make your guys from the 90's projection-argument, but are now disagreeing with).

Quote
  Ok, so you made the even more ridiculous claim that he might have averaged 7 blocks a game without getting 10 blocks in a game even once.
Wake up, I definitely never claimed that's what happened.  All I said was it's mathematically possible.  To do the complex math and calculate the odds on this you need to calculate ALL the possibilities, not just the most likely ones.  That would completely destroy the point of probability.

Look up the word "claim."  I haven't made any claims or assertions that anything happened, that's all been you.  All I've been doing is pointing out possibilities that you've ignored and assumed didn't happen.  I've said over and over again it either could have, or could not have happened, and you keep saying over and over again that you're right and it probably did happen.

And again (for the last time) I never argued it would be rare for Russell to have 1 10 block game because it was rare for guys with 30% less blocks, I said it's unlikely Russell had 20 10 block games because guys with [allegedly] 30% less blocks than him were only doing it once.

By the way, what was so wrong about me relaying to you an estimate that I've seen?  I'm not "believing" any estimates, nor am I putting "confidence" into any them, I'm simply guessing 6 based on what I've seen and what sounded reasonable/credible.  I only believe or put confidence in things I've seen with my own eyes, which again brings us back full circle to which of us saw Russell play?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 05:44:48 PM by mgent »
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #114 on: August 10, 2014, 05:51:33 PM »

Offline AngryAndIrritable

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Any chance that admins can start flagging threads whenever they reach this level of argumentative fallacy?

To return to the original point, there would have to be far more going on than a straightforward Rondo/ Ibaka swap to make this palatable to Celtics fans. I think Ibaka is talented but would be found out on a less talented team than the Thunder.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #115 on: August 10, 2014, 06:01:34 PM »

Offline mgent

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Any chance that admins can start flagging threads whenever they reach this level of argumentative fallacy?

To return to the original point, there would have to be far more going on than a straightforward Rondo/ Ibaka swap to make this palatable to Celtics fans. I think Ibaka is talented but would be found out on a less talented team than the Thunder.
Nope, unfortunately the thread will just get locked and the fun will come to an end.  It's sort of unreasonable to ask posters to start a new thread for a spur of the moment debate like the site rules say, just like it's unreasonable to expect mods to waste their time digging up the scattered posts and splitting the thread every time a topic shifts.  If you begin reading a post and you realize the topic doesn't interest you, simply stop reading.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #116 on: August 10, 2014, 06:18:36 PM »

Offline BballTim

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This is probably the only Rondo trade I've ever been on board with in my history on Celticsblog.

Ibaka is not where I thought he'd be by now, but he's still the guy who had 3 10+ block games in 1 month.  I'm not even sure Russell ever did that.  He still has HOF potential.
Most HOFers have made at least one whole all star game by the age of 24

I specifically implied he wasn't on track.

He might never be a first ballot, but he does have the potential to one day have a Rodman-type impact on defense, with less rebounding and much better scoring (Rodman wasn't even in the league by the age of 24 and played his first of only two "whole" ASGs at 28).

   Rodman dominated the league in rebounding for a number of years. And by dominate I mean he probably dominated the league in rebounding more than any player's dominated the league in any major statistical category in league history
Also, I've got to call hyperbole on that on last part.  He averaged 18.7 rpg in a season where the second leading rebounder had 15.5.  Wilt averaged 50 ppg when the next closest guy had 31.  He led the league in scoring for the first 7 seasons of his career, and has 5 of the top 7 scoring averages, including the top 3.

He also led the league in rebounding for 11 out of the 14 years he was in the league, and was 2nd the years he didn't.  Rodman led the league in rebounding 7 out of his 14 years and wasn't even close to the top the other years.

You could probably also argue he dominated FG% more than Rodman dominated rebounding in his career.  He led the league in 9 out of 14 years.  His 73% is almost 6% more than the next best Artis Gilmore's, and 18% higher than Kareem who had the second highest that year.  Basically, it's a sin to talk about dominating statistical categories without even mentioning Wilt.  Hell, he led the league in minutes/game 8 times.

  Rodman didn't do it for his entire career, but it's probably the main reason he got into the Hall. In any case, his rebounding rates from 93-95 were 26%, 32% and 49% higher than anyone else in the league. Show me instances of players leading other categories by margins that large for multiple seasons in a row, or even seasons where someone led a category by almost 50% over anyone else in the league.
How about right there, Wilt Chamberlain, 61.5%?  Wilt had 4029 points to Walt's 2495.  The year after that he led by 32%.  I'd love it if you read some of my posts.  Rodman might have led by 25-30% (nice try slipping in his outlier year where he missed a bunch of games) but Wilt was literally twice as dominant.

  Rodman played over 1500 minutes in his "outlier" year, nice try at ignoring data that doesn't fit your argument.

Also how does Rodman's TRB% stack up against other players all time?  It's no where near as untouchable as Wilt's FG%.

   Rodman has 7 of the 8 highest TRB% seasons since they started keeping track of the stat. Not only that, but his best season was 11% better than anyone else has ever done, compared to Wilt's fg% being 7% higher than anyone else. So the situation's basically the opposite of what you're claiming.

  I wonder if you'll follow this up with another lecture about how thoroughly you analyze things when you're discussing players you haven't seen.

(don't worry we can leave out Wilt and Russell's projected numbers which probably dwarf Rodman)

  Let's examine that. In Wilt's best season he pulled down 27.2 rpg. When Rodman had his highest TRB% he averaged 16.8 rebounds a game. But Wilt played 47.8 minutes a game compared to 32 mpg for Rodman. Adjust Rodman's minutes to 47.8 and he'd have averaged 25 rebounds a game. Still behind Wilt, as I'm sure you noticed. But then consider that there were about 103 rebounds in the average Spurs game that year while there were about 145 rebounds a game during Wilt's season. Adjust Rodman's numbers for that and you'd get about 32 rpg compared to Wilt's 27. Do the math. Then tell me again how Wilt's numbers would "dwarf" Rodman's.

  I'd hope your knowledge of Russell's blocks is at least as spot on as your knowledge about Rodman's rebounding.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #117 on: August 10, 2014, 06:25:04 PM »

Offline AngryAndIrritable

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Any chance that admins can start flagging threads whenever they reach this level of argumentative fallacy?

To return to the original point, there would have to be far more going on than a straightforward Rondo/ Ibaka swap to make this palatable to Celtics fans. I think Ibaka is talented but would be found out on a less talented team than the Thunder.
Nope, unfortunately the thread will just get locked and the fun will come to an end.  It's sort of unreasonable to ask posters to start a new thread for a spur of the moment debate like the site rules say, just like it's unreasonable to expect mods to waste their time digging up the scattered posts and splitting the thread every time a topic shifts.  If you begin reading a post and you realize the topic doesn't interest you, simply stop reading.

If I begin reading a post about a Rondo/Ibaka swap and I want to discuss this very subject and it's turned into a battle of semantics over Bill Russell's supposed blocks statistics then it's a bit unfair to expect everyone to wade back to the point where it was actually on topic?

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #118 on: August 10, 2014, 06:26:41 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Getting back to the original topic at hand...

It depends... If we're going for a defensive route with Smart, Bradley, Green, Ibaka, Bass/Zeller. That is a pretty good defensive team without any scorers. Smart isn't a great play maker, which is why if we could somehow pry Ibaka, I would love to have Rondo on the same team as Ibaka, due to the pick and pop type of game that Rondo had with KG.

Other than that, Ibaka is only worth more due to his age/contract, and because hes a big men. I wouldn't trade Rondo straight up if we were close to being able to bring in another Allstar or Superstar.
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Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #119 on: August 10, 2014, 06:42:25 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Uh, you said that.  Remember, you implied 14-20 times is what it takes to give you 3 times in 1 month on a regular basis, because that's how often you think Russell did it if he had 7 bpg.  THINK.  Which is really "guess."  IF.  Which means it's not certain.  I think it's incredibly lame to be arguing to death about guesses and estimates.

  No, what I said was the players you listed had 14-20 games a year that were far enough above their average that a similar game from Russell would give him 10+ blocks. Based on that it's reasonable to assume that Russell would  have 3 10+ block games in the same month on a fairly regular basis. You haven't offered anything of note to dispute any of that, other than your attempts to claim that "fairly regularly" means "all the time" or "almost all the time".

Quote
  Ok, so you made the even more ridiculous claim that he might have averaged 7 blocks a game without getting 10 blocks in a game even once.
Wake up, I definitely never claimed that's what happened.  All I said was it's mathematically possible.  To do the complex math and calculate the odds on this you need to calculate ALL the possibilities, not just the most likely ones.  That would completely destroy the point of probability.

Look up the word "claim."  I haven't made any claims or assertions that anything happened, that's all been you.  All I've been doing is pointing out possibilities that you've ignored and assumed didn't happen.  I've said over and over again it either could have, or could not have happened, and you keep saying over and over again that you're right and it probably did happen.

It's extremely possible for Russell to have averaged 7 bpg with 2 or 3 double digit block games per season.

It's totally possible he could have done it with zero 10 block games.

  Explain how that's markedly different from " he might have averaged 7 blocks a game without getting 10 blocks in a game even once".

And again (for the last time) I never argued it would be rare for Russell to have 1 10 block game because it was rare for guys with 30% less blocks, I said it's unlikely Russell had 20 10 block games because guys with [allegedly] 30% less blocks than him were only doing it once.

  Once again, nobody ever claimed 20 10 block games.

By the way, what was so wrong about me relaying to you an estimate that I've seen?  I'm not "believing" any estimates, nor am I putting "confidence" into any them, I'm simply guessing 6 based on what I've seen and what sounded reasonable/credible.

   Nothing's wrong with that. Until you start complaining because I relayed an estimate that I've seen (10 bpg). Then it's worth pointing out you're doing the exact thing you're criticizing me for doing.