Author Topic: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up? (Locked)  (Read 34716 times)

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Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #90 on: August 09, 2014, 03:24:32 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Didn't realize Ibaka is a franchise player.  ::)

  Many players on other teams are, and putting them in a trade proposal for Rondo greatly increases their value.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #91 on: August 09, 2014, 03:33:31 PM »

Offline BballTim

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This is probably the only Rondo trade I've ever been on board with in my history on Celticsblog.

Ibaka is not where I thought he'd be by now, but he's still the guy who had 3 10+ block games in 1 month.  I'm not even sure Russell ever did that.  He still has HOF potential.
Most HOFers have made at least one whole all star game by the age of 24

I specifically implied he wasn't on track.

He might never be a first ballot, but he does have the potential to one day have a Rodman-type impact on defense, with less rebounding and much better scoring (Rodman wasn't even in the league by the age of 24 and played his first of only two "whole" ASGs at 28).

   Rodman dominated the league in rebounding for a number of years. And by dominate I mean he probably dominated the league in rebounding more than any player's dominated the league in any major statistical category in league history

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #92 on: August 09, 2014, 04:13:42 PM »

Offline Eja117

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As much as Ibaka is a great pf in the league he's like maybe 12th best. Rondo is like top 8 at pg. Ibaka may be the better asset in the trade, but it's because of his age and money, not because he is more valuable to his team.

No way, man. Name them.

Duncan
Anthony Davis
Zach Randolph
B Griffin
Alridge
Dirk
Love
Bosh
D Lee
P Gasol
P Millsap
A Drummond

Then you gotta factor in various guys that are maybe within his range that could be better than him on any given night and/or guys that are quasi centers like Al Jefferson, Boozer, Taj Gibson, K Faried, Nene, and Al Horford.

Serge is good. But he's not an all star for a reason.

Drummond is a center and you're really reaching on Lee, Gasol, Randolph, and Millsap. I wouldn't put Bosh ahead of him either. He also hasn't made an all-star team because unfortunately for him he plays in a conference that has Duncan, Dirk, Blake, Love, Davis, and Aldridge at the same positions. Put in the east and he's a yearly all-star.
Ok. If Drum is a center then Monroe is better than him at pf. Or possibly Josh Smith

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #93 on: August 09, 2014, 04:15:37 PM »

Offline mgent

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Did I see a lot of his full games? No. I never saw a full game Babe Ruth played in either, but I'm fairly confident that he hit a lot of home runs. Not seeing something yourself doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

How is this relevant?

This is probably the only Rondo trade I've ever been on board with in my history on Celticsblog.

Ibaka is not where I thought he'd be by now, but he's still the guy who had 3 10+ block games in 1 month.  I'm not even sure Russell ever did that.  He still has HOF potential.

 I'm fairly confident that Russell did that, probably on a regular basis.

How many other NBA players have done that?

How many full games of Russell's have you seen to make you so confident?

Don't get me wrong, I totally hope Russell did it too.  I'm not really going to go searching for the record but in Hakeem's entire 4.6 bpg season he had 4 10+ block games.  What, did Russell average 9 bpg per game in order to do this on a regular basis? (again, I hope so)

  Most of the estimates I've seen on Russell's blocks/game are around 7.

Most I've seen are 6 bpg, but fair enough.  I certainly didn't correlate that with 3 double-digit games in a month on a "regular basis."

The Hakeem example I gave was actually an outlier.  Eaton, Robinson, and Mutumbo all managed to average 4 and a half blocks while only having 1 double digit block night the entire season.  You do the math.

It's extremely possible for Russell to have averaged 7 bpg with 2 or 3 double digit block games per season.

It's totally possible he could have done it with zero 10 block games.

It's possible he had 10 of those games per season like some other poster who was too young to watch him randomly blurted out, which I showed was still not even close (~1.3 10+ games per month)

To do it in 5-6 months out of an 8 month season he would have likely needed over 20 10+ games per season.

Which would also mean Russell spent a solid chunk (another 4th?) of the season having bad nights. (are you seriously trying to make a convincing of an argument out of that Tim?)

That's why I was questioning your knowledge of Russell and how streaky his blocks were, since you said you were confident in your "regular basis" assertion.

  Yes, I suppose that it's possible that if he averaged 7 blocks a game he got between 6 and 8 every game, or maybe that he got exactly 7 blocks a game every single game and never got 10 even once. But even without watching much of Russell, I'd guess that most people who know much at all about any nba stat would be able to tell you how remote the possibilities of such tiny variations in the numbers you're talking about.

  If Russell averaged 7 blocks a game he'd need to exceed his average by just over 40% to get to 10. For the guys you mentioned, exceeding their averages by that amount would land them at roughly 6.4 blocks a game. All of them had at least 7 blocks in a game between 14 and 20 times in the seasons you're talking about. So they *averaged* hitting that number 3 or so times a month.
If you're taking the highest end of those estimates as fact.  And even then it's right on the edge of maybe it happened, maybe it didn't.  I've seen estimates as low as 3-4 bpg.  The bottom line is there's too many variables that you can't answer to be saying it happened with such certainty.
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David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #94 on: August 09, 2014, 04:19:14 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I find it amazing people are saying things like "You're not counting Ibaka's defense." "Ibaka is a two way player"

Who is the better defender? Yeah. That's Rondo.

Better player and better defender.

On a scale from one to ten Rondo is a 9.2, and Ibaka is an 8.7.  Rondo is a solid notch better. Solid.

4 time all star vs 0 time all star.  Don't give me this bull about the West vs East. Last time I looked the East won several of the last rings.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #95 on: August 09, 2014, 04:21:52 PM »

Offline Eja117

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So just to get this on record.

Who is the better player?

Who is the better defender?

Who is more likely to lead you to a win tomorrow?

If you are trying to win a championship in the next 3 years who do you start your team with?

Ibaka can rebound? Really? That's great. Guess who else can rebound. That guy that gets triple doubles.

Have you ever heard a star say they'd really like to play with Ibaka? They really want their team to make a trade for Ibaka.

Rondo is and will remain for at least a couple more years the better player.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #96 on: August 09, 2014, 04:54:45 PM »

Online slamtheking

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I 'get' that the idea here is to trade from a position of perceived surplus (point guard, because we just drafted Smart, so in some folks' eyes that makes Rondo "expendable").

But why are you doing so to add to another position of perceived surplus (Power Forward)?

'Not crazy about this deal as proposed.

And given that OKC seems committed to Westbrook as PG (and he's a poor 3PT shooter who would not be a great space maker next to Rondo), I doubt they would be crazy about it either.   


this.

in a vacuum, I might pull the trigger.  based on current rosters of Boston and OKC, I'm not seeing either team thinking this is a good idea

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #97 on: August 09, 2014, 05:12:51 PM »

Offline TheFlex

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Wow! You have the Celtics giving up way too much for Ibaka and Perkins. I wouldn't trade Rondo straight up for those two. Danny wouldn't either. No way.

I've proposed a number of different Rondo-for-Serge trades in this thread. I'll lay them all out:

BOS trades: Rajon Rondo
OKC trades: Serge Ibaka


http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=k58we9s

BOS trades: Rajon Rondo, 2015 LAC 1st rounder
OKC trades: Serge Ibaka


financial representation of this deal found in link above

BOS trades: Rajon Rondo, 2016 BKN 1st rounder
OKC: Serge Ibaka


financial representation of this deal found in link above

jdub1660 proposal:

BOS trades: Rondo, Bass, future 1st (I had suggested the 2016 BKN 1st if we're also getting Lamb)
OKC trades: Ibaka, Jeremy Lamb, Hasheem Thabeet


http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=m5k47np

BOS trades: Rondo, Keith Bogans, Kelly Olynyk, Chris Babb, 2015 LAC 1st rounder
OKC trades: Ibaka, Perkins


http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=qyjdlxq

Which one do you like best, if you like any at all? What if they added Lamb to the trade above (which works financially)? What if we kept the Clippers pick? What if they added Lamb and we kept the pick? Also, to clarify, the Cs would be taking Perk to benefit OKC... he's got a decent sized contract and they could use the space to make a Caron Butler-esque signing midseason again.

I find it amazing people are saying things like "You're not counting Ibaka's defense." "Ibaka is a two way player"

Who is the better defender? Yeah. That's Rondo.

Better player and better defender.

On a scale from one to ten Rondo is a 9.2, and Ibaka is an 8.7.  Rondo is a solid notch better. Solid.

4 time all star vs 0 time all star.  Don't give me this bull about the West vs East. Last time I looked the East won several of the last rings.

Do you have any statistical proof to back your claims up? Here's a number for you: Rondo hasn't had 4+ defensive win shares in a single season since 2010-11. Ibaka has had 4+ DWS in each of the past two seasons. Here's another: Of 30+ mpg players who were healthy for at least 60 games and who defended at least 5 shots "at rim" per game, Ibaka ranked second behind only Robin Lopez in opponents' FG% per game. Of those players, he also ranked 1st in total blocked shots.


Draft: 8 first rounders in next 5 years.

Cap space: $24 mil.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dkcleague/

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #98 on: August 09, 2014, 05:22:24 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Did I see a lot of his full games? No. I never saw a full game Babe Ruth played in either, but I'm fairly confident that he hit a lot of home runs. Not seeing something yourself doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

How is this relevant?

This is probably the only Rondo trade I've ever been on board with in my history on Celticsblog.

Ibaka is not where I thought he'd be by now, but he's still the guy who had 3 10+ block games in 1 month.  I'm not even sure Russell ever did that.  He still has HOF potential.

 I'm fairly confident that Russell did that, probably on a regular basis.

How many other NBA players have done that?

How many full games of Russell's have you seen to make you so confident?

Don't get me wrong, I totally hope Russell did it too.  I'm not really going to go searching for the record but in Hakeem's entire 4.6 bpg season he had 4 10+ block games.  What, did Russell average 9 bpg per game in order to do this on a regular basis? (again, I hope so)

  Most of the estimates I've seen on Russell's blocks/game are around 7.

Most I've seen are 6 bpg, but fair enough.  I certainly didn't correlate that with 3 double-digit games in a month on a "regular basis."

The Hakeem example I gave was actually an outlier.  Eaton, Robinson, and Mutumbo all managed to average 4 and a half blocks while only having 1 double digit block night the entire season.  You do the math.

It's extremely possible for Russell to have averaged 7 bpg with 2 or 3 double digit block games per season.

It's totally possible he could have done it with zero 10 block games.

It's possible he had 10 of those games per season like some other poster who was too young to watch him randomly blurted out, which I showed was still not even close (~1.3 10+ games per month)

To do it in 5-6 months out of an 8 month season he would have likely needed over 20 10+ games per season.

Which would also mean Russell spent a solid chunk (another 4th?) of the season having bad nights. (are you seriously trying to make a convincing of an argument out of that Tim?)

That's why I was questioning your knowledge of Russell and how streaky his blocks were, since you said you were confident in your "regular basis" assertion.

  Yes, I suppose that it's possible that if he averaged 7 blocks a game he got between 6 and 8 every game, or maybe that he got exactly 7 blocks a game every single game and never got 10 even once. But even without watching much of Russell, I'd guess that most people who know much at all about any nba stat would be able to tell you how remote the possibilities of such tiny variations in the numbers you're talking about.

  If Russell averaged 7 blocks a game he'd need to exceed his average by just over 40% to get to 10. For the guys you mentioned, exceeding their averages by that amount would land them at roughly 6.4 blocks a game. All of them had at least 7 blocks in a game between 14 and 20 times in the seasons you're talking about. So they *averaged* hitting that number 3 or so times a month.
If you're taking the highest end of those estimates as fact.  And even then it's right on the edge of maybe it happened, maybe it didn't.  I've seen estimates as low as 3-4 bpg.  The bottom line is there's too many variables that you can't answer to be saying it happened with such certainty.

  I'm not taking the highest end of those estimates as a fact. I'm taking the middle of the estimates I've heard. Also, I said "I'm fairly confident". I don't think that really qualifies as "certainty". It's true there are variables, but there are also numbers to go by which you brought up, namely the frequency of high block games of the players you chose. You've said nothing to point to it being unlikely that a player averaging 7 (or so ) blocks a game would get 10 or more fairly regularly, and you didn't seem to interested in disagreeing with my estimates of his blocks/game until I pointed out how unlikely your claims were if you used that number.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #99 on: August 09, 2014, 06:05:38 PM »

Offline mgent

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Did I see a lot of his full games? No. I never saw a full game Babe Ruth played in either, but I'm fairly confident that he hit a lot of home runs. Not seeing something yourself doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

How is this relevant?

This is probably the only Rondo trade I've ever been on board with in my history on Celticsblog.

Ibaka is not where I thought he'd be by now, but he's still the guy who had 3 10+ block games in 1 month.  I'm not even sure Russell ever did that.  He still has HOF potential.

 I'm fairly confident that Russell did that, probably on a regular basis.

How many other NBA players have done that?

How many full games of Russell's have you seen to make you so confident?

Don't get me wrong, I totally hope Russell did it too.  I'm not really going to go searching for the record but in Hakeem's entire 4.6 bpg season he had 4 10+ block games.  What, did Russell average 9 bpg per game in order to do this on a regular basis? (again, I hope so)

  Most of the estimates I've seen on Russell's blocks/game are around 7.

Most I've seen are 6 bpg, but fair enough.  I certainly didn't correlate that with 3 double-digit games in a month on a "regular basis."

The Hakeem example I gave was actually an outlier.  Eaton, Robinson, and Mutumbo all managed to average 4 and a half blocks while only having 1 double digit block night the entire season.  You do the math.

It's extremely possible for Russell to have averaged 7 bpg with 2 or 3 double digit block games per season.

It's totally possible he could have done it with zero 10 block games.

It's possible he had 10 of those games per season like some other poster who was too young to watch him randomly blurted out, which I showed was still not even close (~1.3 10+ games per month)

To do it in 5-6 months out of an 8 month season he would have likely needed over 20 10+ games per season.

Which would also mean Russell spent a solid chunk (another 4th?) of the season having bad nights. (are you seriously trying to make a convincing of an argument out of that Tim?)

That's why I was questioning your knowledge of Russell and how streaky his blocks were, since you said you were confident in your "regular basis" assertion.

  Yes, I suppose that it's possible that if he averaged 7 blocks a game he got between 6 and 8 every game, or maybe that he got exactly 7 blocks a game every single game and never got 10 even once. But even without watching much of Russell, I'd guess that most people who know much at all about any nba stat would be able to tell you how remote the possibilities of such tiny variations in the numbers you're talking about.

  If Russell averaged 7 blocks a game he'd need to exceed his average by just over 40% to get to 10. For the guys you mentioned, exceeding their averages by that amount would land them at roughly 6.4 blocks a game. All of them had at least 7 blocks in a game between 14 and 20 times in the seasons you're talking about. So they *averaged* hitting that number 3 or so times a month.
If you're taking the highest end of those estimates as fact.  And even then it's right on the edge of maybe it happened, maybe it didn't.  I've seen estimates as low as 3-4 bpg.  The bottom line is there's too many variables that you can't answer to be saying it happened with such certainty.

  I'm not taking the highest end of those estimates as a fact. I'm taking the middle of the estimates I've heard. Also, I said "I'm fairly confident". I don't think that really qualifies as "certainty". It's true there are variables, but there are also numbers to go by which you brought up, namely the frequency of high block games of the players you chose. You've said nothing to point to it being unlikely that a player averaging 7 (or so ) blocks a game would get 10 or more fairly regularly, and you didn't seem to interested in disagreeing with my estimates of his blocks/game until I pointed out how unlikely your claims were if you used that number.
Sure I did, I said the highest I remember seeing is 6.  Again, I've also seen 3s and 4s.  If 7 is your middle then I'd love to see which credible guys are saying 10.  Hakeem and Robinson were about as athletic as they come, I'm not sure a guy 4 inches shorter than them could average 3 times as many blocks.

The numbers I brought up were to paint a picture of how tough it was for the league's best shot blockers to put up 1 double digit block game throughout an 82 game season, let alone one in every 4-5 games like you're guessing Russell did every year.  Those guys were also throwing up nights where they had 0, 1, or 2 blocks and I figured/heard Russell was rather consistent, compared to you who went straight to assuming he had a decent variance.  That's why I asked if you were pulling this from actually watching him play.

Most of the time when people say they are confident in something it's because they have either data or observation to base it on.  Not because, "well, these projected numbers show it's possible."
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #100 on: August 09, 2014, 06:21:43 PM »

Offline mgent

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This is probably the only Rondo trade I've ever been on board with in my history on Celticsblog.

Ibaka is not where I thought he'd be by now, but he's still the guy who had 3 10+ block games in 1 month.  I'm not even sure Russell ever did that.  He still has HOF potential.
Most HOFers have made at least one whole all star game by the age of 24

I specifically implied he wasn't on track.

He might never be a first ballot, but he does have the potential to one day have a Rodman-type impact on defense, with less rebounding and much better scoring (Rodman wasn't even in the league by the age of 24 and played his first of only two "whole" ASGs at 28).

   Rodman dominated the league in rebounding for a number of years. And by dominate I mean he probably dominated the league in rebounding more than any player's dominated the league in any major statistical category in league history
I know this, I never said anything to contradict that.  But his dominance didn't lead to many All-Star appearances.  He said most HOFers have at least 1 All-Star appearance and it just so happened the first one I thought of to make the HOF on defense didn't meet that criteria, nor was he even in the league.  What are you disagreeing with?

If Ibaka becomes an 18 ppg, 10 rpg, 3 bpg player on 55% shooting, (which he almost already is) and wins a couple rings, I could see him one day making the HOF.  You don't need to be dominant in something to be inducted into the Hall (rather, that made up for Rodman's lack of offense).  Those are Alonzo type numbers.  Dominating on Team Spain for a while now that Pau is old might help.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #101 on: August 09, 2014, 06:47:16 PM »

Offline mgent

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This is probably the only Rondo trade I've ever been on board with in my history on Celticsblog.

Ibaka is not where I thought he'd be by now, but he's still the guy who had 3 10+ block games in 1 month.  I'm not even sure Russell ever did that.  He still has HOF potential.
Most HOFers have made at least one whole all star game by the age of 24

I specifically implied he wasn't on track.

He might never be a first ballot, but he does have the potential to one day have a Rodman-type impact on defense, with less rebounding and much better scoring (Rodman wasn't even in the league by the age of 24 and played his first of only two "whole" ASGs at 28).

   Rodman dominated the league in rebounding for a number of years. And by dominate I mean he probably dominated the league in rebounding more than any player's dominated the league in any major statistical category in league history
Also, I've got to call hyperbole on that on last part.  He averaged 18.7 rpg in a season where the second leading rebounder had 15.5.  Wilt averaged 50 ppg when the next closest guy had 31.  He led the league in scoring for the first 7 seasons of his career, and has 5 of the top 7 scoring averages, including the top 3.

He also led the league in rebounding for 11 out of the 14 years he was in the league, and was 2nd the years he didn't.  Rodman led the league in rebounding 7 out of his 14 years and wasn't even close to the top the other years.

You could probably also argue he dominated FG% more than Rodman dominated rebounding in his career.  He led the league in 9 out of 14 years.  His 73% is almost 6% more than the next best Artis Gilmore's, and 18% higher than Kareem who had the second highest that year.  Basically, it's a sin to talk about dominating statistical categories without even mentioning Wilt.  Hell, he led the league in minutes/game 8 times.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 06:54:04 PM by mgent »
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #102 on: August 09, 2014, 08:10:39 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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no, the only two players I want on the Celtics from the OKC Thunder are Westbrook and Durant. There is no way in hell we can get Durant with Rondo and trade the entire team for. I do think Westbrook is a legit chance. Rondo, 2 1st rounders and fillers may be enough to grab Westbrook

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #103 on: August 09, 2014, 09:53:19 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Beat LA: did you not want KG as a Celtic after he punched Channing Frye in the nuts?

I knew that someone was going to bring up some incident haha involving KG, and no, that altercation didn't make me sick to see Garnett in green.  Is that what really happened on that play (I honestly can only vaguely remember it)?  I mean sure, it's not good, but that was a one-time thing.  Garnett, as far I've seen, has never set out to maim or punk players or anything like that, while this 'feud' between Ibaka and Griffin has been going on for the past two years I want to say.  During every game between the Clippers and OKC, something inevitably happens to Blake (who is also a punk lol) at the hands of Ibaka, and I don't want any 'head hunters' on our team, so to speak.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2014, 10:08:07 PM »

Offline bleedGREENdon

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Why is this even a discussion, OKC would not trade rondo for serge.  They have Russ