Author Topic: Completely confused by the star model, Love and Lebron  (Read 3220 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Completely confused by the star model, Love and Lebron
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2014, 04:36:39 PM »

Offline soap07

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1557
  • Tommy Points: 145
With ESPN and lots of sports "analysts" wetting their pants over the chances of Love joining Lebron and Irving in Cleveland and Lebron himself apparently recruiting Love, I find myself completely baffled.

The Heat literally broke up their big 3 two weeks ago because having three max or near max players had crippled their ability to fill out the rest of the roster and have a competent bench. This roster makeup had forced Lebron to carry too much of a load and was also referenced by him at the end of the season as a need to add youth and depth at every position.

So here we are 1 month later and the Cavs have a second star, but also a lot of really young talent in Bennett, Thompson, Wiggins and Waiters and have some options to add nice pieces at the break for Haywoods salarys or next offseason. Seems like they have solved some of the Heat's problems. Now they want to literally follow the heat model with 3 max players and trade away all their role players and youth and future salary cap flexibility? It seems absolutely ridiculous.

If this team has to give up Wiggins plus another one of Bennett, Waiters or Thompson (which they almost certainly do for salary match).... aren't they just a slightly better heat (maybe)?
Does trading away someone that is projected to be an immediate solid wing defender (Wiggins) for a guy that is at best average (Love), force Lebron to carry the load on defense?

A couple things: Under the Heat model, they won 2 rings and did put together a competent bench. Secondly, Love is 25. He's not the age of Bosh or Wade. He is young, elite talent. Thirdly, all those assets you mentioned - they wouldn't have to trade all of them for Love. The Cavs would still have some pieces left over that would have that youth and athleticism the Heat lacked.

The CHeat got beat by two deep teams, and almost lost a 3rd, but Allen totally bailed them out with luck play. They could have only come out with 1 ring if it wasn't for that, and that was against a thin OCK team.

The OP didn't say the Cavs would have to trade all the assets. It would be Wiggins, and at least one of Bennett(who could be as good as love in a couple years) Waiters or Thompson.
They have no other assets to give up to make the deal. They would kill their cap space for the next 5 years and end up just like Miami did. And other teams have been looking at the Spurs who seem to be in it every year.

The Celtics got hurt by not having enough cap space in 2010 hurt winning in game 7 when Perk was down and they couldn't bring in an other quality center and had Wallace with a bad back playing too many minutes.

Pretty sure if the Cavs "end up like Miami did" - meaning 2 rings and 4 straight Finals appearances, they would be thrilled with that result. Thrilled.

I would bet the farm that Anthony Bennett will not be anywhere close to Love in production or any other way - except maybe geographically when Love needs someone to abuse during practice.

Funny thing about the Celtics example you use in Game 7 - Wallace played pretty well in that game.

Quote
"And other teams have been looking at the Spurs who seem to be in it every year."

I'm not quite sure what this means other than to point out that in the last 4 years: The Heat were literally in it every year. And had a better run of success than the Spurs.

Well if we really want to do a comparison of the heat and cavs until this past year, wade was a far superior player to Irving. He was in the ballpark of lebron the first year in terms of skills.  If Irving and Love were as good as good as bosh and Wade were 4 years ago wouldn't one of their teams have been close to making the playoffs last year? Especially Irving in the terrible east?

I do think you are also ignoring the cap completely. The big Three in Miami were actually making less than the new big three in Cleveland would and had problems filling out their roster. You can point to Ray Allen all you want as a minimum bench guy, but he is the exception rather than the rule. Are we so quick to forget  washed up Dampier, Bibby, Magloire, Big Z, Joel anthony, Beasely, Stackhouse, Eddie Curry, Oden and other crap players the teams tried to fill their gaps at center, point guard and backup wing during the big 3 era because they couldn't afford better?

To make an apples-to-apples comparison of Bosh/Wade 3 years ago and Irving/Love now is a bit pointless. Love and Irving had significant injury issues and that kept them off the floor (Now this is a legitimate concern for the Cavs - but we digress.) Love plays in the West. The pre-LeBron Heat/Raptors would not make playoffs in the West. Irving is entering his third year - it's a 2 year sample size. Irving was also supposed to have a healthy Bynum (which obviously never ended up working out.) These things matter. Supporting casts matter.

And to your second point, yes, it is tougher to fill out a bench when you have 3 stars.....but, you don't need that much from your bench when you have...3 stars. Yes, the Heat had a ton of misfires. But it didn't really affect the on-court product that much considering the results. They don't need much from the bench - just enough.

Do you think the Heat approach didn't work? Honestly, yes, their bench was an issue. But 4 straight Finals. 2 rings. It was a winning formula. I don't see how that can be disputed. That doesn't mean it's perfect or doesn't have its drawbacks. But it did work for them.






Re: Completely confused by the star model, Love and Lebron
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2014, 04:53:30 PM »

Offline soap07

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1557
  • Tommy Points: 145
LeBron never had my respect, and never will.

Also recruiting Mike Miller, James Jones, and probably Ray Allen...this is already half of the Miami Heat power in Cleveland.

LeQueen will stay winless in Cleveland.

Also are we in some bizarre basketball world where the players are not aging? Miller and Allen are beyond washed up at this point and James Jones is a never was (who is about to turn 34 himself).  Why is getting a combined 108 years of shooters that can't guard a chair a good use of your roster....

If you watched Mike Miller play last year, you would know that he is still a very productive player.

James Jones is going to be like the 9th or 10th player on the team.

Again, you're cherry picking. Look at the rest of the roster. Varejao would be a better 4th banana than anyone the Heat ever had. Then you have the other young guys on the Cavs.

Re: Completely confused by the star model, Love and Lebron
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2014, 05:01:34 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16178
  • Tommy Points: 1407
LeBron never had my respect, and never will.

Also recruiting Mike Miller, James Jones, and probably Ray Allen...this is already half of the Miami Heat power in Cleveland.

LeQueen will stay winless in Cleveland.

Also are we in some bizarre basketball world where the players are not aging? Miller and Allen are beyond washed up at this point and James Jones is a never was (who is about to turn 34 himself).  Why is getting a combined 108 years of shooters that can't guard a chair a good use of your roster....

If you watched Mike Miller play last year, you would know that he is still a very productive player.

James Jones is going to be like the 9th or 10th player on the team.

Again, you're cherry picking. Look at the rest of the roster. Varejao would be a better 4th banana than anyone the Heat ever had. Then you have the other young guys on the Cavs.

I don't know if you realized this but Varejao has played 160 games .... in the last 4 seasons (and is about to turn 32). If he is better than anyone the Heat had as their 4th best player the last 4 years that is a really strong indictment of those heat teams. I would argue Ray Allen in his first year with them wasn't even in the same league as Varejao is now (if he can ever play) 

Re: Completely confused by the star model, Love and Lebron
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2014, 05:03:17 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
What a wonky quote party.



If you watched Mike Miller play last year, you would know that he is still a very productive player.

James Jones is going to be like the 9th or 10th player on the team.

Again, you're cherry picking. Look at the rest of the roster. Varejao would be a better 4th banana than anyone the Heat ever had. Then you have the other young guys on the Cavs.

I don't know if you realized this but Varejao has played 160 games .... in the last 4 seasons (and is about to turn 32). If he is better than anyone the Heat had as their 4th best player the last 4 years that is a really strong indictment of those heat teams. I would argue Ray Allen in his first year with them wasn't even in the same league as Varejao is now (if he can ever play) 


There. Start There.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Completely confused by the star model, Love and Lebron
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2014, 05:03:26 PM »

Offline Sketch5

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3247
  • Tommy Points: 281
With ESPN and lots of sports "analysts" wetting their pants over the chances of Love joining Lebron and Irving in Cleveland and Lebron himself apparently recruiting Love, I find myself completely baffled.

The Heat literally broke up their big 3 two weeks ago because having three max or near max players had crippled their ability to fill out the rest of the roster and have a competent bench. This roster makeup had forced Lebron to carry too much of a load and was also referenced by him at the end of the season as a need to add youth and depth at every position.

So here we are 1 month later and the Cavs have a second star, but also a lot of really young talent in Bennett, Thompson, Wiggins and Waiters and have some options to add nice pieces at the break for Haywoods salarys or next offseason. Seems like they have solved some of the Heat's problems. Now they want to literally follow the heat model with 3 max players and trade away all their role players and youth and future salary cap flexibility? It seems absolutely ridiculous.

If this team has to give up Wiggins plus another one of Bennett, Waiters or Thompson (which they almost certainly do for salary match).... aren't they just a slightly better heat (maybe)?
Does trading away someone that is projected to be an immediate solid wing defender (Wiggins) for a guy that is at best average (Love), force Lebron to carry the load on defense?

A couple things: Under the Heat model, they won 2 rings and did put together a competent bench. Secondly, Love is 25. He's not the age of Bosh or Wade. He is young, elite talent. Thirdly, all those assets you mentioned - they wouldn't have to trade all of them for Love. The Cavs would still have some pieces left over that would have that youth and athleticism the Heat lacked.

The CHeat got beat by two deep teams, and almost lost a 3rd, but Allen totally bailed them out with luck play. They could have only come out with 1 ring if it wasn't for that, and that was against a thin OCK team.

The OP didn't say the Cavs would have to trade all the assets. It would be Wiggins, and at least one of Bennett(who could be as good as love in a couple years) Waiters or Thompson.
They have no other assets to give up to make the deal. They would kill their cap space for the next 5 years and end up just like Miami did. And other teams have been looking at the Spurs who seem to be in it every year.

The Celtics got hurt by not having enough cap space in 2010 hurt winning in game 7 when Perk was down and they couldn't bring in an other quality center and had Wallace with a bad back playing too many minutes.

Pretty sure if the Cavs "end up like Miami did" - meaning 2 rings and 4 straight Finals appearances, they would be thrilled with that result. Thrilled.

I would bet the farm that Anthony Bennett will not be anywhere close to Love in production or any other way - except maybe geographically when Love needs someone to abuse during practice.

Funny thing about the Celtics example you use in Game 7 - Wallace played pretty well in that game.

Quote
"And other teams have been looking at the Spurs who seem to be in it every year."

I'm not quite sure what this means other than to point out that in the last 4 years: The Heat were literally in it every year. And had a better run of success than the Spurs.

Well if we really want to do a comparison of the heat and cavs until this past year, wade was a far superior player to Irving. He was in the ballpark of lebron the first year in terms of skills.  If Irving and Love were as good as good as bosh and Wade were 4 years ago wouldn't one of their teams have been close to making the playoffs last year? Especially Irving in the terrible east?

I do think you are also ignoring the cap completely. The big Three in Miami were actually making less than the new big three in Cleveland would and had problems filling out their roster. You can point to Ray Allen all you want as a minimum bench guy, but he is the exception rather than the rule. Are we so quick to forget  washed up Dampier, Bibby, Magloire, Big Z, Joel anthony, Beasely, Stackhouse, Eddie Curry, Oden and other crap players the teams tried to fill their gaps at center, point guard and backup wing during the big 3 era because they couldn't afford better?

To make an apples-to-apples comparison of Bosh/Wade 3 years ago and Irving/Love now is a bit pointless. Love and Irving had significant injury issues and that kept them off the floor (Now this is a legitimate concern for the Cavs - but we digress.) Love plays in the West. The pre-LeBron Heat/Raptors would not make playoffs in the West. Irving is entering his third year - it's a 2 year sample size. Irving was also supposed to have a healthy Bynum (which obviously never ended up working out.) These things matter. Supporting casts matter.

And to your second point, yes, it is tougher to fill out a bench when you have 3 stars.....but, you don't need that much from your bench when you have...3 stars. Yes, the Heat had a ton of misfires. But it didn't really affect the on-court product that much considering the results. They don't need much from the bench - just enough.

Do you think the Heat approach didn't work? Honestly, yes, their bench was an issue. But 4 straight Finals. 2 rings. It was a winning formula. I don't see how that can be disputed. That doesn't mean it's perfect or doesn't have its drawbacks. But it did work for them.

The Spurs have been pretty relevant for most part of Duncans career because they have a good team, not the best three players. Thats what that means.

Wallace while played well, was gassed at the end of the game, and not a real center. They needed one more guy to help with the boards that they were getting killed in at the end of the game. And that also took a toll on Wallaces back.

Cleveland will have less cap space than Miami. Lebron will get heading into his 30's and people have been saying he's looking for MJ type money. Even with a bigger cap, thats going to make it tight.

Not having a bench wore out Lebron and killed what remaining of Wades knees. And again they barley won the second ring. The Spurs almost happen except Allen pulled one out. And the Spurs came back, and were the better team by a long shot. They had the 3 best players on the floor and got smoked, not beating, pounded and humiliated. Indiana has a similar team to the Spurs, and if not for crap going on behind the scenes I think they would have beaten Miami. Which would have limited Miami to 3 appearances.

You put Miami in the West, I don't think they would have come out one top so easily.

Give me two max guys and then a bench of well rounded players any day next to three max guys and a broken down old bench any day of the week. 

Re: Completely confused by the star model, Love and Lebron
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2014, 05:39:25 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16178
  • Tommy Points: 1407
With ESPN and lots of sports "analysts" wetting their pants over the chances of Love joining Lebron and Irving in Cleveland and Lebron himself apparently recruiting Love, I find myself completely baffled.

The Heat literally broke up their big 3 two weeks ago because having three max or near max players had crippled their ability to fill out the rest of the roster and have a competent bench. This roster makeup had forced Lebron to carry too much of a load and was also referenced by him at the end of the season as a need to add youth and depth at every position.

So here we are 1 month later and the Cavs have a second star, but also a lot of really young talent in Bennett, Thompson, Wiggins and Waiters and have some options to add nice pieces at the break for Haywoods salarys or next offseason. Seems like they have solved some of the Heat's problems. Now they want to literally follow the heat model with 3 max players and trade away all their role players and youth and future salary cap flexibility? It seems absolutely ridiculous.

If this team has to give up Wiggins plus another one of Bennett, Waiters or Thompson (which they almost certainly do for salary match).... aren't they just a slightly better heat (maybe)?
Does trading away someone that is projected to be an immediate solid wing defender (Wiggins) for a guy that is at best average (Love), force Lebron to carry the load on defense?

A couple things: Under the Heat model, they won 2 rings and did put together a competent bench. Secondly, Love is 25. He's not the age of Bosh or Wade. He is young, elite talent. Thirdly, all those assets you mentioned - they wouldn't have to trade all of them for Love. The Cavs would still have some pieces left over that would have that youth and athleticism the Heat lacked.

The CHeat got beat by two deep teams, and almost lost a 3rd, but Allen totally bailed them out with luck play. They could have only come out with 1 ring if it wasn't for that, and that was against a thin OCK team.

The OP didn't say the Cavs would have to trade all the assets. It would be Wiggins, and at least one of Bennett(who could be as good as love in a couple years) Waiters or Thompson.
They have no other assets to give up to make the deal. They would kill their cap space for the next 5 years and end up just like Miami did. And other teams have been looking at the Spurs who seem to be in it every year.

The Celtics got hurt by not having enough cap space in 2010 hurt winning in game 7 when Perk was down and they couldn't bring in an other quality center and had Wallace with a bad back playing too many minutes.

Pretty sure if the Cavs "end up like Miami did" - meaning 2 rings and 4 straight Finals appearances, they would be thrilled with that result. Thrilled.

I would bet the farm that Anthony Bennett will not be anywhere close to Love in production or any other way - except maybe geographically when Love needs someone to abuse during practice.

Funny thing about the Celtics example you use in Game 7 - Wallace played pretty well in that game.

Quote
"And other teams have been looking at the Spurs who seem to be in it every year."

I'm not quite sure what this means other than to point out that in the last 4 years: The Heat were literally in it every year. And had a better run of success than the Spurs.

Well if we really want to do a comparison of the heat and cavs until this past year, wade was a far superior player to Irving. He was in the ballpark of lebron the first year in terms of skills.  If Irving and Love were as good as good as bosh and Wade were 4 years ago wouldn't one of their teams have been close to making the playoffs last year? Especially Irving in the terrible east?

I do think you are also ignoring the cap completely. The big Three in Miami were actually making less than the new big three in Cleveland would and had problems filling out their roster. You can point to Ray Allen all you want as a minimum bench guy, but he is the exception rather than the rule. Are we so quick to forget  washed up Dampier, Bibby, Magloire, Big Z, Joel anthony, Beasely, Stackhouse, Eddie Curry, Oden and other crap players the teams tried to fill their gaps at center, point guard and backup wing during the big 3 era because they couldn't afford better?

To make an apples-to-apples comparison of Bosh/Wade 3 years ago and Irving/Love now is a bit pointless. Love and Irving had significant injury issues and that kept them off the floor (Now this is a legitimate concern for the Cavs - but we digress.) Love plays in the West. The pre-LeBron Heat/Raptors would not make playoffs in the West. Irving is entering his third year - it's a 2 year sample size. Irving was also supposed to have a healthy Bynum (which obviously never ended up working out.) These things matter. Supporting casts matter.

And to your second point, yes, it is tougher to fill out a bench when you have 3 stars.....but, you don't need that much from your bench when you have...3 stars. Yes, the Heat had a ton of misfires. But it didn't really affect the on-court product that much considering the results. They don't need much from the bench - just enough.

Do you think the Heat approach didn't work? Honestly, yes, their bench was an issue. But 4 straight Finals. 2 rings. It was a winning formula. I don't see how that can be disputed. That doesn't mean it's perfect or doesn't have its drawbacks. But it did work for them.

The Spurs have been pretty relevant for most part of Duncans career because they have a good team, not the best three players. Thats what that means.

Wallace while played well, was gassed at the end of the game, and not a real center. They needed one more guy to help with the boards that they were getting killed in at the end of the game. And that also took a toll on Wallaces back.

Cleveland will have less cap space than Miami. Lebron will get heading into his 30's and people have been saying he's looking for MJ type money. Even with a bigger cap, thats going to make it tight.

Not having a bench wore out Lebron and killed what remaining of Wades knees. And again they barley won the second ring. The Spurs almost happen except Allen pulled one out. And the Spurs came back, and were the better team by a long shot. They had the 3 best players on the floor and got smoked, not beating, pounded and humiliated. Indiana has a similar team to the Spurs, and if not for crap going on behind the scenes I think they would have beaten Miami. Which would have limited Miami to 3 appearances.

You put Miami in the West, I don't think they would have come out one top so easily.

Give me two max guys and then a bench of well rounded players any day next to three max guys and a broken down old bench any day of the week.

THIS TP