Completely confused by the star model, Love and Lebron

[celticsclay]

With ESPN and lots of sports "analysts" wetting their pants over the chances of Love joining Lebron and Irving in Cleveland and Lebron himself apparently recruiting Love, I find myself completely baffled.

The Heat literally broke up their big 3 two weeks ago because having three max or near max players had crippled their ability to fill out the rest of the roster and have a competent bench. This roster makeup had forced Lebron to carry too much of a load and was also referenced by him at the end of the season as a need to add youth and depth at every position.

So here we are 1 month later and the Cavs have a second star, but also a lot of really young talent in Bennett, Thompson, Wiggins and Waiters and have some options to add nice pieces at the break for Haywoods salarys or next offseason. Seems like they have solved some of the Heat's problems. Now they want to literally follow the heat model with 3 max players and trade away all their role players and youth and future salary cap flexibility? It seems absolutely ridiculous.

If this team has to give up Wiggins plus another one of Bennett, Waiters or Thompson (which they almost certainly do for salary match).... aren't they just a slightly better heat (maybe)?
Does trading away someone that is projected to be an immediate solid wing defender (Wiggins) for a guy that is at best average (Love), force Lebron to carry the load on defense?

[Sketch5]

Yep, Lebron is dumb.

He's also lazy and doesn't want to earn a ring. He sat there and talked about the Spurs and all the great shooters they had and waves of players. He talks about Cleveland being a hard working town and how they deserve a team that represents them, and how he knows it wont come easy and soon, but will work to making players better.

What a bunch of crap. I had some respect for Lebron going back to Cleveland. Taking the young players under his wing like Duncan did and winning the right way. But this going after Love crap is just weak and pathetic. Wiggins could be twice the player Love is, and nope, can't wait, to hard, need to bring in an other crutch.

He's not showing the youth of Cleveland how to work hard for what you get. He's only teaching them that if your rich and powerful you get what ever you want.

What a looser.

I wish Silver would step in and nail Lebron and Cleveland about Lebron reaching out to Love. I know it's no illegal, but you can't tell me the team didn't know this was going on. Head office reported it. It's tampering no matter how you put it, and if Silver wanted a better league, he'd nix this right now. Players have too much pull in the league.

I'd rather see Love go to GSW or even LA than to Cleveland and be Lebrons binky.

[celticsclay]

Well I think it will be kind of cool if they do get Love and don't win, because their bench will consist of a 40 Ray Allen, a 38 year Old Mike Miller a never was in James Jone and possibly 15 games of Andy V.

[soap07]

With ESPN and lots of sports "analysts" wetting their pants over the chances of Love joining Lebron and Irving in Cleveland and Lebron himself apparently recruiting Love, I find myself completely baffled.

The Heat literally broke up their big 3 two weeks ago because having three max or near max players had crippled their ability to fill out the rest of the roster and have a competent bench. This roster makeup had forced Lebron to carry too much of a load and was also referenced by him at the end of the season as a need to add youth and depth at every position.

So here we are 1 month later and the Cavs have a second star, but also a lot of really young talent in Bennett, Thompson, Wiggins and Waiters and have some options to add nice pieces at the break for Haywoods salarys or next offseason. Seems like they have solved some of the Heat's problems. Now they want to literally follow the heat model with 3 max players and trade away all their role players and youth and future salary cap flexibility? It seems absolutely ridiculous.

If this team has to give up Wiggins plus another one of Bennett, Waiters or Thompson (which they almost certainly do for salary match).... aren't they just a slightly better heat (maybe)?
Does trading away someone that is projected to be an immediate solid wing defender (Wiggins) for a guy that is at best average (Love), force Lebron to carry the load on defense?

A couple things: Under the Heat model, they won 2 rings and did put together a competent bench. Secondly, Love is 25. He's not the age of Bosh or Wade. He is young, elite talent. Thirdly, all those assets you mentioned - they wouldn't have to trade all of them for Love. The Cavs would still have some pieces left over that would have that youth and athleticism the Heat lacked.

[SparzWizard]

LeBron never had my respect, and never will.

Also recruiting Mike Miller, James Jones, and probably Ray Allen...this is already half of the Miami Heat power in Cleveland.

LeQueen will stay winless in Cleveland.

[celticsclay]

With ESPN and lots of sports "analysts" wetting their pants over the chances of Love joining Lebron and Irving in Cleveland and Lebron himself apparently recruiting Love, I find myself completely baffled.

The Heat literally broke up their big 3 two weeks ago because having three max or near max players had crippled their ability to fill out the rest of the roster and have a competent bench. This roster makeup had forced Lebron to carry too much of a load and was also referenced by him at the end of the season as a need to add youth and depth at every position.

So here we are 1 month later and the Cavs have a second star, but also a lot of really young talent in Bennett, Thompson, Wiggins and Waiters and have some options to add nice pieces at the break for Haywoods salarys or next offseason. Seems like they have solved some of the Heat's problems. Now they want to literally follow the heat model with 3 max players and trade away all their role players and youth and future salary cap flexibility? It seems absolutely ridiculous.

If this team has to give up Wiggins plus another one of Bennett, Waiters or Thompson (which they almost certainly do for salary match).... aren't they just a slightly better heat (maybe)?
Does trading away someone that is projected to be an immediate solid wing defender (Wiggins) for a guy that is at best average (Love), force Lebron to carry the load on defense?

A couple things: Under the Heat model, they won 2 rings and did put together a competent bench. Secondly, Love is 25. He's not the age of Bosh or Wade. He is young, elite talent. Thirdly, all those assets you mentioned - they wouldn't have to trade all of them for Love. The Cavs would still have some pieces left over that would have that youth and athleticism the Heat lacked.

They really should only have one 1 title, and teams have gotten smarter over the last few years, at least in the West. If it wasn't clear in the most lopsided finals in history, their were serious problems with the Heat last year. I believe if it were not for a lot of injuries to really key players (Lopez and Rose would be the most obvious) they might not have even made the finals last year.

Is 30 old? That is how old Bosh is. I am not entirely convinced that he wouldn't put up 22 and 8 if he played in Minnesota's fast paced system and offer better defense than Love.

Finally how in the world did the Heat have a competent bench last year. Ray Allen is clearly deteriorating before our eyes. Battier was a shell and retired. Oden may have very well played his last minutes in the NBA. Birdman is 36 and losing his athleticism. Haslem, Cole, Beasely? For the most part players have major warts when they are making the NBA minimum and that's what their bench was, full of warts. 

[Sketch5]

With ESPN and lots of sports "analysts" wetting their pants over the chances of Love joining Lebron and Irving in Cleveland and Lebron himself apparently recruiting Love, I find myself completely baffled.

The Heat literally broke up their big 3 two weeks ago because having three max or near max players had crippled their ability to fill out the rest of the roster and have a competent bench. This roster makeup had forced Lebron to carry too much of a load and was also referenced by him at the end of the season as a need to add youth and depth at every position.

So here we are 1 month later and the Cavs have a second star, but also a lot of really young talent in Bennett, Thompson, Wiggins and Waiters and have some options to add nice pieces at the break for Haywoods salarys or next offseason. Seems like they have solved some of the Heat's problems. Now they want to literally follow the heat model with 3 max players and trade away all their role players and youth and future salary cap flexibility? It seems absolutely ridiculous.

If this team has to give up Wiggins plus another one of Bennett, Waiters or Thompson (which they almost certainly do for salary match).... aren't they just a slightly better heat (maybe)?
Does trading away someone that is projected to be an immediate solid wing defender (Wiggins) for a guy that is at best average (Love), force Lebron to carry the load on defense?

A couple things: Under the Heat model, they won 2 rings and did put together a competent bench. Secondly, Love is 25. He's not the age of Bosh or Wade. He is young, elite talent. Thirdly, all those assets you mentioned - they wouldn't have to trade all of them for Love. The Cavs would still have some pieces left over that would have that youth and athleticism the Heat lacked.

The CHeat got beat by two deep teams, and almost lost a 3rd, but Allen totally bailed them out with luck play. They could have only come out with 1 ring if it wasn't for that, and that was against a thin OCK team.

The OP didn't say the Cavs would have to trade all the assets. It would be Wiggins, and at least one of Bennett(who could be as good as love in a couple years) Waiters or Thompson.
They have no other assets to give up to make the deal. They would kill their cap space for the next 5 years and end up just like Miami did. And other teams have been looking at the Spurs who seem to be in it every year.

The Celtics got hurt by not having enough cap space in 2010 hurt winning in game 7 when Perk was down and they couldn't bring in an other quality center and had Wallace with a bad back playing too many minutes.

[loco_91]

you cannot cite the Heat as an example of why the star system doesn't work. They won it all twice, and they made the finals 4 consecutive times. Their biggest issue was Wade's health, not the structure of their payroll... in fact, they showed that once you have the stars, you can attract quality roll players at a discount (remember Ray?)

I'm biased because I don't think Wiggins will be more than a quality 3&D&transition roll player, so I don't think the Cavs will give up that much. But frankly, Love is so so good that they'd be silly not to mortgage the farm for him. He's such a good complement to Lebron and Kyrie both, due to his floor spacing and outlet passing. We could be looking at the greatest NBA offense of all time.

[D.o.s.]

Kevin Love kind of sucks.

[soap07]

With ESPN and lots of sports "analysts" wetting their pants over the chances of Love joining Lebron and Irving in Cleveland and Lebron himself apparently recruiting Love, I find myself completely baffled.

The Heat literally broke up their big 3 two weeks ago because having three max or near max players had crippled their ability to fill out the rest of the roster and have a competent bench. This roster makeup had forced Lebron to carry too much of a load and was also referenced by him at the end of the season as a need to add youth and depth at every position.

So here we are 1 month later and the Cavs have a second star, but also a lot of really young talent in Bennett, Thompson, Wiggins and Waiters and have some options to add nice pieces at the break for Haywoods salarys or next offseason. Seems like they have solved some of the Heat's problems. Now they want to literally follow the heat model with 3 max players and trade away all their role players and youth and future salary cap flexibility? It seems absolutely ridiculous.

If this team has to give up Wiggins plus another one of Bennett, Waiters or Thompson (which they almost certainly do for salary match).... aren't they just a slightly better heat (maybe)?
Does trading away someone that is projected to be an immediate solid wing defender (Wiggins) for a guy that is at best average (Love), force Lebron to carry the load on defense?

A couple things: Under the Heat model, they won 2 rings and did put together a competent bench. Secondly, Love is 25. He's not the age of Bosh or Wade. He is young, elite talent. Thirdly, all those assets you mentioned - they wouldn't have to trade all of them for Love. The Cavs would still have some pieces left over that would have that youth and athleticism the Heat lacked.

The CHeat got beat by two deep teams, and almost lost a 3rd, but Allen totally bailed them out with luck play. They could have only come out with 1 ring if it wasn't for that, and that was against a thin OCK team.

The OP didn't say the Cavs would have to trade all the assets. It would be Wiggins, and at least one of Bennett(who could be as good as love in a couple years) Waiters or Thompson.
They have no other assets to give up to make the deal. They would kill their cap space for the next 5 years and end up just like Miami did. And other teams have been looking at the Spurs who seem to be in it every year.

The Celtics got hurt by not having enough cap space in 2010 hurt winning in game 7 when Perk was down and they couldn't bring in an other quality center and had Wallace with a bad back playing too many minutes.

Pretty sure if the Cavs "end up like Miami did" - meaning 2 rings and 4 straight Finals appearances, they would be thrilled with that result. Thrilled.

I would bet the farm that Anthony Bennett will not be anywhere close to Love in production or any other way - except maybe geographically when Love needs someone to abuse during practice.

Funny thing about the Celtics example you use in Game 7 - Wallace played pretty well in that game.

"And other teams have been looking at the Spurs who seem to be in it every year."

I'm not quite sure what this means other than to point out that in the last 4 years: The Heat were literally in it every year. And had a better run of success than the Spurs.

[soap07]

They really should only have one 1 title, and teams have gotten smarter over the last few years, at least in the West. If it wasn't clear in the most lopsided finals in history, their were serious problems with the Heat last year. I believe if it were not for a lot of injuries to really key players (Lopez and Rose would be the most obvious) they might not have even made the finals last year.

Okay, I'm not sure why they "should" have one title. It was a 7 game series. It's not like the Heat just won game 6.

I believe if it were not for a lot of injuries to really key players (Lopez and Rose would be the most obvious) they might not have even made the finals last year.

Additionally, if pigs could fly, we probably wouldn't be consuming as much bacon as we do now in society - but that's not quite how it works.

Is 30 old? That is how old Bosh is. I am not entirely convinced that he wouldn't put up 22 and 8 if he played in Minnesota's fast paced system and offer better defense than Love.

That's great - except Love, at 25, already puts up numbers far superior to 22 and 8. Love isn't just elite offensively - he is one of the best - if not THE best - rebounder in the league. Bosh is a terrible rebounder. And not for nothing, it's a moot point. Bosh is 30 and on the downside of his career. He probably has 3-4 years of prime production (which is what, 20-7 maybe?) left. Love is 25 and just getting started.

Finally how in the world did the Heat have a competent bench last year. Ray Allen is clearly deteriorating before our eyes. Battier was a shell and retired. Oden may have very well played his last minutes in the NBA. Birdman is 36 and losing his athleticism. Haslem, Cole, Beasely? For the most part players have major warts when they are making the NBA minimum and that's what their bench was, full of warts.

Sure, the bench lacked last season. But the first three years - there were some very good bench contributors - including the ones you mentioned: Battier, Ray, Mike Miller, among others - Cole, Haslem, Birdman - all had some good moments throughout the years. And again, this is all a moot point...is your point that going the star route doesn't allow you to build a great bench? Maybe. But the Heat won 2 rings and made 4 Finals with this approach. What it allows you to do is to get role playing vets on the cheap - and the Heat did this to great effect.

The Cavs certainly are putting that to good to use by adding Miller and Jones.

[celticsclay]

With ESPN and lots of sports "analysts" wetting their pants over the chances of Love joining Lebron and Irving in Cleveland and Lebron himself apparently recruiting Love, I find myself completely baffled.

The Heat literally broke up their big 3 two weeks ago because having three max or near max players had crippled their ability to fill out the rest of the roster and have a competent bench. This roster makeup had forced Lebron to carry too much of a load and was also referenced by him at the end of the season as a need to add youth and depth at every position.

So here we are 1 month later and the Cavs have a second star, but also a lot of really young talent in Bennett, Thompson, Wiggins and Waiters and have some options to add nice pieces at the break for Haywoods salarys or next offseason. Seems like they have solved some of the Heat's problems. Now they want to literally follow the heat model with 3 max players and trade away all their role players and youth and future salary cap flexibility? It seems absolutely ridiculous.

If this team has to give up Wiggins plus another one of Bennett, Waiters or Thompson (which they almost certainly do for salary match).... aren't they just a slightly better heat (maybe)?
Does trading away someone that is projected to be an immediate solid wing defender (Wiggins) for a guy that is at best average (Love), force Lebron to carry the load on defense?

A couple things: Under the Heat model, they won 2 rings and did put together a competent bench. Secondly, Love is 25. He's not the age of Bosh or Wade. He is young, elite talent. Thirdly, all those assets you mentioned - they wouldn't have to trade all of them for Love. The Cavs would still have some pieces left over that would have that youth and athleticism the Heat lacked.

The CHeat got beat by two deep teams, and almost lost a 3rd, but Allen totally bailed them out with luck play. They could have only come out with 1 ring if it wasn't for that, and that was against a thin OCK team.

The OP didn't say the Cavs would have to trade all the assets. It would be Wiggins, and at least one of Bennett(who could be as good as love in a couple years) Waiters or Thompson.
They have no other assets to give up to make the deal. They would kill their cap space for the next 5 years and end up just like Miami did. And other teams have been looking at the Spurs who seem to be in it every year.

The Celtics got hurt by not having enough cap space in 2010 hurt winning in game 7 when Perk was down and they couldn't bring in an other quality center and had Wallace with a bad back playing too many minutes.

Pretty sure if the Cavs "end up like Miami did" - meaning 2 rings and 4 straight Finals appearances, they would be thrilled with that result. Thrilled.

I would bet the farm that Anthony Bennett will not be anywhere close to Love in production or any other way - except maybe geographically when Love needs someone to abuse during practice.

Funny thing about the Celtics example you use in Game 7 - Wallace played pretty well in that game.

"And other teams have been looking at the Spurs who seem to be in it every year."

I'm not quite sure what this means other than to point out that in the last 4 years: The Heat were literally in it every year. And had a better run of success than the Spurs.

Well if we really want to do a comparison of the heat and cavs until this past year, wade was a far superior player to Irving. He was in the ballpark of lebron the first year in terms of skills.  If Irving and Love were as good as good as bosh and Wade were 4 years ago wouldn't one of their teams have been close to making the playoffs last year? Especially Irving in the terrible east?

I do think you are also ignoring the cap completely. The big Three in Miami were actually making less than the new big three in Cleveland would and had problems filling out their roster. You can point to Ray Allen all you want as a minimum bench guy, but he is the exception rather than the rule. Are we so quick to forget  washed up Dampier, Bibby, Magloire, Big Z, Joel anthony, Beasely, Stackhouse, Eddie Curry, Oden and other crap players the teams tried to fill their gaps at center, point guard and backup wing during the big 3 era because they couldn't afford better?

[mqtcelticsfan]

LeBron never had my respect, and never will.

Also recruiting Mike Miller, James Jones, and probably Ray Allen...this is already half of the Miami Heat power in Cleveland.

LeQueen will stay winless in Cleveland.

Yes, building a similar team to the ones he played for over the last 4 years totally means he will not win. Never mind the fact that he has done almost nothing but win over that stretch.

[D.o.s.]

LeBron never had my respect, and never will.

Also recruiting Mike Miller, James Jones, and probably Ray Allen...this is already half of the Miami Heat power in Cleveland.

LeQueen will stay winless in Cleveland.

Yes, building a similar team to the ones he played for over the last 4 years totally means he will not win. Never mind the fact that he has done almost nothing but win over that stretch.

50 percent of the time, LeBron wins every time?

[celticsclay]

LeBron never had my respect, and never will.

Also recruiting Mike Miller, James Jones, and probably Ray Allen...this is already half of the Miami Heat power in Cleveland.

LeQueen will stay winless in Cleveland.

Also are we in some bizarre basketball world where the players are not aging? Miller and Allen are beyond washed up at this point and James Jones is a never was (who is about to turn 34 himself).  Why is getting a combined 108 years of shooters that can't guard a chair a good use of your roster....