Author Topic: Needs to be said  (Read 20825 times)

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Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2014, 07:24:37 AM »

Offline moiso

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I am deeply disappointed with the way the Celtics' last season, off-season, and the next season, projected based on our players, has shaken out, and seems likely to shake out (as the case may be).

We have five player about the right height to play the point guard position:

Rondo, Smart, Thornton, Bradley and Pressey; they in turn either can't shoot, are too short, can't defend, or can't pass.

We have two players with big salaries who I don't expect to see a lot of playing time: Gerald Wallace and Keith Bogans.

Our starting small forward is basically a synonym for "inconsistent," and our two most exciting young players are both deeply flawed power forwards.

There is not one, single, complete player on the roster: no tall point guards who can defend, score and pass; no wing players who can drive, defend, and shoot, and no power forwards who can hit shots all over the court/are amazingly athletic and can defend. No two way centers. No three and D guys.

There are some bright spots: Green is athletic, Rondo has an amazing mind for the game; Zeller has some post, and pick and roll ability, and Olynyk's jumper is improving. And if James Young can shoot, he has the height to be a real asset at his position. But - realistically - this team can't guard 80% of the teams in the NBA right now, and probably won't be able to score on more than half of them. Next year is going to be very, very painful to watch. And after last year... Ouch.

You talk about our youth as if they're fully developed.  Even a guy like Sullinger is still only 22 years of age, and only has a year and a half under his belt.

No tall point guards on the roster who can defend ?  You have an all star point guard, what's the problem here ?  You just drafted one of the best defending Point Guards in college basketball.  He's 20, btw.

You need to be patient and let the process play out.  The only thing you need to know is this :

Boston's youth:

Smart
Bradley
Olynyk
Sullinger
Young

Boston's picks:

Boston's own picks
Brooklyn's 2016, 2017 (right to swap with Nets), 2018
2015 Clippers First Round Pick
2015 76ers First Round Pick (or two 2nds)
2016 Cavs First Round Pick (Top 10 protected in 16', 17', or 18'. Unprotected in 19')

Boston's expirings:

Joel Anthony
Keith Bogans
Brandon Bass
Marcus Thornton

You're setup to completely overhaul this thing and get back to the playoffs in a hurry.  Have some patience and let it unfold.  No end in sight ?  Please.  Gimme a break.
By the looks of him, a year and a half is not all Sullinger has under his belt :P

Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2014, 07:32:18 AM »

Offline moiso

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I wonder if the initial poster actually watched or paid attention to any Celtics games last season.  With all the youth, injuries and lack of any legitimate center, this team was regularly competitive night in and night out.  It was frustrating watching them blow lead after lead but at least they were good enough to get those leads.

Throw in the ridiculous number of draft picks Boston has over the next 4 years, the expiring contacts this coming season and the cap space Ainge will have next offseason even after resigning Rondo and there are fewer teams that have a greater chance to improve.

Mike
We were competitive in a lot of games because opposing teams didn't play hard until they had to.  We weren't a good team.

Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2014, 07:49:56 AM »

Offline LilRip

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I don't mind rebuilds, but I'm not enjoying the one the C's are currently on. To me, rebuilds are fun when it's a youth movement full of exciting and promising young players and when you have a clear franchise player to get behind. I'm semi-convinced of our youth movement (mainly because of Smart) but I'm not convinced Rondo can be that clear cut franchise guy.

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Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2014, 08:02:37 AM »

Offline gpap

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Quote
We all dreaded this .....the low point in the rebuild ......Hornets normal basketball.

The low point in the rebuild has already come and gone, and a lot of people around here are going to wonder why they were so unnecessarily miserable all summer.

All because of a complete inability to project growth from young players. Pathetic.

I know huh.

Those people who actually want to see a quality product on the floor when they invest their time and energy.

[dang] them.

I mean who doesn't want to sit down and watch a movie or a TV show they know is going to be bad?!!

What is this world coming to??!!

We should design t-shirts that say "0-82...I am IN, are YOU?"


Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2014, 11:27:26 AM »

Offline Sixth Man

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Quote
We all dreaded this .....the low point in the rebuild ......Hornets normal basketball.

The low point in the rebuild has already come and gone, and a lot of people around here are going to wonder why they were so unnecessarily miserable all summer.

All because of a complete inability to project growth from young players. Pathetic.

I know huh.

Those people who actually want to see a quality product on the floor when they invest their time and energy.

[dang] them.

I mean who doesn't want to sit down and watch a movie or a TV show they know is going to be bad?!!

What is this world coming to??!!

We should design t-shirts that say "0-82...I am IN, are YOU?"

There's still plenty of room in the Spurs victory vanguard if it's great basketball you're after.  Alternatively, you could take a flyer and switch your allegiance to the Cavs. 

By the way, expressing patience in the face of a complete rebuild isn't quite the same thing as hoping for a winless season, is it? 

Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2014, 02:51:16 PM »

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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I reckon the reason we lost that many games last season was because Ainge deliberately built glaring weaknesses into the roster. Particularly in the low post defence and trading away most of our 3 point shooting mid season. Compare our win loss record pre and post the Courtney Lee trade and it sticks out.  As stated by other posters, this roster is young. Guys like Olynyk, Bradley and Sullinger will likely shoot more efficiently, Smart and Young, as room as he settles in, will diversify our attackin options and I reckon Tyler Zeller may play a better 5 than folk expect.
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Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2014, 04:44:56 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Quote
We all dreaded this .....the low point in the rebuild ......Hornets normal basketball.

The low point in the rebuild has already come and gone, and a lot of people around here are going to wonder why they were so unnecessarily miserable all summer.

All because of a complete inability to project growth from young players. Pathetic.

I know huh.

Those people who actually want to see a quality product on the floor when they invest their time and energy.

[dang] them.

I mean who doesn't want to sit down and watch a movie or a TV show they know is going to be bad?!!

What is this world coming to??!!

We should design t-shirts that say "0-82...I am IN, are YOU?"

There's still plenty of room in the Spurs victory vanguard if it's great basketball you're after.  Alternatively, you could take a flyer and switch your allegiance to the Cavs. 

By the way, expressing patience in the face of a complete rebuild isn't quite the same thing as hoping for a winless season, is it?

That's not really the crux of NL's tone, though.

I will assume that some of us have more than a passing familiarity with the last 20 years of Celtics basketball, and don't wish to go back to the vast majority of it any longer than necessary.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2014, 12:41:36 AM »

Offline Chris22

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I reckon the reason we lost that many games last season was because Ainge deliberately built glaring weaknesses into the roster. Particularly in the low post defence and trading away most of our 3 point shooting mid season. Compare our win loss record pre and post the Courtney Lee trade and it sticks out.  As stated by other posters, this roster is young. Guys like Olynyk, Bradley and Sullinger will likely shoot more efficiently, Smart and Young, as room as he settles in, will diversify our attackin options and I reckon Tyler Zeller may play a better 5 than folk expect.

+1

Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2014, 01:17:47 AM »

Offline More Banners

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I reckon the reason we lost that many games last season was because Ainge deliberately built glaring weaknesses into the roster. Particularly in the low post defence and trading away most of our 3 point shooting mid season. Compare our win loss record pre and post the Courtney Lee trade and it sticks out.  As stated by other posters, this roster is young. Guys like Olynyk, Bradley and Sullinger will likely shoot more efficiently, Smart and Young, as room as he settles in, will diversify our attackin options and I reckon Tyler Zeller may play a better 5 than folk expect.

I suppose there wasn't much point in making moves to balance a roster that just wasn't going to get anywhere...like trading for Rodney Rogers/Tony Delk all over again.

Might as well stay in the box and wait for the HR ball to come along.

But with Rondo healthy and Bradley/Green/Bass still around, are we 1 player away from being a good team?

Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #84 on: July 19, 2014, 02:20:20 AM »

Offline Sixth Man

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Quote
We all dreaded this .....the low point in the rebuild ......Hornets normal basketball.

The low point in the rebuild has already come and gone, and a lot of people around here are going to wonder why they were so unnecessarily miserable all summer.

All because of a complete inability to project growth from young players. Pathetic.

I know huh.

Those people who actually want to see a quality product on the floor when they invest their time and energy.

[dang] them.

I mean who doesn't want to sit down and watch a movie or a TV show they know is going to be bad?!!

What is this world coming to??!!

We should design t-shirts that say "0-82...I am IN, are YOU?"

There's still plenty of room in the Spurs victory vanguard if it's great basketball you're after.  Alternatively, you could take a flyer and switch your allegiance to the Cavs. 

By the way, expressing patience in the face of a complete rebuild isn't quite the same thing as hoping for a winless season, is it?

That's not really the crux of NL's tone, though.

I will assume that some of us have more than a passing familiarity with the last 20 years of Celtics basketball, and don't wish to go back to the vast majority of it any longer than necessary.

Hmmm...seems to me that that is exactly the crux of NL's tone, which is why I commented.  What exactly does his '0-82' comment signify to you???

Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #85 on: July 19, 2014, 02:57:35 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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That wasn't Northern Lighting -- that was gpap.

Background: Northern Lightning has an extraordinarily optimistic view of how players will translate from college into the NBA. That optimism is pretty singularly his, although it overlaps with triboy16f's fairly frequently.

So, then, The idea that we're not seeing a good team because we've got our blinders on when it comes to the growth from young players, rather than the idea that we're not seeing a good team because there isn't one, is the tone I think gpap was responding to.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #86 on: July 19, 2014, 07:05:56 AM »

Offline the_Bird

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I agree with a lot of what the OP said; the team, right now, is in a pretty tough spot with the players currently on it. 

I don't really see the guy who we're going to rebuild around on the roster today.  Maybe it'll be Smart (I hope).  Skeptical that it's Rondo.  VERY skeptical that it's Sully these days.  Not convinced KO can defend at an acceptable-enough level.  "The Guy" for the next great (or just very good) Celtics squad is still playing elsewhere. 

But, I appreciate the KG/Pierce trade, and the pick haul it entailed.  But as I've detailed elsewhere, I'm not sure Danny's any better than an average drafter.  Given the caveat of he's usually been picking in the mid/late-mid part of the draft, there really aren't THAT many great players he's taken.  The only All-Star we've acquired via the draft is Rondo, and the only other guy that's close was Big Al.  A fair number of decent players and a fairly high number of busts.  Not any worse than most other teams...  but not really all that better.

TL/DR; if there' an opportunity to trade draft picks for impact players, don't be afraid to do so.

And, I don't hate watching a rebuilding team as long as I sense that they're actively trying to get better.  I've got a soft spot in my heart for the '06-'07 squad, because they busted tail every night.  I loved those guys - Delonte, young Rondo, Big Al, Perk, Tony Allen, Leon Powe, Ryan Gomes - there wasn't a TON of talent there, but a lot of very competitive players.  This year's squad...  meh.  "Competitive" in a lot of games, but so often it just felt like everyone was just going through the motions.  Once the intensity ratcheted ip, once the opposition started playing to win, we had no chance.  I'm hoping that adding Smart to the mix, and with Rondo coming back to health, that this will light a fire under the hundquarters of some of the guys who tend to coast (Uncle Jeffy). 

The biggest thing, though...  in '06-'07, the front office was TRYING to get better.  Last year, they were trying to get a better draft pick and trying to shed salary.  They actively wanted the team to win fewer games.  And don't try to convince me of why tanking is smart; I understand the logic behind it.  As a fan though, it sucks and it sucks and it sucks, it insults me, it's 100% antithetical to why we have sports competitions in the first place.  You play to win the Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.n game!

And three times out of four, you don't get the pick you wanted anyway, so you've wasted a season and are still p---ed off.

So, you see them shedding Courtney Lee, a player I've always thought got a bum rap, they shed him because he makes too much money.  I GET the logic, I understand why they did it but it's still making the team worse.  The failure to bring in ANYONE who might be able to defend the interior.  Trading middling players for worse players because their contracts are better.

Once they get to the point - hopefully soon - where the objective is "let's win as many as we can," it'll be better.  Right now, it's "let's clear space and get picks and try to get as many 'assets' as we can."  It's not the same objective, and that permeates down to the team. 

We'll see.  Had been optimistic that we might see something big get done this summer, but seems like we all might have overestimated how much value Sully, KO, and a #6 pick might have around the league.  As of today, I'm not sure we're any better than the squad that stumbled through last year. 

But don't tell me to go watch the Spurs, or the Cavs.  I really don't think it's too much to ask for me to expect the BOSTON [dang] CELTICS to show some pride and at least try to put out a competitive team.  I mean, is that unrealistic? 

Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #87 on: July 19, 2014, 08:33:52 AM »

Offline Sixth Man

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That wasn't Northern Lighting -- that was gpap.

Background: Northern Lightning has an extraordinarily optimistic view of how players will translate from college into the NBA. That optimism is pretty singularly his, although it overlaps with triboy16f's fairly frequently.

So, then, The idea that we're not seeing a good team because we've got our blinders on when it comes to the growth from young players, rather than the idea that we're not seeing a good team because there isn't one, is the tone I think gpap was responding to.

Well, D.o.s., I re-read it three times and I don't see your interpretation, but okay, I'm happy to take your word for it... 8)

Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #88 on: July 19, 2014, 08:43:31 AM »

Offline Sixth Man

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I agree with a lot of what the OP said; the team, right now, is in a pretty tough spot with the players currently on it. 

I don't really see the guy who we're going to rebuild around on the roster today.  Maybe it'll be Smart (I hope).  Skeptical that it's Rondo.  VERY skeptical that it's Sully these days.  Not convinced KO can defend at an acceptable-enough level.  "The Guy" for the next great (or just very good) Celtics squad is still playing elsewhere. 

But, I appreciate the KG/Pierce trade, and the pick haul it entailed.  But as I've detailed elsewhere, I'm not sure Danny's any better than an average drafter.  Given the caveat of he's usually been picking in the mid/late-mid part of the draft, there really aren't THAT many great players he's taken.  The only All-Star we've acquired via the draft is Rondo, and the only other guy that's close was Big Al.  A fair number of decent players and a fairly high number of busts.  Not any worse than most other teams...  but not really all that better.

TL/DR; if there' an opportunity to trade draft picks for impact players, don't be afraid to do so.

And, I don't hate watching a rebuilding team as long as I sense that they're actively trying to get better.  I've got a soft spot in my heart for the '06-'07 squad, because they busted tail every night.  I loved those guys - Delonte, young Rondo, Big Al, Perk, Tony Allen, Leon Powe, Ryan Gomes - there wasn't a TON of talent there, but a lot of very competitive players.  This year's squad...  meh.  "Competitive" in a lot of games, but so often it just felt like everyone was just going through the motions.  Once the intensity ratcheted ip, once the opposition started playing to win, we had no chance.  I'm hoping that adding Smart to the mix, and with Rondo coming back to health, that this will light a fire under the hundquarters of some of the guys who tend to coast (Uncle Jeffy). 

The biggest thing, though...  in '06-'07, the front office was TRYING to get better.  Last year, they were trying to get a better draft pick and trying to shed salary.  They actively wanted the team to win fewer games.  And don't try to convince me of why tanking is smart; I understand the logic behind it.  As a fan though, it sucks and it sucks and it sucks, it insults me, it's 100% antithetical to why we have sports competitions in the first place.  You play to win the ****n game!

And three times out of four, you don't get the pick you wanted anyway, so you've wasted a season and are still p---ed off.

So, you see them shedding Courtney Lee, a player I've always thought got a bum rap, they shed him because he makes too much money.  I GET the logic, I understand why they did it but it's still making the team worse.  The failure to bring in ANYONE who might be able to defend the interior.  Trading middling players for worse players because their contracts are better.

Once they get to the point - hopefully soon - where the objective is "let's win as many as we can," it'll be better.  Right now, it's "let's clear space and get picks and try to get as many 'assets' as we can."  It's not the same objective, and that permeates down to the team. 

We'll see.  Had been optimistic that we might see something big get done this summer, but seems like we all might have overestimated how much value Sully, KO, and a #6 pick might have around the league.  As of today, I'm not sure we're any better than the squad that stumbled through last year. 

But don't tell me to go watch the Spurs, or the Cavs.  I really don't think it's too much to ask for me to expect the BOSTON [dang] CELTICS to show some pride and at least try to put out a competitive team.  I mean, is that unrealistic?

It depends on if we're tanking for next season, as well.  If we are, then, yes, I believe that is 'unrealistic' as you put it.  Then again, I'm not sure that we all have the same operational definition of 'competitive' so...

As far as the original poster goes, I don't see anything wrong with my suggestion that he consider checking out the Spurs or maybe Cavs if he cannot stand to view the Celtics play because the general quality of basketball at hand is poor.  Trust me, when I felt a need on occasion last season to see basketball of the highest order, I'd find a Spurs game myself... :)

Personally, I have no problem whatsoever if anyone here wants to not view Celts games next season because of poor quality of play.  If we improve, they can simply come back and start viewing games then.  And for the record, I did not pay for the NBA League Pass last season and I won't this season, either.  However, when DA makes real progress with the rebuild, I'll suscribe again.

Re: Needs to be said
« Reply #89 on: July 19, 2014, 08:46:17 AM »

Offline Greenbean

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I am deeply disappointed with the way the Celtics' last season, off-season, and the next season, projected based on our players, has shaken out, and seems likely to shake out (as the case may be).

We have five player about the right height to play the point guard position:

Rondo, Smart, Thornton, Bradley and Pressey; they in turn either can't shoot, are too short, can't defend, or can't pass.

We have two players with big salaries who I don't expect to see a lot of playing time: Gerald Wallace and Keith Bogans.

Our starting small forward is basically a synonym for "inconsistent," and our two most exciting young players are both deeply flawed power forwards.

There is not one, single, complete player on the roster: no tall point guards who can defend, score and pass; no wing players who can drive, defend, and shoot, and no power forwards who can hit shots all over the court/are amazingly athletic and can defend. No two way centers. No three and D guys.

There are some bright spots: Green is athletic, Rondo has an amazing mind for the game; Zeller has some post, and pick and roll ability, and Olynyk's jumper is improving. And if James Young can shoot, he has the height to be a real asset at his position. But - realistically - this team can't guard 80% of the teams in the NBA right now, and probably won't be able to score on more than half of them. Next year is going to be very, very painful to watch. And after last year... Ouch.

You talk about our youth as if they're fully developed.  Even a guy like Sullinger is still only 22 years of age, and only has a year and a half under his belt.

No tall point guards on the roster who can defend ?  You have an all star point guard, what's the problem here ?  You just drafted one of the best defending Point Guards in college basketball.  He's 20, btw.

You need to be patient and let the process play out.  The only thing you need to know is this :

Boston's youth:

Smart
Bradley
Olynyk
Sullinger
Young

Boston's picks:

Boston's own picks
Brooklyn's 2016, 2017 (right to swap with Nets), 2018
2015 Clippers First Round Pick
2015 76ers First Round Pick (or two 2nds)
2016 Cavs First Round Pick (Top 10 protected in 16', 17', or 18'. Unprotected in 19')

Boston's expirings:

Joel Anthony
Keith Bogans
Brandon Bass
Marcus Thornton

You're setup to completely overhaul this thing and get back to the playoffs in a hurry.  Have some patience and let it unfold.  No end in sight ?  Please.  Gimme a break.

Really, when do you see the end? Do you see the end next year? Will that be the year we draft the franchise savior? No? How about 2016? No end in sight means - literally - what it says. I do not see a route for the Celtics to get back into contention. Even if we mortgage all of these assets for Love; is there a demonstrable difference, besides R. Rondo, in Boston's surrounding Roster and Minnesota's? Granter Rubio is a bit of a turd - but Pekovic is better than any center or forward on our roster. Does Love, Rondo, Olynyk, Green and Avery Bradley win you the EC?

No. Way.

There are literally five teams who are better, maybe more.

There is no end in sight. You know someone is pulling your chain when they tell you to trust in the fearless leader. Is Danny Ainge a genius? No! He has clearly whiffed on a number of picks. ...no one is perfect, and I don't blame him for trying - but betting on a "pick" is betting on some 19 year old kid. Why would a free agent want to play here? To experience the simmering tension of Gerald Wallace not getting playing time? To watch Olynyk get smoked on defense? To wonder which Jeff Green is going to show up on any given night?

Look - our best player - and it's not close, Rondo - is flawed. He is simply not a good enough shooter. He is a sub-30% 3p shooter, and has never - NEVER - shot better than 70% from the FT line, league AVERAGE is 75%+. Anyway - his greatest strengths are minimized with this team, as we are not really that athletic, and aren't great shooters.

Where is this end in sight? You tell me. But don't resort to that condescending "we have a super hero" garbage argument. Rah rah. I'm a fan also - that's why I care about it. If we have a super hero, tell me why he's a super hero. What has Brad Stevens done in the NBA again that leads you to feel so confident in him?


This is silly. Youre saying there is no way the celtics ever contend again?

No. I am decidedly not saying that.

I am saying: I don't see the plan here. Is the plan an '07 style "flotsam for KG" type trade? Is the plan, "draft young players and see what happens?" Is the plan, "pursue Marc Gasol and LaMarcus Aldridge in 2015?"

An "asset" doesn't win a basketball game. And you know what, I can enjoy like 30 games of players "developing" before watching another loss gets disheartening. I'm just lamenting.

The way forward doesn't seem clear to me. Why did Bradley get a $32M contract? Why do we have five point guards under contract? Who is the power forward of the future? What kind of team is this? A jump shooting team? A defense first team? A running team? ...and what is going to induce Rondo to re-sign with us? We won't offer him the max - or, we shouldn't at least - because he isn't worth it. He can't shoot, and so he isn't a max guy. He plays the most abundant position in the league.

But, if we lose Rondo, it's a tankapalooza again in 2015. Okay. Fine. But why? Why would we want to tank in 2015? Jahlil Okafor? So, 11 months until a 19 year old comes here to - maybe - save us? Other teams are getting so good. And then, even assuming we get a great prospect in both of the next two drafts, right in our conference are a few teams: Orlando, 76ers (but mostly the 76ers) who will be two years ahead of us with their young players.

I can't see how we are a serious EC contender until at least 2017. ...think about it: that is SUCH a long time.

Ok so 2017...there IS an end in sight  ;D

I would like a more balanced roster too but at the end of the day, I know Danny knows this and he knows this is not the roster that will raise the next banner. He is still working. Im not blindly saying I trust anything he does, but he is at least competent.

plus, the summer isnt over!