Explain to me the Love madness

[ctrey]

I will get stoned for this here but I do not want to trade for Kevin Love. I do not want to give up what we would have to get him, I just do not think he is worth it. I think he puts up inflated numbers (People already say he goes for boards over playing D) and is awful on defense.

Additionally he will want/get max money. Lets assume he continues to put up 25/12 for max dollars. That sounds great. However we have two players who are basically Love in Olynyk and Sully. I think it is crazy to pay Love 20 million per when either Sully or KO can put up 18/10 for 18 million less. I just do not see paying so much more and really crushing our cap when we have two guys that are close stats wise yet save us so much money.

Am I completely crazy?

[Lucky17]

I doubt either Sullinger or Olynyk will ever approach Love's level of production: top-5 scorer, top-5 rebounder.

But let's assume they do, for the sake of argument.

1. Would they also be guilty of putting up empty stats?
2. Would they be any better on defense than Love?
3. Assuming Love-level production, won't they eventually attract significant "Love-level" offers in free agency?

[Hawkeye199]

I think Love is our pandora's box. I am afraid of giving up  a lot of assets and being right back rebuilding soon. I think we have to have faith and do this for the right reasons. I think we really just need one more year of rebuilding and then I think we can be a serious contender.

[fairweatherfan]

Not wanting Love here isn't crazy at all, it's a pretty reasonable position that I mostly agree with.

Thinking Sully and Oly are basically as good as Love is kinda nuts, though.  Even their absolute ceiling is probably somewhere south of where Love's been for about 3 years now, let alone their actual performance.

[BigAlTheFuture]

People put TOO much faith in Sullinger and Olynyk...

[rondoallaturca]

People need to stop saying things like "we have two players who are basically Love in Olynyk and Sully". It's completely ignorant and disrespectful to Kevin Love. If Olynyk and Sully were really as great as people here make them out to be, there'd be a lot more buzz surrounding the two around the league.

[Clench123]

People put TOO much faith in Sullinger and Olynyk...

Way too much

[knuckleballer]

Yes, you are crazy if you think Sully and Olynyk are basically the same players as Kevin Love.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I will get stoned for this here but I do not want to trade for Kevin Love. I do not want to give up what we would have to get him, I just do not think he is worth it. I think he puts up inflated numbers (People already say he goes for boards over playing D) and is awful on defense.

Additionally he will want/get max money. Lets assume he continues to put up 25/12 for max dollars. That sounds great. However we have two players who are basically Love in Olynyk and Sully. I think it is crazy to pay Love 20 million per when either Sully or KO can put up 18/10 for 18 million less. I just do not see paying so much more and really crushing our cap when we have two guys that are close stats wise yet save us so much money.

Am I completely crazy?

No, you're not crazy, and I don't have a problem with your position, but I do tend to shake my head a bit when people (1) expect max-player production at rookie-scale pay; and (2) complain about Love's "inflated" rebounding numbers.

I have high hopes for KO and Sully, and if either of them could put up 18/10 a game, I'd be thrilled, but by the time they get to that point they'd likely be near the end of their rookie deals, which means Boston would have to pay a pretty penny to hang on to them, so in the end you'd just be delaying the big financial investment a few years.

I know Love's not a great defender, but he is a great rebounder. And a rebound is a rebound, and if there's a player who can grab 12–15 of those a game, I want him on my team. Unless he's pushing teammates out of the way to get those rebounds, or playing pass to himself off the backboard, I don't see how he's "padding" his stats.

[pearljammer10]

I will get stoned for this here but I do not want to trade for Kevin Love. I do not want to give up what we would have to get him, I just do not think he is worth it. I think he puts up inflated numbers (People already say he goes for boards over playing D) and is awful on defense.

Additionally he will want/get max money. Lets assume he continues to put up 25/12 for max dollars. That sounds great. However we have two players who are basically Love in Olynyk and Sully. I think it is crazy to pay Love 20 million per when either Sully or KO can put up 18/10 for 18 million less. I just do not see paying so much more and really crushing our cap when we have two guys that are close stats wise yet save us so much money.

Am I completely crazy?

No, you're not crazy, and I don't have a problem with your position, but I do tend to shake my head a bit when people (1) expect max-player production at rookie-scale pay; and (2) complain about Love's "inflated" rebounding numbers.

I have high hopes for KO and Sully, and if either of them could put up 18/10 a game, I'd be thrilled, but by the time they get to that point they'd likely be near the end of their rookie deals, which means Boston would have to pay a pretty penny to hang on to them, so in the end you'd just be delaying the big financial investment a few years.

I know Love's not a great defender, but he is a great rebounder. And a rebound is a rebound, and if there's a player who can grab 12–15 of those a game, I want him on my team. Unless he's pushing teammates out of the way to get those rebounds, or playing pass to himself off the backboard, I don't see how he's "padding" his stats.

When have KO or Sully put up averages of 18/10?

[guava_wrench]

There is an enormous difference between 25/12 and 18/10, and you are talking about guys who aren't even doing that yet.

Sully was 13/8 last season. Olynyk was 9/5.

How is it hard to understand how actual performance is more valuable than wishful thinking? You say either of these guys 'can' put up 18/10. Well, they haven't.

If you wanted to make a well-reasoned argument, you would compare Love's history to Sully's history. For example, in Love's second season, he averaged 14/9. That is similar to Sully's 13/8, though Love did it in about 3 less minutes per game.

The problem with extrapolating from early career similarities is that  there is not a uniform development arc for all players. Love has a very steep development curve, showing extreme improvement over his first 4 seasons. It would be naive to expect many players to improve at that rate, as most do not.

The 'going for numbers' argument may be valid, but it is also a convenient argument that anyone can use to support an argument because as it is just a judgment call. We can use that argument for anyone if it serves our purposes. It is also ironic to use that to put down Love while using it to support Sully and Olynyk, who played on a team much worse than Love's team. Minny have 40 wins in a far superior Western Conference, while we had 25 wins in a horrible East. Numbers on the Celtics were far more empty than numbers on Minny.

[Smokeeye123]

I will get stoned for this here but I do not want to trade for Kevin Love. I do not want to give up what we would have to get him, I just do not think he is worth it. I think he puts up inflated numbers (People already say he goes for boards over playing D) and is awful on defense.

Additionally he will want/get max money. Lets assume he continues to put up 25/12 for max dollars. That sounds great. However we have two players who are basically Love in Olynyk and Sully. I think it is crazy to pay Love 20 million per when either Sully or KO can put up 18/10 for 18 million less. I just do not see paying so much more and really crushing our cap when we have two guys that are close stats wise yet save us so much money.

Am I completely crazy?

Yes you are completely crazy. Love is a top 10 player in the entire NBA. Olynyk and Sullinger are nowhere close.

[Vermont Green]

My Explanation for the attraction to Love includes the following:

First, I don't believe that we have offered anywhere near the level of assets that have been speculated here.  I am not sure the #6 pick for example was ever on the table and I really doubt any offer included up to 4 total firsts.  So if we do trade for Love, I believe that the trade will be balanced.

Second, the Celtics would rather "build now" rather than just draft their way back.  If you look around, we are not getting LeBron and we are not getting Carmelo.  It would be unrealistic for DA to think otherwise.  That leaves us in the Love, Bosh, tier of players.  Love is our best shot by far to get back into contention right away.  Rondo-Love-Green plus a bunch of young potential is a good solid start.

If we fail to get Love or another comparable player, we can always fall back on the drastic rebuild path.  By that I mean trade Rondo and really bottom out, draft as best we can and go into the FA market in a year or two when we will have a team with nothing but rookie contracts and maybe Avery Bradley.

Seems like a very reasonable approach to me.

[Jailan34]

Now that we won't be able to get someone to pair with Love and Rondo, as Melo isn't considering us, I am out on Love madness. Just getting Love alone would make for a good and entertaining mid seed playoff team. Which is nice, but just not for me when there is no room for growth.

Now if our players develop enough to push us into the playoffs then I'd be on board, but two players who have hit their ceilings to max out at a mid round team doesn't excite me or lead anywhere.

[Smokeeye123]

Now that we won't be able to get someone to pair with Love and Rondo, as Melo isn't considering us, I am out on Love madness. Just getting Love alone would make for a good and entertaining mid seed playoff team. Which is nice, but just not for me when there is no room for growth.

Now if our players develop enough to push us into the playoffs then I'd be on board, but two players who have hit their ceilings to max out at a mid round team doesn't excite me or lead anywhere.

Why are you under the belief that Ainge will stop trying to add another great player after we would theoretically trade for Love?