Was Big Al really that much better then Sully?

[SHAQATTACK]

Right now I d say Big Al..was better...

But....to be fair Sully has been hurt on and off so much...

Like to see what Sully does with his body and how his game improves next year...full healthy year

[kozlodoev]

As for Sullinger, he is undoubtedly the better passer, and his knack for rebounding certainly trumps Al's, but he doesn't play near the basket enough for us to have enough data to do a fair comparison.

Before he messed up his knee, Jeffersion was a 20-22 ppg and 10-12 rpg type of guy in Minnesota. That was in his first two seasons with the team, when he was just 23 and 24, respectively. He was at least as good a rebounder as Sullinger, an automatic offensive player, immensely more athletic, and didn't come that much extra pounds or a bad back.

Sure, he's also a walking example of how one injury can change everything, but that's a different discussion altogether.

[Celtics4ever]

Al is a better post player, neither is a good defender or can block shots.   Sully is a better on the boards and a better passer.     One thing that makes Al better, in my mind, is that he knew his limitations and doesn't try to do things he is not good at like shoot threes.

[Beat LA]

As for Sullinger, he is undoubtedly the better passer, and his knack for rebounding certainly trumps Al's, but he doesn't play near the basket enough for us to have enough data to do a fair comparison.

Before he messed up his knee, Jeffersion was a 20-22 ppg and 10-12 rpg type of guy in Minnesota. That was in his first two seasons with the team, when he was just 23 and 24, respectively. He was at least as good a rebounder as Sullinger, an automatic offensive player, immensely more athletic, and didn't come that much extra pounds or a bad back.

Sure, he's also a walking example of how one injury can change everything, but that's a different discussion altogether.

Yeah, Al was almost unstoppable offensively, but I don't think he had the gift for rebounding that Sullinger does, which is even more impressive when you consider the difference in athleticism, which in my opinion, isn't as great as what you're suggesting, but maybe I'm  not remembering something correctly.  It wasn't like Al was on the level of Josh Smith in terms of athleticism, but yes, he was pretty good in that department.  Was Al a better prospect in 06-07 than Sully is today?  Uh, yeah, but we'll see what happens down the road - assuming, of course, that Sullinger is still on the team.

[Vox_Populi]

The good news is that KG was also that much better than Love. So maybe it's proportional. 

[kozlodoev]

As for Sullinger, he is undoubtedly the better passer, and his knack for rebounding certainly trumps Al's, but he doesn't play near the basket enough for us to have enough data to do a fair comparison.

Before he messed up his knee, Jeffersion was a 20-22 ppg and 10-12 rpg type of guy in Minnesota. That was in his first two seasons with the team, when he was just 23 and 24, respectively. He was at least as good a rebounder as Sullinger, an automatic offensive player, immensely more athletic, and didn't come that much extra pounds or a bad back.

Sure, he's also a walking example of how one injury can change everything, but that's a different discussion altogether.

Yeah, Al was almost unstoppable offensively, but I don't think he had the gift for rebounding that Sullinger does, which is even more impressive when you consider the difference in athleticism, which in my opinion, isn't as great as what you're suggesting, but maybe I'm  not remembering something correctly.  It wasn't like Al was on the level of Josh Smith in terms of athleticism, but yes, he was pretty good in that department.  Was Al a better prospect in 06-07 than Sully is today?  Uh, yeah, but we'll see what happens down the road - assuming, of course, that Sullinger is still on the team.

It's not that Jefferson was a Josh Smith -- but Sullinger is spectacularly bad. He can barely elevate, and looks like he's stuck in molasses when he has to move from side to side. Perhaps I'm overstating the difference a bit, but to me it isn't close.

You're right that we'll see what happens down the road -- but I'm not overly optimistic for an overweight big man with documented back issues -- no matter how talented. I'd rather cash my chips while I can.

[D.o.s.]

The good news is that KG was also that much better than Love. So maybe it's proportional. 

That's a pretty apt comparison, as far as what anyone knew about Al Jefferson in 2007. We always expected him to become the player he was this year in Charlotte, essentially -- an offensive corner stone who could probably be hidden on defense.

Most of us just thought he'd get there faster.

[kraidstar]

If were gonna look at stats you should include shooting percentage, bc thats the big difference if you ask me.

Sullinger 42.7%  Al Jefferson 51.4%

A power forward shooting 42% is pretty bad

exactly. also, al is taller, longer, more athletic, and better-conditioned. sully has a higher BB IQ, but he needs to get into shape. if he can slim down and quicken up, this might be a closer comparison.

[BballTim]

Comparing stats is missing the point. At the time of the trade, big al was perceived to be a vastly superior prospect than sully today. No comparison. Al was widely believed (rightly or wrongly) to be a lock for 20-10 production and some felt he had the best low post moves in the league. If things broke right, he was a superstar big man you could build around. 

Now in retrospect we know that al capped out as a 20-10 guy and didn't reach superstardom

On the flip side, Sullinger isn't even widely regarded as a future starter. You'll see several folks saying he's a future role player. Glen Davis with the brain or Ryan Gomes.  Sure, some (in boston) think he has star potential... But the perception of him is nowhere near big al in 07.

  Big Al was a year older and a year more experienced than Sully was last year. If you compare Sully after his 2nd year to Al after his 2nd year you'd probably give the edge to Sully. Pretty much everything you're saying about Sully was said about Jefferson after his 2nd year, I can remember arguing with people who assured me Al would never start ahead of players like Ryan Gomes (whoever's comparing Sully to Gomes would fit in well with those posters if they aren't the same ones).

  Just to further my point, in Al's first 2 years he played a total of 130 games with 8 starts. He scored 10 or more points a total of 38 times, 20 or more once, and had 10 or more rebounds 10 times. In Sully's first 2 years he played 119 games, starting 49. He scored 10 or more points 64 times including 15 games of 20 or more points and 10 or more rebounds 31 times. Again, Al broke out in his 3rd year (which Sully hasn't played yet) but Sully's play in his first 2 years dwarfed Al's. What this means to the other GMs is anyone's guess but it's not as cut and dried as people think it is.

[D.o.s.]

Based on the tone of the thread I think we're comparing them almost solely around when they were both prospects that might be bound for Minnesota.

[hwangjini_1]

As for Sullinger, he is undoubtedly the better passer, and his knack for rebounding certainly trumps Al's, but he doesn't play near the basket enough for us to have enough data to do a fair comparison.

Before he messed up his knee, Jeffersion was a 20-22 ppg and 10-12 rpg type of guy in Minnesota. That was in his first two seasons with the team, when he was just 23 and 24, respectively. He was at least as good a rebounder as Sullinger, an automatic offensive player, immensely more athletic, and didn't come that much extra pounds or a bad back.

Sure, he's also a walking example of how one injury can change everything, but that's a different discussion altogether.

Ha. Sounds as if al was Kevin love.

[bruinsandceltics]

Sullinger absolutely has the ability to match Al Jefferson's production in this league.

1. He needs to clean up the weight issue...it's time to mature and realize that this is a job and this job requires great shape and a lean body. If he doesn't get this part down he doesn't have any chance.

2. He needs to start playing inside more. Post up more, back to the basket more. It doesn't mean no jump shots or threes. But certainly less of them.

[Beat LA]

As for Sullinger, he is undoubtedly the better passer, and his knack for rebounding certainly trumps Al's, but he doesn't play near the basket enough for us to have enough data to do a fair comparison.

Before he messed up his knee, Jeffersion was a 20-22 ppg and 10-12 rpg type of guy in Minnesota. That was in his first two seasons with the team, when he was just 23 and 24, respectively. He was at least as good a rebounder as Sullinger, an automatic offensive player, immensely more athletic, and didn't come that much extra pounds or a bad back.

Sure, he's also a walking example of how one injury can change everything, but that's a different discussion altogether.

Yeah, Al was almost unstoppable offensively, but I don't think he had the gift for rebounding that Sullinger does, which is even more impressive when you consider the difference in athleticism, which in my opinion, isn't as great as what you're suggesting, but maybe I'm  not remembering something correctly.  It wasn't like Al was on the level of Josh Smith in terms of athleticism, but yes, he was pretty good in that department.  Was Al a better prospect in 06-07 than Sully is today?  Uh, yeah, but we'll see what happens down the road - assuming, of course, that Sullinger is still on the team.

It's not that Jefferson was a Josh Smith -- but Sullinger is spectacularly bad. He can barely elevate, and looks like he's stuck in molasses when he has to move from side to side. Perhaps I'm overstating the difference a bit, but to me it isn't close.

You're right that we'll see what happens down the road -- but I'm not overly optimistic for an overweight big man with documented back issues -- no matter how talented. I'd rather cash my chips while I can.

If Sully's weight is going to be a big-babyish problem for him during his career, then we're obviously going to have a problem.  True, I'd rather have a guy without any back/weight issues, but the surgery was a success and he's reportedly working on his body, so that could improve his athleticism, but you never know.  I think the point here is that we aren't going to get a lot for a trade that features Sullinger as the prize, with or without draft picks, unlike the deal for KG that was centered around Jefferson, but we'll see.  Personally, I don't like throwing away draft picks because that always seems to come back to haunt us down the road, but, on the other hand, I don't trust that Ainge will get the best players, which is why he tried to acquire as many selections as possible.  It's his dirty little secret that as long as he has an abundance of picks, he won't strike out on all of them, but I think it's pretty obvious that he'd rather trade those picks to a team that actually knows how to scout, select, and develop talent for a known commodity than have to do that himself.  I just don't think he's nearly as good at drafting players as most people think he is, but again, that's just my opinion.

[kozlodoev]

Personally, I don't like throwing away draft picks because that always seems to come back to haunt us down the road, but, on the other hand, I don't trust that Ainge will get the best players, which is why he tried to acquire as many selections as possible.

Trading picks for Love is not "throwing away draft picks". Throwing away draft picks is tacking them on to Gerald Wallace to entice someone to take his obligation.

I don't see how the number of picks is related to "trusting Ainge". He acquired picks because he could, so that he can trade them when someone becomes available, and because you don't pay salary to draft picks (before you draft them, that is).

[LarBrd33]

Comparing stats is missing the point. At the time of the trade, big al was perceived to be a vastly superior prospect than sully today. No comparison. Al was widely believed (rightly or wrongly) to be a lock for 20-10 production and some felt he had the best low post moves in the league. If things broke right, he was a superstar big man you could build around. 

Now in retrospect we know that al capped out as a 20-10 guy and didn't reach superstardom

On the flip side, Sullinger isn't even widely regarded as a future starter. You'll see several folks saying he's a future role player. Glen Davis with the brain or Ryan Gomes.  Sure, some (in boston) think he has star potential... But the perception of him is nowhere near big al in 07.

  Big Al was a year older and a year more experienced than Sully was last year. If you compare Sully after his 2nd year to Al after his 2nd year you'd probably give the edge to Sully. Pretty much everything you're saying about Sully was said about Jefferson after his 2nd year, I can remember arguing with people who assured me Al would never start ahead of players like Ryan Gomes (whoever's comparing Sully to Gomes would fit in well with those posters if they aren't the same ones).

  Just to further my point, in Al's first 2 years he played a total of 130 games with 8 starts. He scored 10 or more points a total of 38 times, 20 or more once, and had 10 or more rebounds 10 times. In Sully's first 2 years he played 119 games, starting 49. He scored 10 or more points 64 times including 15 games of 20 or more points and 10 or more rebounds 31 times. Again, Al broke out in his 3rd year (which Sully hasn't played yet) but Sully's play in his first 2 years dwarfed Al's. What this means to the other GMs is anyone's guess but it's not as cut and dried as people think it is.

I can always count on you to bump my posts.

So I guess you are saying that since Sully is a year behind the Al trajectory, there is hope for his break out season next year?

Sure.  I guess.  Pretty much every young player in the league COULD break out in Year 3... doesn't mean it's going to happen.  Plenty of Ike Diogus.  Hometown fans say they are future stars... outside world ignores em... and they fail to get there.

Currently, the perception of Sully as a prospect is nowhere near the level of Big Al in 07.  Sounds like we are agreeing on that.  Next season if the magical basketball fairies grant our homer wishes ("alls he gotta do is lose weight like kevin love!... hella simple!"), maybe Sully takes a leap.

Right now, the #6 pick is at the center of any prospective trade.  Everything else is roulette wheel spins and role players.