So do people still think Lebron has passed Bird????

[MBunge]

At least the other recent greats before him (Bird, Magic, Jordon, Hakeem, Duncan, etc..) all had to win a title before the adulation of the league and media. 

Honest question, are you old enough to remember Jordan's early career?  Because it was pretty much the 80s media equivalent of LeBron's early career - tons of hype and adulation and highlight clips and commercials with the hardcore fans saying "he hasn't won anything yet, and he never will because he cares more about being a "star" than a winner."

I AM old enough to remember Jordan's early career and there's very little comparison to LeBron.   In fairness, a lot of the difference has to do with how the media has changed and maybe Jordan would be treated the same if he was around today.  But NO ONE was proclaiming Jordan an all-time great BEFORE he started winning titles.  NO ONE looked at Jordan and said it was only a matter of time before he won a ring.  And while LeBron has gotten some criticism, it's NOTHING like what Jordan received before he finally won a championship.  The national media is full of people who slurp LeBron 24/7 to an extent that Jordan didn't get until he came back from his first retirement.

I'm trying to imagine what the media reaction would have been like if Jordan had played and looked the way LeBron did against Boston in his last playoffs in Cleveland and against Dallas and now San Antonio in the Finals.  The closest I can come is when he lost in the playoffs to Orlando and nobody got to upset about that because Jordan was returning after a nearly year-and-a-half retirement.

LeBron is great but it looks like the argument that he deserves to be alongside Jordan and Russell may be coming to an end.  There's no shame in that and no need to rewrite history in his defense.

Mike

[GreenWarrior]

LeBron is great but it looks like the argument that he deserves to be alongside Jordan and Russell looks like it may be coming to an end.
Mike

that won't happen. everyone that has prematurely put him in that class won't stop just because. they were foolish to do so from the start and if they stop now then they'll look even more foolish.

as for how Jordan and how he was perceived back then and the comparisons. they aren't even close. no one anointed Jordan as the messiah or "king" or predicted he would win 6 titles. they said he was an extremely talented scorer coming out of college - that's it.

Jordan didn't start to receive the adulation till the bulls beat LA. was he hyped by nike? sure. but never as the greatest of all time before ever doing anything in the NBA. HE EARNED IT! 

I've said before a lot of the hype surrounding Lebron coming into the NBA was and is not his fault. but what he did with it is.

[bknova]

LeBron is great but it looks like the argument that he deserves to be alongside Jordan and Russell looks like it may be coming to an end.
Mike

that won't happen. everyone that has prematurely put him in that class won't stop just because. they were foolish to do so from the start and if they stop now then they'll look even more foolish.

as for how Jordan and how he was perceived back then and the comparisons. they aren't even close. no one anointed Jordan as the messiah or "king" or predicted he would win 6 titles. they said he was an extremely talented scorer coming out of college - that's it.

Jordan didn't start to receive the adulation till the bulls beat LA. was he hyped by nike? sure. but never as the greatest of all time before ever doing anything in the NBA. HE EARNED IT! 

I've said before a lot of the hype surrounding Lebron coming into the NBA was and is not his fault. but what he did with it is.

Being a brat, and constantly saying stupid shizz is absolutely his fault.

[Waew]

Look I dislike LeBron as much as the next guy, but this game isn't on him. His teammates just didn't perform.

You mean the teammates he hand picked to try to weezle his way to greatness?  It's on him.

We need to stop the rewriting of history.  LeBron went to Miami because he thought it would be easy to win championships.  Almost everybody thought this team could or would be a super team that road roughshod over the rest of the league.  Instead they've been "merely" great and not anything special when compared to other title winners.  If LeBron doesn't live up to the standard that he believed in and helped set, no one should make excuses for him.

Mike

exactly. Lebron said they would win at least 8 championships. Well they're about to lose as a team again and he's already 30.

[moiso]

Look I dislike LeBron as much as the next guy, but this game isn't on him. His teammates just didn't perform.

You mean the teammates he hand picked to try to weezle his way to greatness?  It's on him.

We need to stop the rewriting of history.  LeBron went to Miami because he thought it would be easy to win championships.  Almost everybody thought this team could or would be a super team that road roughshod over the rest of the league.  Instead they've been "merely" great and not anything special when compared to other title winners.  If LeBron doesn't live up to the standard that he believed in and helped set, no one should make excuses for him.

Mike

exactly. Lebron said they would win at least 8 championships. Well they're about to lose as a team again and he's already 30.

If not for the Ray Allen miracle last year, Lebron and the Heat would have only one title and would not be looked at nearly as kindly in history. 

[csfansince60s]

Not me

Same.  It's not even close.  The approach to the game is so incredibly different.  After watching tonight's game, what astonishes me is how mentally drained he looked, especially when people are comparing him to Larry.  Lebrick was never really into it, in game 3 or 4.  Where was the intensity, the competitiveness, the leadership?  Bird made the finals 4 straight years as well, and yet even in 1987, after coming off back to back grueling 7 game series, he gave everything he had.  That team couldn't field 5 healthy players, McHale had the fracture, and they were facing that loaded Lakers squad, but there was no quit in that team, and that's largely, if not solely, due to Bird's leadership.  If they didn't get screwed by double free throws and the fact that that ball went off of Thompson and not McHale, that battered team almost tied that series.  Even Larry's shot at the buzzer missed by a millimeter.  Yeah, he was probably tired, but you know what, he kept fighting, and fighting, and fighting; and yet when I watched Lebron in these past 2 contests, it almost seemed like, as soon as things started to get tough, he and the rest of those clowns wanted no part of it.  That's not the mentality of a champion, imho. 

On another front, if anyone on this thread hasn't visited one entitled Calling All Music Lovers yet, http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=70754.0, I'd strongly encourage you to do so.  Wait until you hear her sing!

You are the only person I ever met-- who agrees with me---that the ball was knocked out of bounds by M.Thompson....Magic would have never made or took that junior sky hook-if they had replay back in 1987...!!!   That C's team had ZERO quit in them...they deserved better.

+1 to both you guys.

I was in the overhang in the corner to the right of the Cs bench, Section 77, Row D Seats 1 and 2 (Had season's from 1979 to 1990).

Saw it firsthand the same way. Killed me.....but at least we lost to a Championship team in their prime.

[Moranis]

Look I dislike LeBron as much as the next guy, but this game isn't on him. His teammates just didn't perform.

You mean the teammates he hand picked to try to weezle his way to greatness?  It's on him.

We need to stop the rewriting of history.  LeBron went to Miami because he thought it would be easy to win championships.  Almost everybody thought this team could or would be a super team that road roughshod over the rest of the league.  Instead they've been "merely" great and not anything special when compared to other title winners.  If LeBron doesn't live up to the standard that he believed in and helped set, no one should make excuses for him.

Mike

exactly. Lebron said they would win at least 8 championships. Well they're about to lose as a team again and he's already 30.

that is not what he said at all.

[csfansince60s]

I don't even think LeBron has passed Bird in bathroom breaks....I think....

+1..Oh, he already has....the day after he was "cramped" and couldn't play, he was complaining about not getting any sleep that night cause they pumped him with so much fluid, he must've gone to the "restroom" 10-11 times.....shut-up. Lebroid, you whiny little other name for a female dog.

[quidinqui33]

[/quote]If not for the Ray Allen miracle last year, Lebron and the Heat would have only one title and would not be looked at nearly as kindly in history.
[/quote]

Also, don't forget about our Celtics who with Jeff Green out with a bad heart, Shaq retired one year early, Jermain out with broken wrist, Avery out with two bad shoulders, and Ray playing on bone spurs had that heat team on the brink of elimination!

Also factor in the Derek Rose injury and the impact that has had on the east.

The media gets all giddy and always wants to put this Heat team as one of the best ever.  The fact is they are not.  They are really good, as they should be, but they are not one of the greatest.  I would take the 80's Celtics and Lakers, the 90's bulls, and the 1999-2014 Spurs any day!

And lebron better than Bird.  In one on one.  Yes.  NBA basketball...give me Bird any day, all day! 

[Moranis]

Also, don't forget about our Celtics who with Jeff Green out with a bad heart, Shaq retired one year early, Jermain out with broken wrist, Avery out with two bad shoulders, and Ray playing on bone spurs had that heat team on the brink of elimination!

Also factor in the Derek Rose injury and the impact that has had on the east.

The media gets all giddy and always wants to put this Heat team as one of the best ever.  The fact is they are not.  They are really good, as they should be, but they are not one of the greatest.  I would take the 80's Celtics and Lakers, the 90's bulls, and the 1999-2014 Spurs any day!

And lebron better than Bird.  In one on one.  Yes.  NBA basketball...give me Bird any day, all day!

The Heat team that beat Oklahoma City was a pretty darn elite team.  But that was back when Wade was still a top 10 player, Bosh actually looked like he cared, James wasn't worn out, and Haslem and Battier weren't beaten down.  Even last years Heat team was significantly better than this years team.  Wade is a shell of his former self and Bosh is so inconsistent I just don't know what is up with him.  Battier looks like he can barely walk at times.  They are just old, injured, or both and as a result James has just gotten tired both physically and mentally. 

[Celtics4ever]

I think they miss Mike Miller....

[fairweatherfan]

At least the other recent greats before him (Bird, Magic, Jordon, Hakeem, Duncan, etc..) all had to win a title before the adulation of the league and media. 

Honest question, are you old enough to remember Jordan's early career?  Because it was pretty much the 80s media equivalent of LeBron's early career - tons of hype and adulation and highlight clips and commercials with the hardcore fans saying "he hasn't won anything yet, and he never will because he cares more about being a "star" than a winner."

I AM old enough to remember Jordan's early career and there's very little comparison to LeBron.   In fairness, a lot of the difference has to do with how the media has changed and maybe Jordan would be treated the same if he was around today. But NO ONE was proclaiming Jordan an all-time great BEFORE he started winning titles.  NO ONE looked at Jordan and said it was only a matter of time before he won a ring.  And while LeBron has gotten some criticism, it's NOTHING like what Jordan received before he finally won a championship.  The national media is full of people who slurp LeBron 24/7 to an extent that Jordan didn't get until he came back from his first retirement.

If you want to say LeBron got more hype, sure, I agree, but that's mainly because there's a lot more media now - the most extreme statements are always going to be more extreme with so many more voices out there.  When Jordan came out the only 24-7 sports coverage in the country was ESPN, and they were a lot smaller than they are today.

But I strongly disagree with the bolded part - Jordan was hyped up as a budding all-time great well before he even came close to winning a ring.  I remember Isiah Thomas leading a freezeout in the 1985 All-Star game because veteran players resented how much hype and endorsement money Jordan was already getting as a rookie.  I remember being furious when Sports Illustrated was mentioning Jordan in the same breath as Magic + Bird before he'd even gotten out of the first round.  I remember an article in Basketball Digest in 1988 claiming Jordan was clearly the best individual player ("individual" was the word usually used to cover up for the lack of team success) in league history because he was the first guy to win MVP and DPOY in the same season.  I remember being doubly annoyed when Hakeem did the same thing a few years later and no one made the same comparison. 

There was plenty of gushing over Jordan before he won anything.  It wasn't as constant because there was a lot less media around, and he deserved it more than LeBron because he wound up legitimately on the short list for greatest player ever, but it was absolutely there.

LeBron is great but it looks like the argument that he deserves to be alongside Jordan and Russell may be coming to an end.  There's no shame in that and no need to rewrite history in his defense.

Agree with the first bit - when LeBron came into the league I thought he had a real shot to be perhaps the best player ever, or at least top 5.  Now I think he'll be remembered more like an Oscar Robertson - an all-time great with eye-popping stats, but not quite great enough to be in the conversation for best ever.

[slamtheking]

At least the other recent greats before him (Bird, Magic, Jordon, Hakeem, Duncan, etc..) all had to win a title before the adulation of the league and media. 

Honest question, are you old enough to remember Jordan's early career?  Because it was pretty much the 80s media equivalent of LeBron's early career - tons of hype and adulation and highlight clips and commercials with the hardcore fans saying "he hasn't won anything yet, and he never will because he cares more about being a "star" than a winner."

honest answer - I was following the NBA beginning with Bird and Magic's rookie year so yes, I saw all of Jordan's. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm older than you (by more than I'd care to admit).

For his draft class, he was considered a top prospect but Olajuwon was the crown jewel of the draft class.  for all Jordan's scoring exploits, he was only considered a great player but on a lesser tier than Bird and Magic until he finally won.  I don't recall anything about people saying he'll never win a title because he only cared about being a 'star'  the issues I recall at the time was that he had no supporting cast and he needed to expand his game beyond scoring.  until he won, he was not the face of the league-->viewed in the same light as Bernard King or Dominique Wilkins. 

Lebron was hyped from high school (if not earlier).  much different.  he came into the league when players were hyped more than the teams.  in the 80's it was a lot of Celtic vs Sixers vs Lakers rivalries and Detroit was primarily the collective Bad Boys rather than having just one of them hyped.

I do agree with what others have added that the Nike deal did a lot to market him as a player and icon. 

[MBunge]

There was plenty of gushing over Jordan before he won anything.  It wasn't as constant because there was a lot less media around, and he deserved it more than LeBron because he wound up legitimately on the short list for greatest player ever, but it was absolutely there.

You're probably right and I'm overstating things because the hype is so much more omnipresent, but I do think there's a big difference.  The media wasn't quite as fannish in their coverage of Jordan in the early years as they've been with LeBron.  Again, that might just be a change in media culture.  I don't think Jordan really became "bigger than the game" until his first retirement and return, whereas LeBron has been his own brand since high school.

Mike

[kiwiceltic]

Not even close.
I'm too young to remember Bird through the 80s, but i've watched a lot of those older Celtics games and the one thing that really sticks out and sets Bird (and others) apart from Lebron is Bird never really gave up. Lebron struggles when it gets tough, Bird thrived on that type of environment.
Will that stop Lebron becoming top 10 all time? Probably not, but it will stop him being mentioned along with Bird, Russell, Magic, Kareem and Jordan as the best of all time.