Chad Ford Mock 7.0 today Gordon and Porzingis

[NorthernLightning]

Claiming that any college player can ever amount to more than jack squat seems to be taboo around here. Because it hasn't happened yet and "I watched very little college ball but..." is the motto.

Pippen is obviously a best case scenario, but Gordon has just as much versatility as Pippen did, since Gordon is taller and stronger and will just keep getting stronger for years.

Look at today's biggest stars, most of them seem to be close to Gordon's size: Lebron, KD, Carmelo, PGeorge, Blake, Love, Aldridge, Wiggins, JParker, etc.

Half the All Star rosters are guys between 6'8 and 6'10, right in Gordon's wheelhouse.

We already have Avery Bradley (hopefully he re-signs), who is about the ideal size you could want for that other category of NBA stars, the (often plus-size) PG/combo guard, like Rose, Westbrook, CP3, Wall, Wade, Parker, DWill, etc.

Between Bradley and Gordon, our ability to contain a team's first option and second option would be outstanding against most matchups.

[Evantime34]

Gordon is an elite level athlete. But he has only decent rebounding skills and only decent handles with a poor outside shot. And by poor I mean atrocious.

If he could ever get to the point of being able to hit 3 pointers at a 35% clip for 2-3 3PTA per game, find 3-4 spots on the floor where he can hit a 2 pt shot at a 50% rate, and shoot FTs at a 75% rate, there is no doubt the kid could have enormous upside.

But if he can't he will be a role player, plain and simple. That's my opinion and I think that's pretty well informed having watched Gordon about a half dozen times last year and read a lot on him and seen all the you tube and draft express vids posted on this site.

My opinion is, it would be just a lot harder for Gordon to become the shooter he has to to be a great player than a player like Vonleh, who is bigger and when he fills out will play a position of need for the Celtics, center, will be to learn a system and become a better all around defender when he isn't already an atrocious defender or lacking in defensive skills like NL is suggesting.

For that reason I would take Vonleh over Gordon.

Also, at a position of need is Marcus Smart who I think will become a premiere guard defender, has above average PG skills, a streaky ability to score from outside and who has a lot of D Wade in him. I would take Smart over Gordon.

I also have been a large advocate of Tyler Ennis and think he will be one of the very best players to come out of this draft once 5-6 years have passed. The kid has Westbrook size, a Rondo play making, running a team mentality and plus shooting and passing skills as well as an ability to play clutch in the toughest situations.

I also like Garry Harris and feel he could be a lot like Bradley Beal and that he has that type of upside.

Those are guys I have talked about, though maybe Harris less than the others, and have suggested that the C's go after those players.

But given my long standing dislike for young players, something that is well known on this site, I would absolutely rather trade both first rounders this year for an established star as I believe winning basketball starts with established, experienced stars that know how to play winning basketball.

All if this wouldn't be known by NL as instead of friendly discourse and conversation he instantly goes into swarmy, passive aggressive insulting mode and would rather take the conversation into an immature "My opinion is better than yours" direction rather than ask polite questions regarding why people might disagree with him and respectfully discussing the difference of opinions.

I disagree with you on these points:
1. Gordon has elite rebounding skills for his position. He lead his team in defensive rebounding percentage despite spending the majority of his time (before their PF got hurt) defending the wing. Being able to guard on the perimeter, close out on shots without fouling and then get the rebounds is some kind of feat.
2. I disagree about the handles but there really isn't a metric to prove you wrong.
3. His shot isn't great but 35% is more decent than atrocious. I think he will never be an elite shooter who can hit shots with a hand in his face but he will be able to knock down open shots at the NBA level and with everything else he brings to the game hitting open shots will be enough
4. Why does Gordon need to be a good shooter to be more than a role player? I think he will bring elite defense, rebounding, and shot creation from the 3 spot. I really like the Pippen comparison (look up Pippen's college numbers and he shot less than 10% in his first two years from 3)
5. I'm worried about Vonleh's athleticism. He tested very well at the combine but he didn't really show it that much in games.
6. Not an Ennis fan, I think he's solid and a good player to fit around elite talent to facilitate but I don't see him having the quickness to get to the hole in the NBA or defend elite pgs.
7. I like Harris but I don't think he can shoot quite as well as Beal nor does he have the size and I am warry of bringing in another combo guard onto the team.
8. I much prefer Love to making our 6th pick, I much prefer Asik to making our 17th pick, but other than Love I can't think of a guy on the market that I would trade our 6th for.

Here is a good post on Gordon http://deanondraft.com/type/aside/

[Evantime34]

Claiming that any college player can ever amount to more than jack squat seems to be taboo around here. Because it hasn't happened yet and "I watched very little college ball but..." is the motto.

Pippen is obviously a best case scenario, but Gordon has just as much versatility as Pippen did, since Gordon is taller and stronger and will just keep getting stronger for years.

Look at today's biggest stars, most of them seem to be close to Gordon's size: Lebron, KD, Carmelo, PGeorge, Blake, Love, Aldridge, Wiggins, JParker, etc.

Half the All Star rosters are guys between 6'8 and 6'10, right in Gordon's wheelhouse.

We already have Avery Bradley (hopefully he re-signs), who is about the ideal size you could want for that other category of NBA stars, the (often plus-size) PG/combo guard, like Rose, Westbrook, CP3, Wall, Wade, Parker, DWill, etc.

Between Bradley and Gordon, our ability to contain a team's first option and second option would be outstanding against most matchups.

I completely agree with you. However, some of your posts come off antagonistic. When that happens, people don't completely read your posts and pick out bits and pieces they disagree with. IF you keep it civil you will do a much better job getting your point across.

[NorthernLightning]

Have you ever been right but been backed into a corner by a bunch of people who don't know what they're talking about, but feed off each other?

[BballTim]

We can agree that the NBA is full of elite athletes. Given that premise:

Do you agree or disagree with the statement that a lack of defense can be fixed faster by hard work than a lack of shooting?

Like I said, you don't even understand. You can't turn a Doug McDermott into Scottie Pippen, on any timeline. He'll be lucky to even be a slightly below average defender with all the work in the world, and I say that as a big McDermott fan.

  You can't turn a poor defender into a Scottie Pippen, just like you can't turn a poor shooter into a Bird/Nash/Price/Allen/name your all time great.

But Gordon has a very real chance of being a dominant defender like a bigger and stronger Scottie Pippen, another guy who wasn't known for his jump shot percentages.

  I watched very little college ball but I can still comfortably claim that Gordon's chances of being a dominant defender like a bigger, stronger Pippen are remote at best. Pippen was 1st team all defense and was one of the best defensive small forwards ever. Claiming that someone who's never played a game in the nba has a very real chance of defending at that level is silly.

A bigger and strong Scottie Pippen is ridiculous, but similar to Scottie Pippen is not.

If you look at what Pippen did in college Gordon has outpaced him at the same age.

  I'll go out on a limb and say that Gordon isn't the first player to outpace Pippen's college career.

[Evantime34]

Have you ever been right but been backed into a corner by a bunch of people who don't know what they're talking about, but feed off each other?

You don't get out of the corner by antagonizing them. You convince them respectfully of how you never should have been in the corner in the first place.

Since you are a Gordon fan check out the link I posted earlier.

[NorthernLightning]

Take a look at the All Star rosters from this past year. Between Gordon and Green guarding the big ones, and Bradley and Rondo guarding the small ones, we'd have an excellent defensive core at the most important positions.

7   * Carmelo Anthony (Knicks)   F   6-8   230   05/29/84   Syracuse/USA
24   * Paul George (Pacers)   F   6-9   220   05/02/90   Fresno State/USA
6   * LeBron James (Heat)   F   6-8   250   12/30/84   St. Vincent-St. Mary HS (OH)/USA
2   * Kyrie Irving (Cavaliers)   G   6-3   193   03/23/92   Duke/USA
3   * Dwyane Wade (Heat)   G   6-4   220   01/17/82   Marquette/USA
1   Chris Bosh (Heat)   F/C   6-11   235   03/24/84   Georgia Tech/USA
10   # DeMar DeRozan (Raptors)   G   6-7   216   08/07/89   USC/USA
55   Roy Hibbert (Pacers)   C   7-2   290   12/11/86   Georgetown/USA
7   Joe Johnson (Nets)   G   6-7   240   06/29/81   Arkansas/USA
4   # Paul Millsap (Hawks)   F   6-8   253   02/10/85   Louisiana Tech/USA
13   Joakim Noah (Bulls)   C   6-11   232   02/25/85   Florida/USA
2   # John Wall (Wizards)   G   6-4   195   09/06/90   Kentucky/USA
Head Coach: Frank Vogel (Pacers)
NO.   PLAYER (TEAM)   POS.   HT.   WT.   BIRTHDATE   FROM
35   * Kevin Durant (Thunder)   F   6-9   240   09/29/88   Texas/USA
32   * Blake Griffin (Clippers)   F   6-10   251   03/16/89   Oklahoma/USA
42   * Kevin Love (Timberwolves)   F   6-10   243   09/07/88   UCLA/USA
24   *^ Kobe Bryant (Lakers)   G   6-6   205   08/23/78   Lower Merion HS (PA)/USA
30   *# Stephen Curry (Warriors)   G   6-3   185   03/14/88   Davidson College/USA
12   LaMarcus Aldridge (Blazers)   F   6-11   240   07/19/85   Texas/USA
23   # Anthony Davis (Pelicans)   F/C   6-10   220   03/11/93   Kentucky/USA
13   James Harden (Rockets)   G   6-5   220   08/26/89   Arizona State/USA
12   Dwight Howard (Rockets)   C   6-11   265   12/08/85   SW Atlanta Christian Aca./USA
0   # Damian Lillard (Blazers)   G   6-3   195   07/05/90   Weber State/USA
41   Dirk Nowitzki (Mavericks)   F   7-0   245   06/19/78   DJK Wurzburg/Germany
9   Tony Parker (Spurs)   G   6-2   185   05/17/82   Paris BR/France
3   Chris Paul (Clippers)   G   6-0   175   05/06/85   Wake Forest/USA

[Evantime34]

We can agree that the NBA is full of elite athletes. Given that premise:

Do you agree or disagree with the statement that a lack of defense can be fixed faster by hard work than a lack of shooting?

Like I said, you don't even understand. You can't turn a Doug McDermott into Scottie Pippen, on any timeline. He'll be lucky to even be a slightly below average defender with all the work in the world, and I say that as a big McDermott fan.

  You can't turn a poor defender into a Scottie Pippen, just like you can't turn a poor shooter into a Bird/Nash/Price/Allen/name your all time great.

But Gordon has a very real chance of being a dominant defender like a bigger and stronger Scottie Pippen, another guy who wasn't known for his jump shot percentages.

  I watched very little college ball but I can still comfortably claim that Gordon's chances of being a dominant defender like a bigger, stronger Pippen are remote at best. Pippen was 1st team all defense and was one of the best defensive small forwards ever. Claiming that someone who's never played a game in the nba has a very real chance of defending at that level is silly.

A bigger and strong Scottie Pippen is ridiculous, but similar to Scottie Pippen is not.

If you look at what Pippen did in college Gordon has outpaced him at the same age.

  I'll go out on a limb and say that Gordon isn't the first player to outpace Pippen's college career.

All I'm trying to say is that Gordon has the potential to become Scottie Pippen due to his defensive metrics, similar length, ability to guard multiple positions and quickness for his size. With that in mind I make the Pippen comparison, and then I added the stat comparison as a way to further my argument.

[NorthernLightning]

Mutual interest between Aaron Gordon and Celtics


http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/06/12/celtics/uRfYTYtNIq5K0f4zRg78QN/story.html

Because of that athleticism, Austin Ainge, the Celtics? director of player personnel, believes Gordon would ?be able to do some things like guard point guards, then switch onto the bigs in pick-and-rolls and do some creative things like that. Because he?s very versatile and athletic for his size.?

?Versatility? was the term Ainge used often when describing Gordon, who has also worked out for the Los Angeles Lakers, Sacramento Kings, and Utah Jazz.

?I think Aaron?s biggest strength is his versatility,? Ainge said. ?I think he?ll be able to guard almost every position on the court, and that?s really his strength. He?s a great defender and he handles the ball pretty well for his size.

[BballTim]

Claiming that any college player can ever amount to more than jack squat seems to be taboo around here. Because it hasn't happened yet and "I watched very little college ball but..." is the motto.

  There's a huge gulf between "more than jack squat" and "a better version of Scottie Pippen". You're doing one and claiming you're doing the other.

  Edit: take heart, though. If the Celts get him the number of "he could be the next Pippen" posters will skyrocket.

[NorthernLightning]

Claiming that any college player can ever amount to more than jack squat seems to be taboo around here. Because it hasn't happened yet and "I watched very little college ball but..." is the motto.

  There's a huge gulf between "more than jack squat" and "a better version of Scottie Pippen". You're doing one and claiming you're doing the other.

  Edit: take heart, though. If the Celts get him the number of "he could be the next Pippen" posters will skyrocket.

"a better version of Scottie Pippen". You're doing one and claiming you're doing the other."

You use quotes, and yet you misquote me. pretty slick.

[NorthernLightning]

2012: Aaron Gordon: Who do you think you are?

In fact, Gordon sees himself resembling one of the most skilled small forwards of all time in former Chicago Bulls star Scottie Pippen. At 6-foot-8, 228 pounds, Pippen wasn't much bigger than Gordon is now. He won six NBA championships and earned a reputation as one of the most well-rounded stars in NBA history, averaging 16.1 points, 6.4 rebounds, 5.2 assists and 2.0 steals for his career. He often served as a primary ball-handler and distributor, and he was selected to the NBA's All-Defensive first team eight times.

Gordon believes he can develop that type of skill set.

"I'm definitely more of a Pippen," he says. "I think eventually I'm going to be most effective facing the basket and working out near the 3-point line. I could even develop more explosiveness and play as a really big 2."

http://espn.go.com/blog/high-school/boys-basketball/post/_/id/4939/who-do-you-think-you-are-aaron-gordon

[NorthernLightning]

2014

Asked to compare himself to an NBA model, Gordon says: "Scottie Griffin - a combination of Scottie Pippen and Blake Griffin. The defensive intensity of Pippen, and his ability to handle the ball. And I love Blake Griffin's athleticism."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2014/03/29/college-basketball-tournament-west-region-arizona-wildcats-aaron-gordon/7032447/

[BballTim]

Claiming that any college player can ever amount to more than jack squat seems to be taboo around here. Because it hasn't happened yet and "I watched very little college ball but..." is the motto.

  There's a huge gulf between "more than jack squat" and "a better version of Scottie Pippen". You're doing one and claiming you're doing the other.

  Edit: take heart, though. If the Celts get him the number of "he could be the next Pippen" posters will skyrocket.

"a better version of Scottie Pippen". You're doing one and claiming you're doing the other."

You use quotes, and yet you misquote me. pretty slick.

  More like paraphrased you. Here's your quote:

"Gordon has a very real chance of being a dominant defender like a bigger and stronger Scottie Pippen".

[BballTim]

2014

Asked to compare himself to an NBA model, Gordon says: "Scottie Griffin - a combination of Scottie Pippen and Blake Griffin. The defensive intensity of Pippen, and his ability to handle the ball. And I love Blake Griffin's athleticism."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2014/03/29/college-basketball-tournament-west-region-arizona-wildcats-aaron-gordon/7032447/

  If that were at all the case the odds on him getting picked later than 2nd would be slim at best.