Author Topic: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#  (Read 32451 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #90 on: June 11, 2014, 08:16:05 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862

Quote
Contrary to the apparent opinion of several on this blog, the "bust" rate of international players who have been drafted in recent years is not really much different from that of NCAA-sourced players.   For lottery picks, the bust rate is about 1 in 3.  That increases as you go deeper into the draft for both NCAA and Internationals.

I found some data that contradicts this opinion.   It says that 58% of foreign players are busts.  49% of college players are busts and .32% of high school players were  busts.  10% is a huge difference in my book.


http://sportsnstats.com/nba-draft-euro-bust/

That article uses data going back to 1979.  While it gives a larger sample size, it is also skewed away from the actual trending.  It also is including busts from later in the draft in the two numbers you cite.

I did a sample on lottery picks since 2005 and came up with essentially about 1 in 3 busts overall, just slightly above that for non-NCAA players and slightly below it for NCAA players, but both numbers easily within the noise of 1/3.  That was posted on one of the threads on these forums.

It is also perfectly reasonable to expect that, historically draft selections of international players would be subject to more uncertainty (due to lack of information) and thus more subject to "bust" not necessarily on the innate lesser ability of a whole class of players, but on improper evaluation of the selectors.   The more information you have about a player, the more likely you will correctly rank him relative to his peers.

As we move forward to more recent times and going forward the amount and quality of information available to GMs, scouts and analysts on non-NCAA players has increased tremendously.   
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #91 on: June 11, 2014, 08:30:45 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48121
  • Tommy Points: 8800
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
NCAA players were stopped from going to international competitions not because they couldn't compete with professionals 10 years older than them but because they couldn't beat them every single time for the gold.

They could play competitively with those players. They just couldn't beat them for gold every time anymore. Big difference IMHO. America wanted to win gold in their game. So then we started sending our professionals and then the international community stopped being able to not only beat America but even compete with America once again, for the most part.

This seems like a straw man.  No one is contending that NCAA school boys can't play competitively in international competitions.

What I am contesting is the opposite - the assertion by some that international leagues are overall somehow vastly inferior in competition levels to the NCAA.

I'm not going to assert that they are better (yet) than the NCAA.  But the gap has clearly closed tremendously since the days when a handful of US schoolboys could train together for a few weeks and go out and dominate the Olympics.
Not  a straw man at all just a response to this statement

Quote
Yeah, that's why we still send nothing but NCAA "amateur" players to the Olympics to compete with those international players.  No need at all to use more seasoned, professional NBA players to dispatch those inferior foreigners...  Oh wait ...

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #92 on: June 11, 2014, 08:37:27 PM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11688
  • Tommy Points: 1469


I found some data that contradicts this opinion.   It says that 58% of foreign players are busts.  49% of college players are busts and .32% of high school players were  busts.  10% is a huge difference in my book.


http://sportsnstats.com/nba-draft-euro-bust/

Let's for argument's sake assume that this study is accurate.  That means that roughly 3 out of 5 foreign players end up being busts.

Out of:

Exum, Saric, Nurkic, Porzingis, Capela, Bogdanovic, Tavares, Micic, Klimenko, Inglis, Jokic, Cristiano Felicio, Nemanja Dangubic, Ioannis Papapetrou

which nine do you think will end up not being busts relative to their draft position?  Which six do you think will make it?


DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #93 on: June 11, 2014, 09:21:14 PM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11688
  • Tommy Points: 1469
The  some biggest busts I can think of in recent years are foreign.

Hasheem Thabeet  #2 BUST
Michael Olowokandi  #1 BUST
Darko Milicic #2 BUST

At least Sam Bowie and Greg Oden have injuries to blame their bust status on.  That is not to say their are not some great foreign players.   But these guys were mega busts all picked high and really fringe players in the NBA.

I would rather have the Kaminsky  out of WIS than Porzingas.

Olowakandi and Thabeet were both products of the U.S. college system. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #94 on: June 15, 2014, 11:08:07 PM »

Offline Lucky17

  • DKC Commish
  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16021
  • Tommy Points: 2352
DKC League is now on reddit!: http://www.reddit.com/r/dkcleague

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #95 on: June 15, 2014, 11:19:53 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18186
  • Tommy Points: 2747
  • bammokja
This is the best reason not to draft him at #17:

http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2014/story/_/id/11090062/2014-nba-draft-kristaps-porzingis-latvia-pulls-draft

ha, ha...you beat me to it. tp for having speedy fingers.
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #96 on: June 15, 2014, 11:32:45 PM »

Offline footey

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16039
  • Tommy Points: 1837
Based on current trends, he is projected to go top 5 in next year's draft.  Another reason I was hoping we could have taken him at 17. 

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #97 on: June 15, 2014, 11:38:04 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2427
  • Tommy Points: 260
The Spurs sure are kicking themselves for drafting/acquiring so many Euro players now, huh?

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #98 on: May 08, 2016, 05:34:12 PM »

Offline andraz.frece

  • Torrey Craig
  • Posts: 7
  • Tommy Points: 4
if only we could have gotten him at 17

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #99 on: May 08, 2016, 06:32:57 PM »

Offline jbp126

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 522
  • Tommy Points: 51
Skimming through this thread was hilarious. Kudos to NorthernLightning for vehemently defending his stance on Porzingus and for being pretty spot on.

We often tend to discuss (argue) topics that will only be resolved after a few years so it's interesting to occasionally glimpse back into the archives to see how right or wrong we were.

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #100 on: May 08, 2016, 07:58:50 PM »

Offline footey

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16039
  • Tommy Points: 1837
I am totally with Northern Lightning on Porzingis.  This kid has star potential. Star.  Plays like Kirilenko would if he was 7' tall.

Sometimes I am right.

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #101 on: May 08, 2016, 08:02:00 PM »

Offline alldaboston

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4170
  • Tommy Points: 324
I am totally with Northern Lightning on Porzingis.  This kid has star potential. Star.  Plays like Kirilenko would if he was 7' tall.

Sometimes I am right.

Lol nice. TP
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #102 on: May 08, 2016, 08:22:57 PM »

Offline chilidawg

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2009
  • Tommy Points: 261
I am totally with Northern Lightning on Porzingis.  This kid has star potential. Star.  Plays like Kirilenko would if he was 7' tall.

Sometimes I am right.

Good call.  TP. 

What do you think of Bender?

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #103 on: May 08, 2016, 08:29:31 PM »

Offline Smart457

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 424
  • Tommy Points: 23
Someone needs to get ahold of northern lights guy to give us the 411 on Bender.

Re: Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
« Reply #104 on: May 09, 2016, 07:36:18 AM »

Offline greece66

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7395
  • Tommy Points: 1342
  • Head Paperboy at Greenville
I am totally with Northern Lightning on Porzingis.  This kid has star potential. Star.  Plays like Kirilenko would if he was 7' tall.

Sometimes I am right.

Good one. Take one more TP.