Author Topic: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith  (Read 5072 times)

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Offline CM0

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"The importance of steals is often overlooked, but new research is showing how critical steals truly are. In one study, a steal was found to have as much impact to a team as 9.1 points.

In his time at Louisville, Smith averaged 18.2 points a game to go along with two steals. According to this study, Smith had the impact of a player averaging 36.4 points-per-game. Applying this to the top 10 prospects, only Marcus Smart would average more points-per-game at 44.4. Putting a higher value on steals than other teams could lead the Celtics getting a great value by drafting Smith."

http://isportsweb.com/2014/06/09/boston-celtics-three-second-round-sleepers-target/

It's really, really hard to not like Smart at #6 and Smith seems like a great target for trading into the 2nd round. I read another article in which Smith called Rondo one of his role-models and professed a desire to play for the Cs.

Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2014, 08:36:30 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Sorry, don't buy the steal stat analysis although I think it is great that you posted this to get some reaction to it.  Essentially he is saying that because there are usually only maybe 6 team steals per game, that a player who can get you one more steal has a large impact relative to the total number of steals.  Whereas a player that gets you one more point, it is only one point out of 100 so the incremental value of the 1 additional point is not as valuable.

The above may be true but it still doesn't make the 1 additional steal worth 9 points even if it is an indicator of overall IQ or getting into the other team's head.  I think he over analyzed this and is making something out of nothing.

Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2014, 08:56:36 PM »

Offline BballTim

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"The importance of steals is often overlooked, but new research is showing how critical steals truly are. In one study, a steal was found to have as much impact to a team as 9.1 points.

In his time at Louisville, Smith averaged 18.2 points a game to go along with two steals. According to this study, Smith had the impact of a player averaging 36.4 points-per-game. Applying this to the top 10 prospects, only Marcus Smart would average more points-per-game at 44.4. Putting a higher value on steals than other teams could lead the Celtics getting a great value by drafting Smith."


  Steals aren't worth 9 points. If they were players like Mookie Blaylock and Lester Connor would have been perennial all-stars.

Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2014, 09:11:20 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Sorry, don't buy the steal stat analysis although I think it is great that you posted this to get some reaction to it.  Essentially he is saying that because there are usually only maybe 6 team steals per game, that a player who can get you one more steal has a large impact relative to the total number of steals.  Whereas a player that gets you one more point, it is only one point out of 100 so the incremental value of the 1 additional point is not as valuable.

The above may be true but it still doesn't make the 1 additional steal worth 9 points even if it is an indicator of overall IQ or getting into the other team's head.  I think he over analyzed this and is making something out of nothing.
good points on the analysis of steals being 9.1 points. it does seem strained, at best.

however, this thread does open the door to a parallel discussion. if not 9.1 points, then how many points is a steal worth? or, win share?

i could be persuaded that a steal is worth at least 4 points and maybe 6. the opposing team lost a possession (2 to 3 points) and your team scores (again, 2 to 3 points.) so a steal a game POTENTIALLY lets the stealing player play a role in creating a 4 to 6 point advantage.

so, when we assess a player, how do we incorporate steals into the total picture? how should they affect, or be rolled into, other stats?

i dont have an answer, but it is a good question. any thoughts by others here?
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Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2014, 09:28:23 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Say a team averages 1 point per possession.  That means that a steal takes away on average 1 point from the opponent.  The author argued that a steal leads to a higher percentage possession such as a break away which is probably true but max it might get you 2 points on average (and probably not that much).  So I could see a steal really being maybe 2.5 to 3 points.

On the other hand, players that get steals probably also gamble and miss sometimes too so that would translate to an easy bucket for the opponent brining the value back down to 2.0 to 2.5.  I of course do not have an elaborate statistical analysis to support this but based on playing and watching for many years, steals just do not seem that valuable.  They are fun when you can get them of course.

Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2014, 09:34:15 PM »

Offline mgent

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"The importance of steals is often overlooked, but new research is showing how critical steals truly are. In one study, a steal was found to have as much impact to a team as 9.1 points.

In his time at Louisville, Smith averaged 18.2 points a game to go along with two steals. According to this study, Smith had the impact of a player averaging 36.4 points-per-game. Applying this to the top 10 prospects, only Marcus Smart would average more points-per-game at 44.4. Putting a higher value on steals than other teams could lead the Celtics getting a great value by drafting Smith."


  Steals aren't worth 9 points. If they were players like Mookie Blaylock and Lester Connor would have been perennial all-stars.
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Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2014, 09:45:40 PM »

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How does a steal equate to 9 points??

I don't really understand this

Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2014, 10:02:21 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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How does a steal equate to 9 points??

I don't really understand this
Bad Regression analysis.

Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2014, 10:02:39 PM »

Offline byennie

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What's actually true is that high steal totals in college are a good predictor of NBA success, because they show outstanding athleticism that can translate at the next level.

9 points, however, is bull. If every steal ever made prevented a 3 pointer AND led to one, that's a 6 point swing. They're worth roughly one possession., minus whatever negative effects if the player gambles to get them.

Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2014, 10:14:34 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Say a team averages 1 point per possession.  That means that a steal takes away on average 1 point from the opponent.  The author argued that a steal leads to a higher percentage possession such as a break away which is probably true but max it might get you 2 points on average (and probably not that much).  So I could see a steal really being maybe 2.5 to 3 points.

On the other hand, players that get steals probably also gamble and miss sometimes too so that would translate to an easy bucket for the opponent brining the value back down to 2.0 to 2.5.  I of course do not have an elaborate statistical analysis to support this but based on playing and watching for many years, steals just do not seem that valuable.  They are fun when you can get them of course.

  I'd say about a point and a half, maybe a little more. A point or so because you're taking a possession away from your opponent, plus a fraction of a point because you're more likely to score off of a steal than a typical possession. So the point from the denied scoring opportunity plus however much the ppp is off of steals over your normal ppp.

Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2014, 11:53:25 PM »

Offline CM0

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How does a steal equate to 9 points??

I don't really understand this
Bad Regression analysis.

Part bad regression analysis/interpretation and part bad communication.  The author is likely correct in equating a steal with 9.1 points in terms of predictive ability but he misses the obvious answer as to why the figure is so much higher than the turnover point swing: steals in a game are strong indicators of winning defensive matchups that limit scoring in other possessions as well. Put simply: guys/teams get more steals when they are playing great defense and/or winning individual matchups. A single steal can in this sense be thought to represent a turnover point swing combined with defensive contribution to a point differential in other possessions.

Either way, Smart and Smith are both fantastic two-way prospects with a good combination of steals and points. The higher the value we set for steals in terms of expected points, the higher the two of them will be among all players in terms of contributed points.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 11:59:15 PM by CM0 »

Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2014, 12:35:42 AM »

Offline McHales Pits

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My thought is that if you steal the ball...You effectively end the other team's possession and prevent them from having the ability to score 1, 2, 3, or 4 points (free thow, bucket or two free throws, three pointer or bucket and 1, three pointer and 1). Also, by unexpectedly taking possession the stealing team is in transition offense - a highly efficient offense. So by stealing the ball, rushing down the court and making a bucket and drawing a foul - it is effectively a 4, 5, or 6 point swing.

Where 9.1 points comes from...I have no idea....
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 12:58:45 AM by McHales Pits »
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Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2014, 08:26:19 PM »

Offline RyNye

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The analysis does not say that a steal is worth 9.1 points. Although I have some problems with the methodology employed, saying that it equates a steal to 9.1 points is fallacious.

What he is saying is that, proportionately, getting 1 steal has the same impact on the final box score as getting 9.1 points. It is a subtle difference, but an important one.

Look, an NBA team averages somewhere between 5 and 9 steals per game. Let's just take the middle ground and say 7. So if a player on that team averages 1 steal per game, on average they are responsible for just over 14% of the team's output in steals.

Similarly, an NBA team averages between 93 and 108 points per game. Again, let's use the middle ground and say 100. A player would have to average 14 points per game to be responsible for 14% of the team's output in steals.

Now, this isn't EXACTLY how they got the 9.1 percent number. The math they used was more sophisticated and weighted to take into account a variety of factors (including team averages in team transition offense/defense and other important considerations). But the logic is essentially the same. It is just a parametric description of the relative impact of a statistic with respect to overall team performance. It doesn't say that 1 steal will produce 9.1 points.

Now, you can debate whether you agree with this number. Certainly it is a very brute-force approach to modeling relative statistical impact; in my mind, a more rigorous approach would be a Bayesian method using distributions of prior probabilities (e.g. Lance Stephenson driving into the paint is more likely to result in a turnover that counts as a steal for the opposing team than Chris Paul; etc.), but this isn't a trivial calculation, and requires knowledge that isn't accessible without access to the Sports VU camera data. However, that does not mean that the 1 steal/9.1 points comparison is inherently meaningless, either. It is actually a very important statistic to understand, it just requires proper contextualization.

This statistic does not tell you that a steal is more important to winning a basketball game than points. It merely tells us that, taken into account the total production an NBA team tends to produce regardless of whether the game is a win or a loss, you have to score 9.1 points to share the same proportional impact as getting 1 steal. That is all. This should be intuitive: when you look at the box score, any team is going to have at minimum 70 points (usually closer to 100), but will tend to only have about 1/10th as many steals. Another way to think about it is that there is greater variability in points than there are as steals (which, again, should be pretty intuitive if you've ever watched basketball). The ability to produce steals is more consistent than the ability to produce points.

(In fact, this type of analysis is how most smart people build their fantasy football rosters. Essentially, getting a really good TE is a higher value draft pick than getting a really good WR, because there are fewer really good TE's in the league. That is, the expected deviation from league average production is greater for a good TE than for a good WR, because if you pick a random WR they are on average going to be a more productive player than a random TE. Heck, this type of analysis is how most private equity firms make their money. The absolute value of a given measurement isn't nearly as meaningful as that value's relationship with wider trends and averages; when you are investing in a product or industry, you don't just look for something with high profits, you look for something with high profits relative to the average profit level of other companies in that sector.)

It has nothing to do with "regression analysis", by the way. And it has nothing to do with breaking down the expected outcome of a steal as some people in this thread have tried to do. Those are different ways to look at steals, and are both valid within the right situations, but aren't relevant to this specific comparison.

Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2014, 08:48:20 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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The analysis does not say that a steal is worth 9.1 points. Although I have some problems with the methodology employed, saying that it equates a steal to 9.1 points is fallacious.

What he is saying is that, proportionately, getting 1 steal has the same impact on the final box score as getting 9.1 points. It is a subtle difference, but an important one.

CUT FOR SPACE

Isn't that implying that all the major counting stats have identical impacts on the box score?  In a literal sense I guess that's technically correct, but in terms of actually affecting the game it seems extremely dubious.

If you addressed it somewhere in the portion I cut I apologize but I didn't see it anywhere in there.

Re: Steals, Scoring and Scoring Impact: Marcus Smart and Russ Smith
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2014, 08:53:48 PM »

Offline CM0

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What he is saying is that, proportionately, getting 1 steal has the same impact on the final box score as getting 9.1 points. It is a subtle difference, but an important one.


That's not really what he's saying. He's actually saying that a steal has the same PREDICTIVE power as 9.1 points:

"As measured by his difference in SRS (simple rating system, or average margin of victory/defeat adjusted for strength of schedule) with or without him. By comparing the regression coefficients for each variable, we can see the relative predictive value of each (all else being equal). Because we?re particularly interested in how each stat compares with points scored, I?ve set the predictive value of a single marginal point as our unit of measure (that is, the predictive value of one point equals one, and something five times more predictive than a point is five, etc.)."
Source: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-hidden-value-of-the-nba-steal/#fn-5

Again, the obvious explanation for the figure of 9.1 instead of some average point swing (based on sampling) is that a steal is often an indicator of favorable defensive matchup that exists in other possessions as well.

It's important to remember that these stats are drawn retroactively to explain wins and losses. Point differentials and scoring expectations are well understood in terms of correlation to win/loss records. It therefore makes sense to use points as a sort of currency to assess the predictive value of other key stats, but the analysis has to be limited to just that. In this sense, the goal of the researcher/statistician has to hypothesize as to WHY a stat's predictive value (in terms of points or any other metric/currency) is what it is. Saying that a steal has the same predictive power as 9.1 points is not the same thing as saying that a steal itself has the same proportional impact as 9.1 points because a steal is correlated with and/or represents a favorable defensive matchup that limits points scored in other defensive possessions.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 09:12:38 PM by CM0 »