Is Kevin Love Overrated.

[Tr1boy]

what player do fans here WANT the C's to use all their assets on? because there arent many stars who average 25ppg, 12rpg coming on the market the next 5 years,

and Danny surely isnt going to field 10draft picks over the next 5 years, nor do I think Sullinger/Olynyk are our answers as "stars" to lead the team.

I recall people thinking the cost for KG was too high at the time...now Kevin Love is not KG, but he IS an all-star level talent in this league. he was 4th in scoring.

not sure why you would bank on "potential" vs. "actual"

I want LMA. Anthony Davis. If these players are not available trade our assets or even overpay a little for embiid or okafor next season

Right now sully and ko combined (with body improvements and experience) can provide the offensive production of love.

Then you have the 6th and 17th picks in a stong draft. All these assets are here to stay past this upcoming season also

Since unrealistic body improvements seem to be on the table for discussion, why stop there? Why not wait for Bradley to grow 4 more inches, Olynyk to develop blazing speed, and Jeff Green to grow a pair?

How is it unrealistic for ko to reach 260 and be in better condition?? Or sully to be more toned?

You had previously referred to Sully as developing and Anthony Mason type body, which is crazy.

Why??  Mason is a sully but with a conditioned body. Both big space eating players

[hpantazo]

what player do fans here WANT the C's to use all their assets on? because there arent many stars who average 25ppg, 12rpg coming on the market the next 5 years,

and Danny surely isnt going to field 10draft picks over the next 5 years, nor do I think Sullinger/Olynyk are our answers as "stars" to lead the team.

I recall people thinking the cost for KG was too high at the time...now Kevin Love is not KG, but he IS an all-star level talent in this league. he was 4th in scoring.

not sure why you would bank on "potential" vs. "actual"

I want LMA. Anthony Davis. If these players are not available trade our assets or even overpay a little for embiid or okafor next season

Right now sully and ko combined (with body improvements and experience) can provide the offensive production of love.

Then you have the 6th and 17th picks in a stong draft. All these assets are here to stay past this upcoming season also

Since unrealistic body improvements seem to be on the table for discussion, why stop there? Why not wait for Bradley to grow 4 more inches, Olynyk to develop blazing speed, and Jeff Green to grow a pair?

How is it unrealistic for ko to reach 260 and be in better condition?? Or sully to be more toned?

You had previously referred to Sully as developing and Anthony Mason type body, which is crazy.

Why??  Mason is a sully but with a conditioned body. Both big space eating players

So you honestly think Sully will become this?

[Boris Badenov]

what player do fans here WANT the C's to use all their assets on? because there arent many stars who average 25ppg, 12rpg coming on the market the next 5 years,

and Danny surely isnt going to field 10draft picks over the next 5 years, nor do I think Sullinger/Olynyk are our answers as "stars" to lead the team.

I recall people thinking the cost for KG was too high at the time...now Kevin Love is not KG, but he IS an all-star level talent in this league. he was 4th in scoring.

not sure why you would bank on "potential" vs. "actual"

Right now sully and ko combined (with body improvements and experience) can provide the offensive production of love.

No they can't. Nor can they provide the rebounding. Love is a 120 ORTG high usage player. Olynyk and Sullinger haven't posted such efficiency in even a low usage role.

Maybe he meant if you add their numbers together.

The idea I suppose is that our current roster would be pretty good if we could play 10 on 5.

[BballTim]

I don't think anyone on here has a serious problem with the idea of Kevin Love in green, I think we're all just arguing about an acceptable price.

At least a couple posters seem to have a problem.

Mike

the problems alluded to above seem to be first, the cost of obtaining love. i could live with some of the scenarios for a  love trade that bounce around here. but the underlying point seems, to me at least, that it makes no sense to get love if the celtics deplete the team doing so.

next in the department of doubt is love's defense, or lack there of. defense is hard to gauge with stats in the nba, but i think part of the problem is that for love to rebound at such an insane rate he often positions himself for rebounds, not defense. meaning that he does not put full effort into playing defense on his man each and every time.

most distressing, to me, is that no player in the entire league gives up more points at the rim than kevin love. this is not a category you want your player to be #1 in.

next, his opponents take the 10th most FGA at the rim and by far they score at the best rate of players in that range. love essentially allows an average of more than 5 layups or dunks per game. FIVE. again, i think this is tied in part to his focus on rebounds instead of defense.

but in all honesty, under his current system perhaps he is not supposed to be a rim defender and this may account for SOME of those lay ups he lets' through. but that only explains a portion of a troubling facet of his game. but no matter how you look at it, love isn't a guy who does much to stop his man from scoring.

love clearly is an excellent player, a great scorer, and a very good rebounder, but does all that make up for his being a poor defender? or does his being a poor defender lower his overall value as a player to the point where he is not able to win enough games given his cost in salary and trade chips? crudely stated, does he give up so many points that the advantage of his scoring is significantly eroded?

  Where did you get your numbers from? nba.com? If so, I don't know that they say exactly what you think they do. They measure how opposing players (anyone from the other team, not just your man) score at the rim when you're within 5 feet of them. Some of those plays might be Love crashing the glass because someone's shooting and not because he was actually covering the guy who shot the ball. If you look at Love's numbers from synergy sports (where they actually look at plays where he's covering people he's very good defending post-ups, he's very good in isolation and he's good in pick and roll man defense. While no defensive numbers are definitive they at least cast doubt on whether he's a terrible defender or not.

[Fafnir]

what player do fans here WANT the C's to use all their assets on? because there arent many stars who average 25ppg, 12rpg coming on the market the next 5 years,

and Danny surely isnt going to field 10draft picks over the next 5 years, nor do I think Sullinger/Olynyk are our answers as "stars" to lead the team.

I recall people thinking the cost for KG was too high at the time...now Kevin Love is not KG, but he IS an all-star level talent in this league. he was 4th in scoring.

not sure why you would bank on "potential" vs. "actual"

Right now sully and ko combined (with body improvements and experience) can provide the offensive production of love.

No they can't. Nor can they provide the rebounding. Love is a 120 ORTG high usage player. Olynyk and Sullinger haven't posted such efficiency in even a low usage role.

Maybe he meant if you add their numbers together.

The idea I suppose is that our current roster would be pretty good if we could play 10 on 5.

I'm confident that with 6 on 5 the Celtic would make the ECF, if we'd just added some shooting at the trade deadline we'd win the whole thing.

[D.o.s.]

I don't think anyone on here has a serious problem with the idea of Kevin Love in green, I think we're all just arguing about an acceptable price.

At least a couple posters seem to have a problem.

Mike

the problems alluded to above seem to be first, the cost of obtaining love. i could live with some of the scenarios for a  love trade that bounce around here. but the underlying point seems, to me at least, that it makes no sense to get love if the celtics deplete the team doing so.

next in the department of doubt is love's defense, or lack there of. defense is hard to gauge with stats in the nba, but i think part of the problem is that for love to rebound at such an insane rate he often positions himself for rebounds, not defense. meaning that he does not put full effort into playing defense on his man each and every time.

most distressing, to me, is that no player in the entire league gives up more points at the rim than kevin love. this is not a category you want your player to be #1 in.

next, his opponents take the 10th most FGA at the rim and by far they score at the best rate of players in that range. love essentially allows an average of more than 5 layups or dunks per game. FIVE. again, i think this is tied in part to his focus on rebounds instead of defense.

but in all honesty, under his current system perhaps he is not supposed to be a rim defender and this may account for SOME of those lay ups he lets' through. but that only explains a portion of a troubling facet of his game. but no matter how you look at it, love isn't a guy who does much to stop his man from scoring.

love clearly is an excellent player, a great scorer, and a very good rebounder, but does all that make up for his being a poor defender? or does his being a poor defender lower his overall value as a player to the point where he is not able to win enough games given his cost in salary and trade chips? crudely stated, does he give up so many points that the advantage of his scoring is significantly eroded?

  Where did you get your numbers from? nba.com? If so, I don't know that they say exactly what you think they do. They measure how opposing players (anyone from the other team, not just your man) score at the rim when you're within 5 feet of them. Some of those plays might be Love crashing the glass because someone's shooting and not because he was actually covering the guy who shot the ball. If you look at Love's numbers from synergy sports (where they actually look at plays where he's covering people he's very good defending post-ups, he's very good in isolation and he's good in pick and roll man defense. While no defensive numbers are definitive they at least cast doubt on whether he's a terrible defender or not.

The Synergy numbers which you can't link to because presumably you don't have a subscription to their service?

[BballTim]

but in all honesty, under his current system perhaps he is not supposed to be a rim defender and this may account for SOME of those lay ups he lets' through. but that only explains a portion of a troubling facet of his game. but no matter how you look at it, love isn't a guy who does much to stop his man from scoring.

love clearly is an excellent player, a great scorer, and a very good rebounder, but does all that make up for his being a poor defender? or does his being a poor defender lower his overall value as a player to the point where he is not able to win enough games given his cost in salary and trade chips? crudely stated, does he give up so many points that the advantage of his scoring is significantly eroded?

  While this isn't exactly what you're asking, on 82games they measure "net production" which is basically your PER minus the PER of the opposing player at your position. Love didn't play much in 2013 but in the other 3 most recent years (2011, 2012 and 2014) he's finished 4th, 6th and 8th in the league in net production. I think that people would be hard pressed to come up with stats that don't show Love significantly outproducing his opposing player.

[BballTim]

I don't think anyone on here has a serious problem with the idea of Kevin Love in green, I think we're all just arguing about an acceptable price.

At least a couple posters seem to have a problem.

Mike

the problems alluded to above seem to be first, the cost of obtaining love. i could live with some of the scenarios for a  love trade that bounce around here. but the underlying point seems, to me at least, that it makes no sense to get love if the celtics deplete the team doing so.

next in the department of doubt is love's defense, or lack there of. defense is hard to gauge with stats in the nba, but i think part of the problem is that for love to rebound at such an insane rate he often positions himself for rebounds, not defense. meaning that he does not put full effort into playing defense on his man each and every time.

most distressing, to me, is that no player in the entire league gives up more points at the rim than kevin love. this is not a category you want your player to be #1 in.

next, his opponents take the 10th most FGA at the rim and by far they score at the best rate of players in that range. love essentially allows an average of more than 5 layups or dunks per game. FIVE. again, i think this is tied in part to his focus on rebounds instead of defense.

but in all honesty, under his current system perhaps he is not supposed to be a rim defender and this may account for SOME of those lay ups he lets' through. but that only explains a portion of a troubling facet of his game. but no matter how you look at it, love isn't a guy who does much to stop his man from scoring.

love clearly is an excellent player, a great scorer, and a very good rebounder, but does all that make up for his being a poor defender? or does his being a poor defender lower his overall value as a player to the point where he is not able to win enough games given his cost in salary and trade chips? crudely stated, does he give up so many points that the advantage of his scoring is significantly eroded?

  Where did you get your numbers from? nba.com? If so, I don't know that they say exactly what you think they do. They measure how opposing players (anyone from the other team, not just your man) score at the rim when you're within 5 feet of them. Some of those plays might be Love crashing the glass because someone's shooting and not because he was actually covering the guy who shot the ball. If you look at Love's numbers from synergy sports (where they actually look at plays where he's covering people he's very good defending post-ups, he's very good in isolation and he's good in pick and roll man defense. While no defensive numbers are definitive they at least cast doubt on whether he's a terrible defender or not.

The Synergy numbers which you can't link to because presumably you don't have a subscription to their service?

  Haha. No, I don't have a subscription. I go to mysynergysports, select Kevin Love and look at his defensive numbers. It's not like I'm hacking their site or anything. I'm pretty sure I can't send a link to that directly.

[vinnie]

what player do fans here WANT the C's to use all their assets on? because there arent many stars who average 25ppg, 12rpg coming on the market the next 5 years,

and Danny surely isnt going to field 10draft picks over the next 5 years, nor do I think Sullinger/Olynyk are our answers as "stars" to lead the team.

I recall people thinking the cost for KG was too high at the time...now Kevin Love is not KG, but he IS an all-star level talent in this league. he was 4th in scoring.

not sure why you would bank on "potential" vs. "actual"

I want LMA. Anthony Davis. If these players are not available trade our assets or even overpay a little for embiid or okafor next season

Right now sully and ko combined (with body improvements and experience) can provide the offensive production of love.

Then you have the 6th and 17th picks in a stong draft. All these assets are here to stay past this upcoming season also

I can't wait for the HOF induction ceremony for Sully and KO. I hope they go in the same year...

[vinnie]

what player do fans here WANT the C's to use all their assets on? because there arent many stars who average 25ppg, 12rpg coming on the market the next 5 years,

and Danny surely isnt going to field 10draft picks over the next 5 years, nor do I think Sullinger/Olynyk are our answers as "stars" to lead the team.

I recall people thinking the cost for KG was too high at the time...now Kevin Love is not KG, but he IS an all-star level talent in this league. he was 4th in scoring.

not sure why you would bank on "potential" vs. "actual"

I want LMA. Anthony Davis. If these players are not available trade our assets or even overpay a little for embiid or okafor next season

Right now sully and ko combined (with body improvements and experience) can provide the offensive production of love.

Then you have the 6th and 17th picks in a stong draft. All these assets are here to stay past this upcoming season also

Since unrealistic body improvements seem to be on the table for discussion, why stop there? Why not wait for Bradley to grow 4 more inches, Olynyk to develop blazing speed, and Jeff Green to grow a pair?

Hysterical. +1

[Tr1boy]

Whats hysterical is that you think a player has the same body/condition from year 1 to year 2 etc.

[Tr1boy]

what player do fans here WANT the C's to use all their assets on? because there arent many stars who average 25ppg, 12rpg coming on the market the next 5 years,

and Danny surely isnt going to field 10draft picks over the next 5 years, nor do I think Sullinger/Olynyk are our answers as "stars" to lead the team.

I recall people thinking the cost for KG was too high at the time...now Kevin Love is not KG, but he IS an all-star level talent in this league. he was 4th in scoring.

not sure why you would bank on "potential" vs. "actual"

I want LMA. Anthony Davis. If these players are not available trade our assets or even overpay a little for embiid or okafor next season

Right now sully and ko combined (with body improvements and experience) can provide the offensive production of love.

Then you have the 6th and 17th picks in a stong draft. All these assets are here to stay past this upcoming season also

Since unrealistic body improvements seem to be on the table for discussion, why stop there? Why not wait for Bradley to grow 4 more inches, Olynyk to develop blazing speed, and Jeff Green to grow a pair?

How is it unrealistic for ko to reach 260 and be in better condition?? Or sully to be more toned?

You had previously referred to Sully as developing and Anthony Mason type body, which is crazy.

Why??  Mason is a sully but with a conditioned body. Both big space eating players

So you honestly think Sully will become this?

Yes if he puts the work into it. You think mason or karl malone came into  the league that way?

Sully is a strong kig with a big lower base. Guys with big lower bases usually have an easier time building muscle

[D.o.s.]

  Haha. No, I don't have a subscription. I go to mysynergysports, select Kevin Love and look at his defensive numbers. It's not like I'm hacking their site or anything. I'm pretty sure I can't send a link to that directly.

You could take a screenshot -- there's a lot of info you're missing out on without the full services to Synergy, though.

I think you're being generous with the word 'good', though. You could more correctly say he has bench-player level defense.

[Tr1boy]

Loves shortcoming on defense also has to do with a lack of exceptional height, wingspan and reach. But what bothers me is his lack of full out effort to compensate.

[BballTim]

  Haha. No, I don't have a subscription. I go to mysynergysports, select Kevin Love and look at his defensive numbers. It's not like I'm hacking their site or anything. I'm pretty sure I can't send a link to that directly.

You could take a screenshot -- there's a lot of info you're missing out on without the full services to Synergy, though.

I think you're being generous with the word 'good', though. You could more correctly say he has bench-player level defense.

  In terms of the numbers I was talking about "good" is something of an understatement. I don't think "bench-level player defense" has any particular meaning, bench players are frequently better defenders than starters. I'm not going to screw around with trying to paste screenshots into posts. And for me paying for subscriptions to sites with basketball stats is above and beyond what I should be doing for something that already takes more of my time than it should.