Author Topic: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?  (Read 13733 times)

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Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« on: June 03, 2014, 04:05:11 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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A year ago, the Celtics also had a young, dynamic PG still in his prime (Rondo/Parker), an aging but still crafty scorer (Pierce/Ginobili) and a old but still effective defensive leader (KG/Duncan). We also had a coach widely considered to be one of the best in the league (Rivers/Popovich). So why couldn't the C's just continue on and supplement the aging stars with effective bench guys with late-round picks/smart free-agent signings? Was it just too difficult a path to take? Obviously the situations aren't exactly the same but they're not entirely different either.

Here are the reasons I can think of for why it didn't/couldn't happen here:

1) Doc doesn't play the kids. We all know it, Doc doesn't play kids because he doesn't trust them. Thus, the bench was never allowed to develop and the old guys played too much, tiring them out when the playoffs came along. The Celtics always said they wanted to play Pierce and Garnett limited minutes but they never had the discipline to truly stick with it.

2) The C's stink at finding international talent. For whatever reason the C's never exploited the foreign market (Dino Radja where art thou?) to their advantage. If you believe the stereotype, foreign players are more team-oriented and have better fundamental skills like passing and shooting.

3) Duncan is obviously aging better than Garnett. Duncan isn't the same player as before, but seeing him on the court he can still move pretty well and his game never relied on athleticism anyway. Garnett does not seem like the same player since he lost his quickness and burst.

4) The Spurs stars all took discounts.
The Celtics stars did take slight discounts on their last deals but they were not significant enough to give the team more flexibility. Their attitude seemed to be that they still wanted to make good money on their last deals which would last past their primes. Was Pierce worth 15.3 million this past year? Garnett is not making a crazy amount (12 million/year until 2015 to Duncan's 10 million) but his production is dipping precipitously.

5) Ray Allen wouldn't have left the Spurs (or the situation wouldn't have happened the same way). The Spurs seem to have a great atmosphere where everyone on the team loves each other. This is not limited to on the court, as reports are they enjoy spending time together off the court as well. I think the C's do have a strong organization, but as we all know the team relationships were sometimes a little frosty. Maybe some of the blame falls on Ray here for quitting on the Celtics but I'm just throwing this out there for consideration.

6) Ainge picked the wrong supporting guys.
One of the reasons the Celtics couldn't win another title is they didn't get great FA pickups or good late 20s draft gems in recent years. You'd think that after the first title Ainge would have his pick of any mid-tier free agent but it didn't work out that way. Instead, we got the O'Neals (Shaq and Jermaine), Rasheed Wallace, Marquis Daniels, Jason Terry, Stephon Marbury, and Patrick O'Bryant. Meanwhile, picks like Giddens, Melo, JaJuan Johnson, and all the 2nd rounders Danny took failed to click. Back in the day Ainge would turn late first rounders into gold like Tony Allen, Rondo, and Perkins. After the title win he definitely had a dry spell until he took Sullinger.

Well, what do you guys think? Of course there are other reasons (injuries primarily, but those also hit the Spurs in recent seasons) but these seem to be the main ones. Or, it could just be as simple as the Spurs from top to bottom are just better at everything. They're like the Patriots: past their title prime in recent years but they're always in the hunt and they seem to effortlessly change the parts around Brady (Duncan) and continuously win year after year.



Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2014, 04:35:32 AM »

Offline freshinthehouse

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I think the Duncan vs. Garnett is the biggest difference.  KG hasn't been the same guy since 09.  He had that late career renaissance when he started playing the 5 in 12, but he is still a far cry from what Duncan is at this stage in his career.  What Duncan is doing at age 38 is incredible.  The only guys I can remember putting up these kind of playoff numbers at that age are Karl Malone and Kareem.

Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2014, 04:40:18 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Tim Duncan Per-36


Season    Age Pos  FG%  FT%  TRB AST STL BLK  PTS
1997-98    21  PF .549 .662 11.0 2.5 0.6 2.3 19.4
1998-99    22  PF .495 .690 10.5 2.2 0.8 2.3 19.9
1999-00    23  PF .490 .761 11.5 2.9 0.8 2.1 21.5
2000-01    24  PF .499 .618 11.3 2.8 0.8 2.2 20.6
2001-02    25  PF .508 .799 11.3 3.3 0.7 2.2 22.6
2002-03    26  PF .513 .710 11.8 3.6 0.6 2.7 21.3
2003-04    27  PF .501 .599 12.2 3.0 0.9 2.6 21.9
2004-05    28  PF .496 .670 12.0 2.9 0.7 2.8 21.9
2005-06    29  PF .484 .629 11.4 3.3 0.9 2.1 19.2
2006-07    30   C .546 .637 11.2 3.6 0.9 2.5 21.1
2007-08    31   C .497 .730 12.0 3.0 0.8 2.1 20.5
2008-09    32   C .504 .692 11.4 3.8 0.5 1.8 20.7
2009-10    33   C .518 .725 11.6 3.6 0.7 1.7 20.6
2010-11    34   C .500 .716 11.3 3.4 0.8 2.4 17.1
2011-12    35   C .492 .695 11.5 2.9 0.8 1.9 19.7
2012-13    36   C .502 .817 11.9 3.2 0.9 3.2 21.3
2013-14    37   C .490 .731 12.0 3.7 0.7 2.3 18.7
Career            .506 .694 11.5 3.2 0.8 2.3 20.6


Kevin Garnett Per-36:


Season       Age  FG%  FT%  TRB AST STL BLK  PTS
1995-96       19 .491 .705  7.9 2.3 1.4 2.1 13.1
1996-97       20 .499 .754  7.4 2.8 1.3 2.0 15.7
1997-98       21 .491 .738  8.8 3.9 1.6 1.7 17.0
1998-99       22 .460 .704  9.9 4.1 1.6 1.7 19.8
1999-00       23 .497 .765 10.6 4.5 1.3 1.4 20.6
2000-01       24 .477 .764 10.4 4.5 1.2 1.6 20.1
2001-02       25 .470 .801 11.1 4.8 1.1 1.4 19.4
2002-03       26 .502 .751 11.9 5.4 1.2 1.4 20.4
2003-04       27 .499 .791 12.7 4.6 1.3 2.0 22.1
2004-05       28 .502 .811 12.8 5.4 1.4 1.3 21.0
2005-06       29 .526 .810 11.8 3.7 1.3 1.3 20.2
2006-07       30 .476 .835 11.7 3.8 1.1 1.5 20.5
2007-08       31 .539 .801 10.1 3.8 1.5 1.4 20.7
2008-09       32 .531 .841  9.9 2.9 1.3 1.4 18.3
2009-10       33 .521 .837  8.8 3.2 1.2 1.0 17.3
2010-11       34 .528 .862 10.2 2.8 1.5 0.9 17.1
2011-12       35 .503 .857  9.5 3.4 1.1 1.2 18.3
2012-13       36 .496 .786  9.4 2.8 1.4 1.1 17.9
2013-14       37 .441 .809 11.6 2.7 1.4 1.3 11.4
Career           .497 .790 10.5 3.9 1.3 1.5 18.9


KG regressed even per-minute.  Duncan is more or less the same player he's always been.

Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2014, 07:03:38 AM »

Offline BballTim

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  Between KG, Rondo and Green we've had significant major injuries/health problems to key players that they really haven't. If TD had the injury and KG hadn't they'd have probably broken up the spurs during our three-peat.

Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2014, 07:32:26 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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You guys are right, of course. Duncan is still performing like one of the best big men in the league while Garnett is a shell of his former self.

Still, I can't help but feel when Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili start really breaking down they will work together with the team to find some graceful way to stick around. Of course it's different because their big 3 have never played anywhere else while Allen and Garnett were mercenaries in their early 30s, but it just seems like the Celtics don't have the same culture.

It strikes me as a failure when Ray Allen just jumps ship to Miami, or when Pierce and Garnett are making it known (publicly or privately) they don't really want to be part of a rebuild. Or, when they're still signing big money deals past their prime (Lakers struggling with that now with Kobe).

I'm suddenly reminded of the Perkins situation where the Celtics didn't want to re-sign their admittedly flawed big man, while the Spurs gave Splitter a generous contract even though he's arguably a replaceable guy talent-wise at that price.

Of course, it's easier to ask your stars to take discounts when your biggest star, Duncan, is willing to take a below-market deal himself. The Red Sox got into trouble when they paid huge money for outside FAs/traded players who suddenly made a lot more than homegrown guys who took a slight hometown discount. It seems now the Sox are committed to keeping salaries below average across the board, but most importantly locking in their team leaders at a reasonable price and not allowing any one player to make disproportionately more than another.

Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2014, 07:37:25 AM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

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Clearly KG's dropoff is one of the biggest reasons.  But another big one is that the Spurs bench is much better than ours would have been. 

When you draft the best player of the last 15 years (Tim Duncan) it makes it much easier to have everything fall into place.   

Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2014, 07:37:48 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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They added Leonard and Splitter through the draft.  The Celtics added no one at that level.


They didn't overpay role players. 




But mostly, Duncan and Manu are aging well, capable of bringing the same level of play, just in smaller time samples.  The Spurs built the depth to allow that. 

Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2014, 07:39:43 AM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

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KG's been playing since 19. A body that's not fully developed may have taken an extra toll, not to mention KG has those extra years in the league.

Not only does KG have a more athletic playstyle, but he also has to carry a bad Wolves team, no doubt more taxing on his body.

-----

As for the OP, I agree.

For the point re:Doc, though, much as I'm more on the side of C's fans who like him less: He's a good coach. Look what he's done with DeAndre Jordan.

So before anyone blames Doc, and I'm inclined to as well, the real knock on him would be that he's not Pop. That he doesn't do the things Pop does.

But Pop is an innovator. The league is following the things Pop has been doing for several years. This is a guy who completely scrapped his old philosophies in light of his aging superstar.

Maybe Doc being less stubborn at times would have helped but he's by no means a bad coach.

Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 08:30:13 AM »

Offline hpantazo

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As others said, it's all about Pierce and KG deteriorating much faster than Duncan and Ginobili. I think Pop saving his stars by resting them a lot over the years helped. Manu missing many games from injuries helped, and Duncan not relying as much as KG on athleticism helped.

As they showed in Brooklyn, KG and Pierce just can't carry a team anymore. Duncan and Ginobili can.

Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 08:52:35 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Because they don't have Pop, Duncan, Parker or Manu.

Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 08:52:54 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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They added Leonard and Splitter through the draft.  The Celtics added no one at that level.


They didn't overpay role players. 




But mostly, Duncan and Manu are aging well, capable of bringing the same level of play, just in smaller time samples.  The Spurs built the depth to allow that.

while I think leonard is good, it seems like all of these "good" role players for the spurs are good mostly because they're coached up than anything else. they go somewhere else and they just don't seem to have the same impact.


Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2014, 08:54:08 AM »

Offline manl_lui

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we didn't draft the player of a lifetime? don't have a superb coach?

Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2014, 09:00:06 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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also, there's a very good reason why KG is deteriorating and Duncan seems about the same as when he came in the league. KG relied more on his athleticism for a good portion of his career right up until that injury in Utah. while Duncan came into the league with the "old man" game already in his repertoire.


Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2014, 09:00:11 AM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

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we didn't draft the player of a lifetime? don't have a superb coach? LITERALLY one of the best coaches in history behind Red?


Re: Why couldn't the Celtics do what the Spurs are doing?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2014, 09:03:47 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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In addition to our guys aging poorly, Rondo isn't as good as Parker, especially in terms of running the type of offense the Spurs do.


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