Author Topic: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic  (Read 38760 times)

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Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2014, 07:33:50 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Aldridge wont be available, also, here's why we should prefer Love over him.

a.) Try to imagine what would happen if Aldridge and Love switch teams. Love will have Lillard as his 2nd scorer, Matthews, Batum and Robin Lopez helping him defensively. Do you think they wont make the Playoffs?

Yes, I do.  I think they would be a first round exit most likely, or otherwise possibly not make it at all.


b.) I'm still working my advanced metrics knowledge, but I think basic ESPN stats can tell a story.

Let's head to head the stats from last season, Love - Aldridge.

The only thing LMA was better at from those stats are blocks, by half a point, and TO's. Love scores more but shoots less, grabs a couple more rebounds, better 3pt shooter, better assists getter (wont say better passer, im not sure about that, but he gets assists)


That's because you're looking at exactly that - 'basic' stats.  In those basic stats Love may look like a better scorer, but look at the statistical breakdown offensively of both players over their careers...

Love:
Career FG Percentage (overall): 45.1%
Career FG Percentage (2PT shots): 47.9%
Career FG Percentage (3PT shots): 36.2%
Career FG Percentage (0-3 feet): 59.6%
Career FG Percentage (3-10 feet): 39.4%
Career FG Percentage (10-16 feet): 32.8%
Career FG Percentage (16 feet to 3 point): 38.9%
Career FT Percentage: 81.5%

Aldridge:
Career FG Percentage (overall): 48.8%
Career FG Percentage (2PT shots): 49.1%
Career FG Percentage (3PT shots): 20.7%
Career FG Percentage (0-3 feet): 69.4%
Career FG Percentage (3-10 feet): 43.8%
Career FG Percentage (10-16 feet): 41.2%
Career FG Percentage (16 feet to 3 point): 42.1%
Career FT Percentage: 78.8%

Lemarcus Aldridge is a significantly better scorer from everywhere on the court EXCEPT from three and from the free throw line.  Love may score more points, but Aldridge is a more dangerous scorer from almost anywhere on the court.  Love basically scroes more points because he attempts more free throws (and hits them at a slightly higher rate) and because he takes more three point FG's (which amount to more points than a two point FG).

I would argue that when the game is on the line and you need a big basket, and you need to take whatever shot you can get, you'd be more confident in LMA hitting that shot than you would with Love because Aldridge is just a superior shooting from anywhere inside the three point line.  He's got exceptonal finishing ability around the basket, he's got an elite jump shot from midrange, deadly turnaround jumpshot from the post (which is all but unguardable) and if you do foul him he's still a very good foul shooter.  The only time Love is going to be a better option is if he's catching it outside the three point line, basically. Keep him off the perimieter and you have a pretty decent shot of shutting him down and winning the game.  Shutting Aldridge down is much more difficult, because he can score in so many ways. 

On top of that there is the issue of defense.  Imagine you are in a big playoff game, series is on the line, game is tied.  You are the Blazers.  Love has the ball, and you desperately need a shop.  Aldridge is on Love.  You have a pretty good chance of Aldridge getting a stop, and coming back on offense for a chance to win the game.

Now the tables turn.  Aldridge has the ball, the other team is on defense, Love is on Aldridge.  What is the chance of Aldridge not scoring on Love?  Not looking good. Love's team will most likely HAVE to send a double team, leaving another player wide open elsewhere on the court. 

See Love might be a better three point shooter, but Aldridge can still defend Love's three.  Can Love defend Aldridge?

This is why I don't see Love as a #1 option on a team.  He's nowhere near as effective a scorer as people seem to think when he's inside the three point line.  In fact over his career there is not a single position on the floor (outside of 3 feet) where Love has shot better than 40%.  If he's your go-to guy when the game is on the line, you're probably in trouble.  That's probably a big reason why the Wolves have struggled to get any real team success with Love as their star player.  However if he is your #2 guy, then that I think is deadly.  If you have that #1 guy who can draw attention and demand double teams then opposing teams run the risk of losing track of Love, at which time he can really destroy you. 

I think Love is the equivalent of Ray Allen when he was at Boston in 08.  Ray was a big time player, could have some huge games, but without Pierce and KG I'm not so sure he ever would have been able to lead Boston as the #1 guy.  Put hiim on a team with a scorer like Pierce however, then Ray (as a #2 or #3 guys) becomes absolutely deadly.

I think Love is, at the end of the day, better as a complementary star - much like the role Chris Bosh has in Miami.  Bosh put up massive numbers in Toronto, but that team never really got anywhere far.  As a complementary player alongside a Lebron/Wade however, Bosh is deadly.  Same thing with Love I believe.


c) Aldridge is also closing in on 30, while Kevin Love is 25. Love has room to improve and you'll have a longer window, can't say that with LMA.

The hate with Love because of his defensive deficiencies, I get. But it can be solved, he can be masked. To deny that Love is not a max player though, that's what I think is ridiculous.

I think Love's status as a Max player is kinda questionable. 

I don't think it's a question that he'd GET a max contract, I just think it's questionable whether I would be willing to actually PAY him a max contract.  He's the type of guy who I would never pay that money to, but you know for certain there's somebody out there who would.  Kinda like Josh Smith - everybody knew SOMEONE would offer him a Max contact, which they did.  In his case though it wasn't so bad, because Smith's max contract wasn't team-crippling high.  Around 13M or so.  You can work with that.  Love's contract renewal would be at least $18M, and that is team-crippling high.  Unless you think he is a guy who can be your #1 and lead you to a title (or you know absolutely for certain that you can get a guy to pair with him who can), I don't think he's worth it.

For Chicago I think he's worth it.  Derek Rose is your #1 scorer, Joakim Noah is your elite post protector. Throw Kevin Love in to that mix and you have an instant contender.

For Boston, not sure he's such a good fit.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2014, 07:35:11 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I want some of what this guy is smoke n

 :o

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2014, 07:37:12 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Look, dude can simply play...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3n8ks-l-r8

Anytime you get a high five from SPIKE LEE "IN" NY then you must be about something.

Regardless of his warts (Which will be buffed up in BOS) - Kevin Love can ball.

Every time I see those outlet passes I bet Jeff Green is smiling..

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2014, 08:21:23 AM »

Offline dreamgreen

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BAh I'm sure your a Gordon fan, drafting him over trading for Love gets you your defense + years more of lottery picks. :-X

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2014, 08:41:14 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Look, dude can simply play...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3n8ks-l-r8

Anytime you get a high five from SPIKE LEE "IN" NY then you must be about something.

Regardless of his warts (Which will be buffed up in BOS) - Kevin Love can ball.

Every time I see those outlet passes I bet Jeff Green is smiling..

Yes, showing "top 10" highlights makes anybody look good.

Check out Youtube highlights of Josh Smith and you would think he's challenging Lebron James for the MVP award on a yearly basis.

Pity "top 10" highlights only show the shots you make...they don't show the shots you miss, the shots you give up, and the complaining you do in the media.  Nor do they show your team's combined win record over the 6 seasons you have played there.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2014, 08:48:23 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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P.s.

Just for the record I'm not trying to say Love is a chump who can't play.  I consider him an All-Star player.  I just don't consider him a superstar.

IMHO Love is an All-Star being paid Superstar money, and that's why I don't really want to go there.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2014, 09:10:25 AM »

Offline BballTim

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26.1 PPG  (4th in the League)
12.5 RPG  (3rd in the League)
  4.4 APG  (1st among Power Forwards)
26.97 PER  (3rd in the League)
25 years old

Can we seriously stop with the not worth a max contract...players like this are who you build around.

Why dont you post some defensive stats also?? Prob near last in all of them.

  From synergy sports he was 109th in the league in lowest ppp for players he's guarding. So based on that the average team has 3-4 players (total players, not starters) that give up a lower ppp to players he's guarding. As others have noted, his DRtg isn't overly bad and his opponent's production from 82games isn't really bad either, and his team's defense didn't improve at all when he was on the bench. If there are any stats that show him to be a terrible defender I didn't see them. Let me know if you come up with any.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2014, 09:17:12 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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BAh I'm sure your a Gordon fan, drafting him over trading for Love gets you your defense + years more of lottery picks

You are aware that Love has never made the playoffs and here are the position of draft picks of Minny since his tenure there.

2013 drafted 9th (Trey Burke)
2012 Would have drafted 10th traded (Austin Rivers)
2011  2nd Derrick Williams
2010  4th Wesley Johnson  , 30th Lazar Hayward
2009 6th Johnny Flynn  and 5th via trade Ricky Rubio.
2008 Kevin Love acquired

Gee, during Love's 6th six years they have been in the lottery a lot.  Looks like Love gets you ton of lottery picks as well.

I am not endoring Gordon over Love.   I think Love is and will be the better of the two.   But sometimes people here say things that are down right silly.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2014, 09:19:43 AM »

Offline hpantazo

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BAh I'm sure your a Gordon fan, drafting him over trading for Love gets you your defense + years more of lottery picks

You are aware that Love has never made the playoffs and here are the position of draft picks of Minny since his tenure there.

2013 drafted 9th (Trey Burke)
2012 Would have drafted 10th traded (Austin Rivers)
2011  2nd Derrick Williams
2010  4th Wesley Johnson  , 30th Lazar Hayward
2009 6th Johnny Flynn  and 5th via trade Ricky Rubio.
2008  3rd OJ Mayo  traded

Gee, during Love's 6th six years they have been in the lottery a lot.  Looks like Love gets you ton of lottery picks as well.


looking at those picks you listed should tell you why Love hasn't been in the playoffs. That, and the fact that the TWolves are in the western conference. In the east he would have made the playoffs at least 4 times by now, and possibly the conference finals.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2014, 09:21:22 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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They have not drafted well,  Mayo was traded for Love, I edited my original post to reflect that.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2014, 09:22:52 AM »

Offline hpantazo

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They have not drafted well,  Mayo was traded for Love, I edited my original post to reflect that.


Yea, I had forgotten that they traded Mayo for Love. What a great trade that ended up being. Mayo sucks.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2014, 09:25:59 AM »

Offline BballTim

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P.s.

Just for the record I'm not trying to say Love is a chump who can't play.  I consider him an All-Star player.  I just don't consider him a superstar.

IMHO Love is an All-Star being paid Superstar money, and that's why I don't really want to go there.

  Most all-stars are paid superstar money. That's just how the nba and the max salaries are.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #72 on: June 01, 2014, 09:28:59 AM »

Offline Sketch5

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BAh I'm sure your a Gordon fan, drafting him over trading for Love gets you your defense + years more of lottery picks

You are aware that Love has never made the playoffs and here are the position of draft picks of Minny since his tenure there.

2013 drafted 9th (Trey Burke)
2012 Would have drafted 10th traded (Austin Rivers)
2011  2nd Derrick Williams
2010  4th Wesley Johnson  , 30th Lazar Hayward
2009 6th Johnny Flynn  and 5th via trade Ricky Rubio.
2008  3rd OJ Mayo  traded

Gee, during Love's 6th six years they have been in the lottery a lot.  Looks like Love gets you ton of lottery picks as well.


looking at those picks you listed should tell you why Love hasn't been in the playoffs. That, and the fact that the TWolves are in the western conference. In the east he would have made the playoffs at least 4 times by now, and possibly the conference finals.

I was just going to point that out as well. It's hard to blame Love when the ownership never got him support. Rubio was suppose to be better than he's turned out to be, but thats still not really enough in the West.

Minni makes the playoffs in the East with their record this year. You throw Love on this team with just getting rid of Sully and fillers, the C's make the playoffs, even could take the Atlantic. Get an other go too guy or defensive center, they are on Indy's level.

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #73 on: June 01, 2014, 09:33:18 AM »

Offline MBunge

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I would argue that when the game is on the line and you need a big basket, and you need to take whatever shot you can get, you'd be more confident in LMA hitting that shot than you would with Love because Aldridge is just a superior shooting from anywhere inside the three point line.  He's got exceptonal finishing ability around the basket, he's got an elite jump shot from midrange, deadly turnaround jumpshot from the post (which is all but unguardable) and if you do foul him he's still a very good foul shooter.  The only time Love is going to be a better option is if he's catching it outside the three point line, basically. Keep him off the perimieter and you have a pretty decent shot of shutting him down and winning the game.  Shutting Aldridge down is much more difficult, because he can score in so many ways. 

On top of that there is the issue of defense.  Imagine you are in a big playoff game, series is on the line, game is tied.  You are the Blazers.  Love has the ball, and you desperately need a shop.  Aldridge is on Love.  You have a pretty good chance of Aldridge getting a stop, and coming back on offense for a chance to win the game.

Now the tables turn.  Aldridge has the ball, the other team is on defense, Love is on Aldridge.  What is the chance of Aldridge not scoring on Love?  Not looking good. Love's team will most likely HAVE to send a double team, leaving another player wide open elsewhere on the court. 

See Love might be a better three point shooter, but Aldridge can still defend Love's three.  Can Love defend Aldridge?

This is why I don't see Love as a #1 option on a team.  He's nowhere near as effective a scorer as people seem to think when he's inside the three point line.  In fact over his career there is not a single position on the floor (outside of 3 feet) where Love has shot better than 40%.  If he's your go-to guy when the game is on the line, you're probably in trouble.  That's probably a big reason why the Wolves have struggled to get any real team success with Love as their star player.  However if he is your #2 guy, then that I think is deadly.  If you have that #1 guy who can draw attention and demand double teams then opposing teams run the risk of losing track of Love, at which time he can really destroy you. 

I think Love is the equivalent of Ray Allen when he was at Boston in 08.  Ray was a big time player, could have some huge games, but without Pierce and KG I'm not so sure he ever would have been able to lead Boston as the #1 guy.  Put hiim on a team with a scorer like Pierce however, then Ray (as a #2 or #3 guys) becomes absolutely deadly.

1.  I notice you haven't responded to the "advanced" stats that show Love is as good or better than Aldridge.

2.  Aldridge is not available.  If he were, your obsession with comparing him and Love might make sense.  But what if Aldridge was available and I was arguing we shouldn't get him because he's not as good as LeBron?  That would make as much sense as you are now.

3.  You just destroyed your own argument.  If Boston doesn't get Ray Allen, they never get KG.  Acquiring Love opens the door to other moves they will never be able to make otherwise.

Mike

Re: This is the reason why i don't want Love as a Celtic
« Reply #74 on: June 01, 2014, 09:41:15 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Aldridge wont be available, also, here's why we should prefer Love over him.

a.) Try to imagine what would happen if Aldridge and Love switch teams. Love will have Lillard as his 2nd scorer, Matthews, Batum and Robin Lopez helping him defensively. Do you think they wont make the Playoffs?

Yes, I do.  I think they would be a first round exit most likely, or otherwise possibly not make it at all.


b.) I'm still working my advanced metrics knowledge, but I think basic ESPN stats can tell a story.

Let's head to head the stats from last season, Love - Aldridge.

The only thing LMA was better at from those stats are blocks, by half a point, and TO's. Love scores more but shoots less, grabs a couple more rebounds, better 3pt shooter, better assists getter (wont say better passer, im not sure about that, but he gets assists)


That's because you're looking at exactly that - 'basic' stats.  In those basic stats Love may look like a better scorer, but look at the statistical breakdown offensively of both players over their careers...

Love:
Career FG Percentage (overall): 45.1%
Career FG Percentage (2PT shots): 47.9%
Career FG Percentage (3PT shots): 36.2%
Career FG Percentage (0-3 feet): 59.6%
Career FG Percentage (3-10 feet): 39.4%
Career FG Percentage (10-16 feet): 32.8%
Career FG Percentage (16 feet to 3 point): 38.9%
Career FT Percentage: 81.5%

Aldridge:
Career FG Percentage (overall): 48.8%
Career FG Percentage (2PT shots): 49.1%
Career FG Percentage (3PT shots): 20.7%
Career FG Percentage (0-3 feet): 69.4%
Career FG Percentage (3-10 feet): 43.8%
Career FG Percentage (10-16 feet): 41.2%
Career FG Percentage (16 feet to 3 point): 42.1%
Career FT Percentage: 78.8%

Lemarcus Aldridge is a significantly better scorer from everywhere on the court EXCEPT from three and from the free throw line.  Love may score more points, but Aldridge is a more dangerous scorer from almost anywhere on the court.  Love basically scroes more points because he attempts more free throws (and hits them at a slightly higher rate) and because he takes more three point FG's (which amount to more points than a two point FG).

  Love is a significantly more efficient scorer than LMA.