The very fact that this Kevin Love rumor is even going on validates the tanking.

[greg683x]

The top 5 pick wasn't Jefferson.

It was Jeff Green.

I know that.  In a previous post he mentioned we didnt trade a top 5 pick for Kevin Garnett.  The point I was making was that Al Jefferson is the reason we didnt need to send them a top 5 pick, a 21 year old prospect putting up 20 and 10

[Neurotic Guy]

Not sure why anyone cares about validating or criticizing our performance this season.  We are what we are and that is a very bad team with a lot of potentially valuable assets.  Every one of us here wants DA to make moves that bring the C's to contential and we all want to see it happen sooner rather than later.   

To say "I was right" or "you were wrong" about tanking is meaningless.  We have assets to use to make this team better, and we all want to use them wisely.  Congrats to everyone who thought we should tank. Congrats to everyone who thought we shouldn't.  You are all correct.   

Now let's win us a lottery!

Why are people who thought we shouldn't tank right? Clearly tanking is already paying dividends.

It was my way of saying that it's over and we are all on board with the future.  People who didn't want to tank brought a strong spirit of always rooting for a win no matter what. There's nothing wrong with that. 

And anyway, it's sports, anything can happen -- the 15th pick in the draft may turn out to be the next Larry Bird.

[CoachBo]

The top 5 pick wasn't Jefferson.

It was Jeff Green.

   ...who wasn't traded for KG. There was not top 5 pick involved in that deal. The top 5 pick not only brought us Ray, but it also enticed Seattle to take on Wally and his 2 remaining years on a bloated contract. That shows how much they wanted to get rid of Ray.

True. Green was included in the Allen deal. Jefferson wasn't close to a top 5 pick.

[BballTim]

The top 5 pick wasn't Jefferson.

It was Jeff Green.

I know that.  In a previous post he mentioned we didnt trade a top 5 pick for Kevin Garnett.  The point I was making was that Al Jefferson is the reason we didnt need to send them a top 5 pick, a 21 year old prospect putting up 20 and 10

  16 and 11, not 20 and 10. Per36 he was putting up 17/12, per36 Sully puts up 17/11 and those numbers would have been better aside from his hand injury. Al was a somewhat better prospect but the difference wasn't as great as you make it out to be.

[CoachBo]

The top 5 pick wasn't Jefferson.

It was Jeff Green.

I know that.  In a previous post he mentioned we didnt trade a top 5 pick for Kevin Garnett.  The point I was making was that Al Jefferson is the reason we didnt need to send them a top 5 pick, a 21 year old prospect putting up 20 and 10

Actually, Jefferson put up 16 and 11 in his final year as a Celtic. Never averaged 20 ppg in Boston.

[greg683x]

If the Celtics had barely made the playoffs, Ainge would still have a ton of draft picks to offer in a deal and Kevin Love would currently be viewed as the guy who could boost the team from playoff contender to title contender.  The Celtics having a high lottery pick didn't cause Kevin Love to be available.  He'd still be out there and Boston would be seen as one of the likely suitors.

  No kidding. We've got 8-9 first rounders over the next 5 years, the thought that we couldn't swing a deal without this year's pick is fairly ludicrous.

10 nickles doesn't equal a dollar. 

While I agree that a boatload of marginal late 1st rounders is theoretically nice... A top 5 pick is still significantly more valuable than a #15 pick.

For instance...

If you had to trade Rondo, would you rather trade him for a Top 5 pick in this draft... or 3-4 picks in the #17-25 range?

And if 3-4 picks in the #17-25 range = a Top 5 pick... we best be packaging those picks for a Top 5 pick

   You don't have any idea where the picks will end up, neither does the team that trades them, neither does the team that trades for them. Just look at how everyone's opinions of the Nets picks have changed over the last year, including the 2014 pick which is a number of spots better than you'd have predicted it would be at the start of the season. Not to mention we got KG without trading a top 5 pick...

True.  But with the right trade a future Nets pick could also go from a mid first rounder to a late first rounder.  It's the great unknown at this point.  What we have now for the Wolves is the sure thing, a pick in the top 8 or higher.  Do you want the Ferrari??  Or whats in the mystery box??  it could be a check for a 80 million dollars or a coupon for a bag of dorritos at safeway.

  There's quite a bit of exaggeration in that paragraph. Future first round draft picks are worth more than you seem to think.

The top 5 pick we traded for KG was Al Jefferson, who at the time was considered a possible franchise player.  We dont have a 21 year old PF that showed he could put up 20 and 10 on the reg to offer back.  Yeah we have Sullinger but hes only shown flashes, has been known to be injury prone, and is considered undersized.  Too many questions.

  Sullinger's a little younger and less experienced than Al was and his per minute scoring and rebounding are pretty similar. Not to mention that Al was also seen as injury prone and not much bigger than Jared. He was seen as a nice player but not really a franchise player.

future first round picks from perennial cellar dwellers, yes, are very valuable.  However, the Nets have an owner thats willing to spend money and wants to win now and theyre playing in a HORRIBLE conference.  Are they old?  Yes.  Are they over the cap?  Yes.  But trades can happen especially for active teams that want to stay competitive.  It's no where near a lock that team will just crumble into oblivion.


How was Al Jefferson considered injury prone??  His ankle sprains?  Sullingers had season ending back surgery to fix a problem doctors have said could shorten his career.  He's had different nagging injuries bothering him this year as well.

[BballTim]

The top 5 pick wasn't Jefferson.

It was Jeff Green.

   ...who wasn't traded for KG. There was not top 5 pick involved in that deal. The top 5 pick not only brought us Ray, but it also enticed Seattle to take on Wally and his 2 remaining years on a bloated contract. That shows how much they wanted to get rid of Ray.

True. Green was included in the Allen deal. Jefferson wasn't close to a top 5 pick.

  If you look at the #5 picks in the last 10 drafts there are only 2-3 that are better than Jefferson. He's at least an average player for a #5 pick, probably better than average. In fact Jeff Green's probably better than average for a top 5 pick. If Sully stays healthy he's better than a typical #5 pick. It's true.

[greg683x]

The top 5 pick wasn't Jefferson.

It was Jeff Green.

I know that.  In a previous post he mentioned we didnt trade a top 5 pick for Kevin Garnett.  The point I was making was that Al Jefferson is the reason we didnt need to send them a top 5 pick, a 21 year old prospect putting up 20 and 10

  16 and 11, not 20 and 10. Per36 he was putting up 17/12, per36 Sully puts up 17/11 and those numbers would have been better aside from his hand injury. Al was a somewhat better prospect but the difference wasn't as great as you make it out to be.

fair enough, you left out jareds shooting % at 42%  and Jeffersons at 51%, Id say thats pretty note worthy.  But hey, agree to disagree

[greg683x]

The top 5 pick wasn't Jefferson.

It was Jeff Green.

   ...who wasn't traded for KG. There was not top 5 pick involved in that deal. The top 5 pick not only brought us Ray, but it also enticed Seattle to take on Wally and his 2 remaining years on a bloated contract. That shows how much they wanted to get rid of Ray.

True. Green was included in the Allen deal. Jefferson wasn't close to a top 5 pick.

  If you look at the #5 picks in the last 10 drafts there are only 2-3 that are better than Jefferson. He's at least an average player for a #5 pick, probably better than average. In fact Jeff Green's probably better than average for a top 5 pick. If Sully stays healthy he's better than a typical #5 pick. It's true.

Ok, I can agree with that.  Thats point I was trying to make was that Jefferson was the reason we didnt give Minny a top 5 pick.

You proved that Sully can fit into that category as well, but I dont think hes regarded as highly around the league as Jefferson was, if we cant agree on talent, we could agree that it's still bc of the back issue.

[BballTim]

If the Celtics had barely made the playoffs, Ainge would still have a ton of draft picks to offer in a deal and Kevin Love would currently be viewed as the guy who could boost the team from playoff contender to title contender.  The Celtics having a high lottery pick didn't cause Kevin Love to be available.  He'd still be out there and Boston would be seen as one of the likely suitors.

  No kidding. We've got 8-9 first rounders over the next 5 years, the thought that we couldn't swing a deal without this year's pick is fairly ludicrous.

10 nickles doesn't equal a dollar. 

While I agree that a boatload of marginal late 1st rounders is theoretically nice... A top 5 pick is still significantly more valuable than a #15 pick.

For instance...

If you had to trade Rondo, would you rather trade him for a Top 5 pick in this draft... or 3-4 picks in the #17-25 range?

And if 3-4 picks in the #17-25 range = a Top 5 pick... we best be packaging those picks for a Top 5 pick

   You don't have any idea where the picks will end up, neither does the team that trades them, neither does the team that trades for them. Just look at how everyone's opinions of the Nets picks have changed over the last year, including the 2014 pick which is a number of spots better than you'd have predicted it would be at the start of the season. Not to mention we got KG without trading a top 5 pick...

True.  But with the right trade a future Nets pick could also go from a mid first rounder to a late first rounder.  It's the great unknown at this point.  What we have now for the Wolves is the sure thing, a pick in the top 8 or higher.  Do you want the Ferrari??  Or whats in the mystery box??  it could be a check for a 80 million dollars or a coupon for a bag of dorritos at safeway.

  There's quite a bit of exaggeration in that paragraph. Future first round draft picks are worth more than you seem to think.

The top 5 pick we traded for KG was Al Jefferson, who at the time was considered a possible franchise player.  We dont have a 21 year old PF that showed he could put up 20 and 10 on the reg to offer back.  Yeah we have Sullinger but hes only shown flashes, has been known to be injury prone, and is considered undersized.  Too many questions.

  Sullinger's a little younger and less experienced than Al was and his per minute scoring and rebounding are pretty similar. Not to mention that Al was also seen as injury prone and not much bigger than Jared. He was seen as a nice player but not really a franchise player.

future first round picks from perennial cellar dwellers, yes, are very valuable.  However, the Nets have an owner thats willing to spend money and wants to win now and theyre playing in a HORRIBLE conference.  Are they old?  Yes.  Are they over the cap?  Yes.  But trades can happen especially for active teams that want to stay competitive.  It's no where near a lock that team will just crumble into oblivion.

    Nobody said that it was.

How was Al Jefferson considered injury prone??  His ankle sprains?  Sullingers had season ending back surgery to fix a problem doctors have said could shorten his career.  He's had different nagging injuries bothering him this year as well.

  Yes, I'm talking about his many ankle sprains, which many people were calling chronic at the time. He missed significant time in multiple years because of them and they impacted his level of play quite a bit in 2006 and the beginning of 2007.

[BballTim]

The top 5 pick wasn't Jefferson.

It was Jeff Green.

   ...who wasn't traded for KG. There was not top 5 pick involved in that deal. The top 5 pick not only brought us Ray, but it also enticed Seattle to take on Wally and his 2 remaining years on a bloated contract. That shows how much they wanted to get rid of Ray.

True. Green was included in the Allen deal. Jefferson wasn't close to a top 5 pick.

  If you look at the #5 picks in the last 10 drafts there are only 2-3 that are better than Jefferson. He's at least an average player for a #5 pick, probably better than average. In fact Jeff Green's probably better than average for a top 5 pick. If Sully stays healthy he's better than a typical #5 pick. It's true.

Ok, I can agree with that.  Thats point I was trying to make was that Jefferson was the reason we didnt give Minny a top 5 pick.

You proved that Sully can fit into that category as well, but I dont think hes regarded as highly around the league as Jefferson was, if we cant agree on talent, we could agree that it's still bc of the back issue.

  The reason we didn't give Minny a top 5 pick was that we didn't have one at the time and it was *still* the best offer they got. Minny probably won't get great value for Love, just like they didn't for KG. That's generally the case when star players are traded.

[greg683x]

The top 5 pick wasn't Jefferson.

It was Jeff Green.

   ...who wasn't traded for KG. There was not top 5 pick involved in that deal. The top 5 pick not only brought us Ray, but it also enticed Seattle to take on Wally and his 2 remaining years on a bloated contract. That shows how much they wanted to get rid of Ray.

True. Green was included in the Allen deal. Jefferson wasn't close to a top 5 pick.

  If you look at the #5 picks in the last 10 drafts there are only 2-3 that are better than Jefferson. He's at least an average player for a #5 pick, probably better than average. In fact Jeff Green's probably better than average for a top 5 pick. If Sully stays healthy he's better than a typical #5 pick. It's true.

Ok, I can agree with that.  Thats point I was trying to make was that Jefferson was the reason we didnt give Minny a top 5 pick.

You proved that Sully can fit into that category as well, but I dont think hes regarded as highly around the league as Jefferson was, if we cant agree on talent, we could agree that it's still bc of the back issue.

  The reason we didn't give Minny a top 5 pick was that we didn't have one at the time and it was *still* the best offer they got. Minny probably won't get great value for Love, just like they didn't for KG. That's generally the case when star players are traded.

Love is younger and doesnt have a no trade clause though, so that opens the bidding a lot more.  But yes, they'll be taking a hit on their return since the guys telling everyone hes leaving anyway.

[Ogaju]

The decision to tank was a no brainer.

[JBcat]

Here is the big caveat why we may not need to trade a top 5 pick for Love.  Most likely whatever team that trades for Love will want Love to agree to an extension first.  The only projected teams with a high lottery pick Love might agree to an extension are us and the Lakers.   As a result we might not have to offer our top pick to trump someone's offer.  Even if say the Lakers agree to trade their top pick their team's situation is worse than ours with an aging Kobe, some cap space, and little else in assets.  We are in a better position to put a winning team around Love with our assets.

[MBunge]

We wouldn't be at this point or discussing such a trade if we didn't have a lottery pick, which we do only because we tanked.

This alone validates all the tanking effort more than anything.

Philly was tanking it far more and far longer than Boston.  If tanking was key, why aren't they in the lead for Love?  Why aren't the Bucks?

Mike

A better question is: where are the Hawks going?  Granted, they are getting Hoford back, but do you think losing to the Pacers in the first round was worth giving up on one of Gordon / Saric / Nurkic for someone like Rodney Hood?  And the possibility of winning the draft outright, even if it is a remote chance?

On the other hand, if the Ping pong balls bounce wrong, Philly could end up picking 4th or 5th, miss on the franchise player they need and wind up no better than the Hawks 5 years down the road.

And frankly, the idea that getting someone like Saric over someone like Hood is worth gutting your team so you won 25 to 35 games for the next few years takes the fantasy GM thing to a ridiculous extreme.

Mike