Gordon like Celtics

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Broken shooting mechanics are not something that is easy to fix. Gordon has trouble hitting anything outside of 3 feet. Great defenders that can not shoot or have offensive games much beyond a dunk can be found in the second round of most drafts. I don't see wasting a top ten pick on someone who projects out to be a role playing defender.

This is my pet peeve. I understand that better mechanics lead to better shots, but I'd still really rather be comfortable and just practice, practice, practice and practice. Does not matter if my elbows are tight or my feet are set, if I settle in a form where I'm comfortable, that should be it, and just keep shooting.

I really believe that these guys, when they shoot, are more worried about getting their mechanics right than actually focusing on hitting a shot. Shawn Marion has the WEIRDEST shot but did not prevent him from being a decent to good shooter. Kevin Martin's form isnt pretty either, but he's hitting shots. Marcus Camby had a decent mid range game in his prime, and he whirls the ball around in his head.

If I'm the Celtics, and will draft Gordon with the idea of improving his jumper, I'd let him shoot in a way he's really comfortable, screw mechanics. But I'll let him shoot A LOT, maybe about 500 a day. He'll improve that way IMO, muscle memory works that way too, but, he's focused on making the shot instead of focusing on his form and mechanics.

Just me.

I agree. And Gordon has said he has improved his jump shot since he has finished college.  I mean he shot high 50's in FT's in the U19. He shot around 35 percent in three pt shooting in college. It's not like he can't shoot like a Drummond and to me is already a better shooter than Gwallace at the same age.

Practice the shots and have confidence in shooting the shot. Once he improves his FT shooting, everything else should come to its own.

Lastly just bc you have a broken shot in college and early in the nba doesn't mean it will never improve. Blake Griffin is a perfect example. Rondo has improved even though you wish he was better. There are a whole list of other players in the same boat. Now if you want someone to improve their feel of the game, defense (on and off ball), explosiveness etc. now these are things very difficult to get better at.  These are the things Gordon already has

Perfectly said
If he can shut down LBJs/Melos/Hardens/Durants i don't really care about his shooting

When did he make the jump from good college defender to being able to shut down the best in the league. I would be disgusted if we pick him, especially at 5.

Well, hr does have the motor and the physical tools to develop into a really good defender. But I agree, picking him at 5 is a reach. If he's our guy, we will trade down.

[chambers]

Lot of people on this board are high on Gordon, I will admit not to have seen him play. But to me he sounds like a tweener that can't hit 3s.

Right now I'd be disappointed if we ended up with him, I just don't see where he fits on the team.

The tweener thing is a major concern for Gordon. As anyone who has followed Josh Smith can attest, 3's who don't stretch the floor are a major liability to have on offense... many good NBA lineups these days have 4 shooters, and if you have only 2, it isn't good. I think Gordon can play the 3 alongside KO at the 4, with Gordon taking on the 4's position in the offense and KO spacing the floor. Ideally we'd also have a center who could hit the 15 footer.

exactly. If we had a PF and C who couldn't also shoot a lick, i wouldn't even want Danny to draft Gordon. But it's bc of KO , Sullinger who both can shoot, plus Green, AB can shoot ok that i don't mind getting Gordon.    You look at a team like Miami or the spurs and they have enough guys that are not naturally good shooters. Lebron James, Dwade, Parker, Duncan . These guys have learned to make the open shot but again are not naturals and they are doing just fine, winning game, championships etc.

you don't need a lineup full of ray allens. Matter of fact a lineup like that is prob missing other key elements and won't go too far.  A perfect example of such teams are the GS warriors or the Knicks

I told you why I think Gordon is not a top 5 pick in another thread, but I want to know what position you think he plays in the NBA. I think you said he's a small forward, and it would appear that way from watching him in college, but he lacks the handles and shooting touch for an NBA small forward.
In the combine telecast all the ESPN cheeseheads said he's 100% a power forward in the NBA.
I'd probably prefer that but is he going to be able to hold his own against monsters like Blake Griffin or Zac Randolph? Is he going to be a hybrid 3/4 like Jeff Green?

I've watched plenty of his games too. You seem to have an obsession with his intangibles and his 'leadership' abilities. Those again are great, but they are often attained (as Nickagenta said), by 2nd round picks with defensive prowess.

I think he could be a better version of Tony Allen in that he could score and rebound more, whilst being a lock down defender. Problem is when there are other guys with more All Star potential and more complete games, with defined positions, his stock drops dramatically.

We need a player like an Allen or Gordon right now. This current lineup has a bunch of nice guys plus Rondo (all with nice skills).  Adding more skill might win you a few more games, but you are not going far from there. 

And btw you are not going to find players with the kind of intangibles, leadership skills + talent Gordon has in the 2nd round.  List me a few 2nd round guys that have all these things in the nba today.

Actually, we need a player like Rondo now. An All Star. A guy that might one day take us through the playoffs against the best players in the world. A guy with size, strength, speed, footwork, finishing ability and ball skills.
Aaron Gordon is not that guy and doesn't have the offensive capabilities to be that guy.

If he's not gonna be the guy on offense, then his best asset is his defense. Obviously you aren't going to find a tonne of guys like Gordon in the 2nd round, but defensive minded wings often come in the 2nd round or late first round because they lack the scoring prowess and fundamentals for an NBA scorer. You keep talking about fundamentals and work ethic.

 Yeah his work ethic is great but his offensive fundamentals are close to a high school level. He 100% won't be able to break down NBA defenders off the dribble because he's a straight line drive type of player on offense. He puts his head down and barges his way to the hole or he runs the length of the court and uses his size and speed like Jeff Green or Lebron. He's great at tip ins and rebound put backs BUT...
The big gaping hole in his game his is dribble breakdown and getting to the rim 1v1. If he could do that he'd be on the same level as Wiggins, Parker, Exum and Smart- the elite wings of this draft- in fact he'd be better.
Coming out of high school he was touted as the next Lebron because he was so athletic and big, but he hasn't developed his offensive game to be an elite small forward.

Because he can't break defenders down he's being defined as a power forward in the NBA.
Now we begin discussions about if he has the size to be an NBA power forward.

I'll ask you again, what position does he play in the NBA?
You seem adamant that he's an SF but he doesn't have the offensive tangibles needed to be an elite SF. Hiis athleticism makes him dominant in college vs boys but in the NBA it won't be enough.
He's looking like he'll be a tweener power forward without a true position- someone you throw out there that can guard anyone from Lebron to Haslem, who works his butt off and hustles every play. A glue guy. Not a potential franchise guy.
 

[Tr1boy]

Chambers, what position does Marion play?  Can Marion create his own shot or even have a natural looking jump shot??  Would you still consider him as one of the better SF/PFs that played in this league the last 10-12 years now?

Gordon is going to play SF in the nba.   Like marion can he create his own shot or have a sweet looking jump shot? well right now he hasn't shown he can on a consistent basis but he is still very young and could develop both of these things.  Still , he can go end to end, he can get to the basket in a straight line but your wrong that he is one of those types that just puts their heads down and doesn't know what their doing. I've seen enough plays of him driving and making difficult passes near the basket or to a jump shooter for easy baskets.  I've seen him direct his point guards  to identify certain plays, matchups to get a better scoring chance. He is constantly thinking while moving on both ends

You know whats another issue/unknown? The guy was not relied upon to score 20 a game.  He was working with his many other talented teammates to win games. Like he said , he doesn't care about individual stats, taking poor shots, taking shots with 25 seconds left in the clock (which guys like Parker, Smart did alot) . He was about execution, making the right plays and not turning over the ball.   He has accomplished alot since the U19 tourney. And to help his team obtain the regular season record they did and carry them to the elite 8 is a pretty darn good accomplishment for a freshman.

But some naysayers like yourself think this is likely the end for him once he gets to the nba. He is going to be a role player, no offense, etc.  For me as long as he keeps winning, it won't matter if he can't score or shoot threes at a high rate.  The kid has proven to be a winner and will do everything possible to win.   Only some players have this kind of luck/quality

[pokeKingCurtis]

A point of interest was raised by an article on Celticsblog's very own main page: the offensive inversion brought on by Olynyk (and Sully). [Link: http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/5/6/5662604/olynyks-less-nowitzki-more-gasol-player-comparison]

In a nutshell, Olynyk has hit Wallace on multiple possessions for easy buckets.

With 1 big who can pass very well, and 1 who is a solid passer, the Celtics' horns could be an intriguing weapon.

Aaron Gordon theoretically works very well as a 3 in that offense, as brought up by a reddit user in the Celtics sub. [Link: http://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/24vjal/celticsblog_compares_olynyk_and_marc_gasol/chb1lyg]

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(But, for the price of one of our lesser first rounders, I'm actually thinking Gerald Wallace for J-Smoove. This allows us to use our top 8+ pick for other things, gives Rondo incentive to stay, and most importantly turns Gerald Wallace into an actual asset......don't hate me.)

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In either case, Jason Smith sounds like a fantastic fit.

[D.o.s.]

Chambers, what position does Marion play?  Can Marion create his own shot or even have a natural looking jump shot??  Would you still consider him as one of the better SF/PFs that played in this league the last 10-12 years now?

Marion was a great 20-10 player in an offensive-oriented small ball system where he could play the 4.

He also had Steve Nash, in his prime, getting him the ball at a speed that's not very fast by today's standards but was an extraordinarily fast offense at the time. He's never put up those kind of numbers in any other system, for any other coach, and it's foolish to think that a player who's physically reminiscent could duplicate that.

And he shot 34% from deep for his career with the Suns anyway, so he could shoot the three at more or less the league average. He also had a couple seasons shooting the deep ball at 38 and 39%

[fitzhickey]

Chambers, what position does Marion play?  Can Marion create his own shot or even have a natural looking jump shot??  Would you still consider him as one of the better SF/PFs that played in this league the last 10-12 years now?

Over his career Marion has shot over 80% from the foul line and has shot .385% from between 10 feet to the three point line. Marion has also had multiple seasons of scoring 20+ ppg.

If Gordon ever comes close to that I'll eat my shoe.

[Tr1boy]

Chambers, what position does Marion play?  Can Marion create his own shot or even have a natural looking jump shot??  Would you still consider him as one of the better SF/PFs that played in this league the last 10-12 years now?

Marion was a great 20-10 player in an offensive-oriented small ball system where he could play the 4.

He also had Steve Nash, in his prime, getting him the ball at a speed that's not very fast by today's standards but was an extraordinarily fast offense at the time. He's never put up those kind of numbers in any other system, for any other coach, and it's foolish to think that a player who's physically reminiscent could duplicate that.

And he shot 34% from deep for his career with the Suns anyway, so he could shoot the three at more or less the league average. He also had a couple seasons shooting the deep ball at 38 and 39%

When you think of Marion you are not thinking of a high scoring player , though he was for several seasons early in his career. He was good because he utilized his athleticism/explosiveness to his advantage, played solid on both ends and for most of his career can be considered a winner.   High iq, didn't take low percentage shots, low turnover number , good character. Extremely hard working, never takes plays off and did/does things that alot of players can't (bc of his natural athleticism, explosiveness).  More of the recent mocks, scouts, experts say the more accurate comparison to Gordon and his game is Marion, not Griffin. 

If you can get another Marion like player at 5-7 pick, you take that and run

[Celtics18]

Chambers, what position does Marion play?  Can Marion create his own shot or even have a natural looking jump shot??  Would you still consider him as one of the better SF/PFs that played in this league the last 10-12 years now?

Marion was a great 20-10 player in an offensive-oriented small ball system where he could play the 4.

He also had Steve Nash, in his prime, getting him the ball at a speed that's not very fast by today's standards but was an extraordinarily fast offense at the time. He's never put up those kind of numbers in any other system, for any other coach, and it's foolish to think that a player who's physically reminiscent could duplicate that.

And he shot 34% from deep for his career with the Suns anyway, so he could shoot the three at more or less the league average. He also had a couple seasons shooting the deep ball at 38 and 39%

Aaron Gordon shot better from 3 point range in his one year of college than Shawn Marion did.


I doubt Gordon's the next Matrix, though.  That guy is the most underrated NBA player of the past fifteen years. 

[fitzhickey]

Chambers, what position does Marion play?  Can Marion create his own shot or even have a natural looking jump shot??  Would you still consider him as one of the better SF/PFs that played in this league the last 10-12 years now?

Marion was a great 20-10 player in an offensive-oriented small ball system where he could play the 4.

He also had Steve Nash, in his prime, getting him the ball at a speed that's not very fast by today's standards but was an extraordinarily fast offense at the time. He's never put up those kind of numbers in any other system, for any other coach, and it's foolish to think that a player who's physically reminiscent could duplicate that.

And he shot 34% from deep for his career with the Suns anyway, so he could shoot the three at more or less the league average. He also had a couple seasons shooting the deep ball at 38 and 39%

Aaron Gordon shot better from 3 point range in his one year of college than Shawn Marion did.


I doubt Gordon's the next Matrix, though.  That guy is the most underrated NBA player of the past fifteen years.

Isn't the college 3 point line shorter?

[Celtics18]

Chambers, what position does Marion play?  Can Marion create his own shot or even have a natural looking jump shot??  Would you still consider him as one of the better SF/PFs that played in this league the last 10-12 years now?

Marion was a great 20-10 player in an offensive-oriented small ball system where he could play the 4.

He also had Steve Nash, in his prime, getting him the ball at a speed that's not very fast by today's standards but was an extraordinarily fast offense at the time. He's never put up those kind of numbers in any other system, for any other coach, and it's foolish to think that a player who's physically reminiscent could duplicate that.

And he shot 34% from deep for his career with the Suns anyway, so he could shoot the three at more or less the league average. He also had a couple seasons shooting the deep ball at 38 and 39%

Aaron Gordon shot better from 3 point range in his one year of college than Shawn Marion did.


I doubt Gordon's the next Matrix, though.  That guy is the most underrated NBA player of the past fifteen years.

Isn't the college 3 point line shorter?

Than when Shawn Marion played at UNLV?  I don't think so? 

Edit:

The three point line was actually shorter when Shawn Marion was in college than it is now. 

[fitzhickey]

Chambers, what position does Marion play?  Can Marion create his own shot or even have a natural looking jump shot??  Would you still consider him as one of the better SF/PFs that played in this league the last 10-12 years now?

Marion was a great 20-10 player in an offensive-oriented small ball system where he could play the 4.

He also had Steve Nash, in his prime, getting him the ball at a speed that's not very fast by today's standards but was an extraordinarily fast offense at the time. He's never put up those kind of numbers in any other system, for any other coach, and it's foolish to think that a player who's physically reminiscent could duplicate that.

And he shot 34% from deep for his career with the Suns anyway, so he could shoot the three at more or less the league average. He also had a couple seasons shooting the deep ball at 38 and 39%

Aaron Gordon shot better from 3 point range in his one year of college than Shawn Marion did.


I doubt Gordon's the next Matrix, though.  That guy is the most underrated NBA player of the past fifteen years.

Isn't the college 3 point line shorter?

Than when Shawn Marion played at UNLV?  I don't think so?

Oh oops, I misinterpreted. Read it as a better 3pt % than Marion had at Phoenix

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

We need this and that so if we pick Gordan it stops there, no other roles can be filled all because we pick him. 


I don't know who I'd pick but that line of thinking doesn't make sense to me.

[chambers]

Chambers, what position does Marion play?  Can Marion create his own shot or even have a natural looking jump shot??  Would you still consider him as one of the better SF/PFs that played in this league the last 10-12 years now?

Gordon is going to play SF in the nba.   Like marion can he create his own shot or have a sweet looking jump shot? well right now he hasn't shown he can on a consistent basis but he is still very young and could develop both of these things.  Still , he can go end to end, he can get to the basket in a straight line but your wrong that he is one of those types that just puts their heads down and doesn't know what their doing. I've seen enough plays of him driving and making difficult passes near the basket or to a jump shooter for easy baskets.  I've seen him direct his point guards  to identify certain plays, matchups to get a better scoring chance. He is constantly thinking while moving on both ends

You know whats another issue/unknown? The guy was not relied upon to score 20 a game.  He was working with his many other talented teammates to win games. Like he said , he doesn't care about individual stats, taking poor shots, taking shots with 25 seconds left in the clock (which guys like Parker, Smart did alot) . He was about execution, making the right plays and not turning over the ball.   He has accomplished alot since the U19 tourney. And to help his team obtain the regular season record they did and carry them to the elite 8 is a pretty darn good accomplishment for a freshman.

But some naysayers like yourself think this is likely the end for him once he gets to the nba. He is going to be a role player, no offense, etc.  For me as long as he keeps winning, it won't matter if he can't score or shoot threes at a high rate.  The kid has proven to be a winner and will do everything possible to win.   Only some players have this kind of luck/quality

So basically you want to pick a *potential* Shawn Marion in Aaron Gordon, and I want to pick a *potential* Paul Pierce in Jabari Parker.
Like I said, I have no problem picking Gordon if we land the 7th or 8th or 9th pick and trade down.
I do however, have a problem picking him with the 4th or 5th pick.
I'm not sure what you don't understand about this.

Shawn Marion is a 4 time All Star who was an excellent scorer in transition with an array of dazzling loop shots and circus moves.
Aaron Gordon doesn't have any of those shots yet. I don't know if he will, but I do know that there aren't many guys in the league like Shawn Marion that have succeeded- he's an extremely rare case.

And I am 100% correct about Aaron Gordon relying on his strength and size instead of his dribbling skill and dribble breakdowns, you're in complete denial if you think otherwise.

Have you ever seen Gordon finish with his left hand? Maybe 5 or 6 times ever? Have you ever seen him break down a defender 1v1 with a cross over or side step with a fadeaway jumpshot that he could hit regularly?

There's a reason you think he's an elite player who should be compared to Jabari and Wiggins and the rest of the world realizes that he has offensive limitations that will be extremely hard to overcome at the next level and ultimately limit what he will become.

I have no problem with Aaron Gordon on the Celtics. I just don't want us picking him before Embid, Parker, Wiggins, Exum or Smart because his ceiling is simply far lower than any of those guys.

If we are building the Dallas Mavericks and we have the 5th pick, do we take Dirk, or do we take Marion? Simple logic with this kind of talent in the draft.

[playdream]

Chambers, what position does Marion play?  Can Marion create his own shot or even have a natural looking jump shot??  Would you still consider him as one of the better SF/PFs that played in this league the last 10-12 years now?

Gordon is going to play SF in the nba.   Like marion can he create his own shot or have a sweet looking jump shot? well right now he hasn't shown he can on a consistent basis but he is still very young and could develop both of these things.  Still , he can go end to end, he can get to the basket in a straight line but your wrong that he is one of those types that just puts their heads down and doesn't know what their doing. I've seen enough plays of him driving and making difficult passes near the basket or to a jump shooter for easy baskets.  I've seen him direct his point guards  to identify certain plays, matchups to get a better scoring chance. He is constantly thinking while moving on both ends

You know whats another issue/unknown? The guy was not relied upon to score 20 a game.  He was working with his many other talented teammates to win games. Like he said , he doesn't care about individual stats, taking poor shots, taking shots with 25 seconds left in the clock (which guys like Parker, Smart did alot) . He was about execution, making the right plays and not turning over the ball.   He has accomplished alot since the U19 tourney. And to help his team obtain the regular season record they did and carry them to the elite 8 is a pretty darn good accomplishment for a freshman.

But some naysayers like yourself think this is likely the end for him once he gets to the nba. He is going to be a role player, no offense, etc.  For me as long as he keeps winning, it won't matter if he can't score or shoot threes at a high rate.  The kid has proven to be a winner and will do everything possible to win.   Only some players have this kind of luck/quality

So basically you want to pick a *potential* Shawn Marion in Aaron Gordon, and I want to pick a *potential* Paul Pierce in Jabari Parker.
Like I said, I have no problem picking Gordon if we land the 7th or 8th or 9th pick and trade down.
I do however, have a problem picking him with the 4th or 5th pick.
I'm not sure what you don't understand about this.

Shawn Marion is a 4 time All Star who was an excellent scorer in transition with an array of dazzling loop shots and circus moves.
Aaron Gordon doesn't have any of those shots yet. I don't know if he will, but I do know that there aren't many guys in the league like Shawn Marion that have succeeded- he's an extremely rare case.

And I am 100% correct about Aaron Gordon relying on his strength and size instead of his dribbling skill and dribble breakdowns, you're in complete denial if you think otherwise.

Have you ever seen Gordon finish with his left hand? Maybe 5 or 6 times ever? Have you ever seen him break down a defender 1v1 with a cross over or side step with a fadeaway jumpshot that he could hit regularly?

There's a reason you think he's an elite player who should be compared to Jabari and Wiggins and the rest of the world realizes that he has offensive limitations that will be extremely hard to overcome at the next level and ultimately limit what he will become.

I have no problem with Aaron Gordon on the Celtics. I just don't want us picking him before Embid, Parker, Wiggins, Exum or Smart because his ceiling is simply far lower than any of those guys.

If we are building the Dallas Mavericks and we have the 5th pick, do we take Dirk, or do we take Marion? Simple logic with this kind of talent in the draft.

You are not taking Parker at the 5th pick
I don't think you understand what we are discussing about

[chambers]

Chambers, what position does Marion play?  Can Marion create his own shot or even have a natural looking jump shot??  Would you still consider him as one of the better SF/PFs that played in this league the last 10-12 years now?

Gordon is going to play SF in the nba.   Like marion can he create his own shot or have a sweet looking jump shot? well right now he hasn't shown he can on a consistent basis but he is still very young and could develop both of these things.  Still , he can go end to end, he can get to the basket in a straight line but your wrong that he is one of those types that just puts their heads down and doesn't know what their doing. I've seen enough plays of him driving and making difficult passes near the basket or to a jump shooter for easy baskets.  I've seen him direct his point guards  to identify certain plays, matchups to get a better scoring chance. He is constantly thinking while moving on both ends

You know whats another issue/unknown? The guy was not relied upon to score 20 a game.  He was working with his many other talented teammates to win games. Like he said , he doesn't care about individual stats, taking poor shots, taking shots with 25 seconds left in the clock (which guys like Parker, Smart did alot) . He was about execution, making the right plays and not turning over the ball.   He has accomplished alot since the U19 tourney. And to help his team obtain the regular season record they did and carry them to the elite 8 is a pretty darn good accomplishment for a freshman.

But some naysayers like yourself think this is likely the end for him once he gets to the nba. He is going to be a role player, no offense, etc.  For me as long as he keeps winning, it won't matter if he can't score or shoot threes at a high rate.  The kid has proven to be a winner and will do everything possible to win.   Only some players have this kind of luck/quality

So basically you want to pick a *potential* Shawn Marion in Aaron Gordon, and I want to pick a *potential* Paul Pierce in Jabari Parker.
Like I said, I have no problem picking Gordon if we land the 7th or 8th or 9th pick and trade down.
I do however, have a problem picking him with the 4th or 5th pick.
I'm not sure what you don't understand about this.

Shawn Marion is a 4 time All Star who was an excellent scorer in transition with an array of dazzling loop shots and circus moves.
Aaron Gordon doesn't have any of those shots yet. I don't know if he will, but I do know that there aren't many guys in the league like Shawn Marion that have succeeded- he's an extremely rare case.

And I am 100% correct about Aaron Gordon relying on his strength and size instead of his dribbling skill and dribble breakdowns, you're in complete denial if you think otherwise.

Have you ever seen Gordon finish with his left hand? Maybe 5 or 6 times ever? Have you ever seen him break down a defender 1v1 with a cross over or side step with a fadeaway jumpshot that he could hit regularly?

There's a reason you think he's an elite player who should be compared to Jabari and Wiggins and the rest of the world realizes that he has offensive limitations that will be extremely hard to overcome at the next level and ultimately limit what he will become.

I have no problem with Aaron Gordon on the Celtics. I just don't want us picking him before Embid, Parker, Wiggins, Exum or Smart because his ceiling is simply far lower than any of those guys.

If we are building the Dallas Mavericks and we have the 5th pick, do we take Dirk, or do we take Marion? Simple logic with this kind of talent in the draft.

You are not taking Parker at the 5th pick
I don't think you understand what we are discussing about

It's very unlikely we get Jabari with the 5th pick, but triboy is so obsessed with Gordon, he's claimed that we should take Gordon with our pick over guys like Jabari and Wiggins, and subsequently tried to justify that Gordon is more likely to be a better player than these guys.

So no, you don't understand what we are talking about.
He's been saying this stuff for months, talking about the weaknesses of the top 5 in the draft. I don't mind if you like Gordon, but if you're going to try and point holes in other elite prospects games and pretend that Gordon is on the same level as some of these guys then I'm going to have to intervene with a reality check.

I've said countless times that I would take Gordon with the 7th, 8th or 9th pick but because of obvious flaws in his game he's not on the same level as the top 4 whilst triboy seems to think he is. He's a role player.
That's what this argument is about.