can you start Sully KO Randle ?

[The One]

It could work for a short time.

But you're not playing to Randle's strengths.  You're asking him to be less than he could be.

He's a PF, through and through.

[PickNRoll]

No....


Terrible decense that is a ticket to the bottom 5 of 2015. Out of the three front court positions you have to get 1 floor spacer, 1 rim protector, and 1 guy who can defend the perimeter in order to be effective

Floor spacer(shooters) - KO, Sully
Ball handling - sully, ko, randle
Passing- sully, KO
Slasher - Randle, KO, Sully (capable)
Perimeter defense - Randle, KO(help)
Shot blocker - none
Post presence - Sully, Randle
Rebounding - Sully, Randle, KO(better next season)

So not much in terms of shot blocking. Not strong in perimeter defense. But you get alot other wise. Matter of fact you get extra . Look at teams like the heat. That is not a traditional lineup most of the game. With Bosh at C, lebron at pf and wade at sf . Same goes for the spurs of the past with robinson and suncan playing c, Pf when both are centers.

Who is to say a non traditional starting unit cant work?

Floor spacer(shooters) - KO, Sully
Ball handling - Randle (arguably none)
Passing- KO
Slasher - Randle / None
Perimeter defense - Randle
Shot blocker - none
Post presence - Sully, Randle
Rebounding - Sully, Randle

You can only have so many statues on the court who can't perform more than a dribble handoff.  This is the antithesis to what the Heat have done.

[D.o.s.]

I think it's in Simmons's book where it's revealed that going Ultra-Big was Isiah Thomas's strategy when he was the captain on the Knicks Ship(show).


So. Great minds?

[blink]

No....


Terrible decense that is a ticket to the bottom 5 of 2015. Out of the three front court positions you have to get 1 floor spacer, 1 rim protector, and 1 guy who can defend the perimeter in order to be effective

Floor spacer(shooters) - KO, Sully
Ball handling - sully, ko, randle
Passing- sully, KO
Slasher - Randle, KO, Sully (capable)
Perimeter defense - Randle, KO(help)
Shot blocker - none
Post presence - Sully, Randle
Rebounding - Sully, Randle, KO(better next season)

So not much in terms of shot blocking. Not strong in perimeter defense. But you get alot other wise. Matter of fact you get extra . Look at teams like the heat. That is not a traditional lineup most of the game. With Bosh at C, lebron at pf and wade at sf . Same goes for the spurs of the past with robinson and suncan playing c, Pf when both are centers.

Who is to say a non traditional starting unit cant work?

Why don't we add some actual stats to your assumptions and opinion:

Floor spacers - JS 25% 3 point shooting, KO 29% 3 point shooting.  I hope we aren't depending on them to open up the paint for our awesome new "wing" Randle (who is obviously a better ball handler than every 3 he would play against - but wait he isn't...)

Ball handling - JS 1.0 assist to turnover.  KO 1.2 assist per turnover.  J Randle - currently 4.4 TO's per 40 min and turns the ball over at 29% of transition plays.  IE for someone you think is such a great ball handler he turns the ball over almost 1/3 of the time he touches it in transition.


Passing - Yeah Sully and KO are great passers.  That doesn't make the case that one of them or Randle can play the 3.  The video you posted above shows passing as one of Randle's weaknesses.  He can't find the open man when defenses collapse on him in the paint. 

Slasher - I can't even believe you put Sully and KO in this list?  I like both players, but NO WAY are either one of them slashers.  They both have great high BBIQ, but neither has the speed or the ball handling skills to be a wing slasher.  I am lost to how you even suggest that.

Perimeter D - I wasn't able to find any video of Randle playing D against a player in college who would likely be a 3/wing in the NBA.  Where is the evidence that he would make a great wing defender?  You realize that the speed and athleticism in the NBA is leaps and bounds behind the average wing player in the SEC this year right? 

Shot Blocker, Post Presence, and Rebounding...wow those are all qualities you look for in a 4 or a 5.

[jaketwice]

No....


Terrible decense that is a ticket to the bottom 5 of 2015. Out of the three front court positions you have to get 1 floor spacer, 1 rim protector, and 1 guy who can defend the perimeter in order to be effective

Floor spacer(shooters) - KO, Sully
Ball handling - sully, ko, randle
Passing- sully, KO
Slasher - Randle, KO, Sully (capable)
Perimeter defense - Randle, KO(help)
Shot blocker - none
Post presence - Sully, Randle
Rebounding - Sully, Randle, KO(better next season)

So not much in terms of shot blocking. Not strong in perimeter defense. But you get alot other wise. Matter of fact you get extra . Look at teams like the heat. That is not a traditional lineup most of the game. With Bosh at C, lebron at pf and wade at sf . Same goes for the spurs of the past with robinson and suncan playing c, Pf when both are centers.

Who is to say a non traditional starting unit cant work?

Why don't we add some actual stats to your assumptions and opinion:

Floor spacers - JS 25% 3 point shooting, KO 29% 3 point shooting.  I hope we aren't depending on them to open up the paint for our awesome new "wing" Randle (who is obviously a better ball handler than every 3 he would play against - but wait he isn't...)

Ball handling - JS 1.0 assist to turnover.  KO 1.2 assist per turnover.  J Randle - currently 4.4 TO's per 40 min and turns the ball over at 29% of transition plays.  IE for someone you think is such a great ball handler he turns the ball over almost 1/3 of the time he touches it in transition.


Passing - Yeah Sully and KO are great passers.  That doesn't make the case that one of them or Randle can play the 3.  The video you posted above shows passing as one of Randle's weaknesses.  He can't find the open man when defenses collapse on him in the paint. 

Slasher - I can't even believe you put Sully and KO in this list?  I like both players, but NO WAY are either one of them slashers.  They both have great high BBIQ, but neither has the speed or the ball handling skills to be a wing slasher.  I am lost to how you even suggest that.

Perimeter D - I wasn't able to find any video of Randle playing D against a player in college who would likely be a 3/wing in the NBA.  Where is the evidence that he would make a great wing defender?  You realize that the speed and athleticism in the NBA is leaps and bounds behind the average wing player in the SEC this year right? 

Shot Blocker, Post Presence, and Rebounding...wow those are all qualities you look for in a 4 or a 5.

This goes to a point that I have been making steadily: KO's ability to stay on the Celtics (and in the NBA) depends on his ability to develop a three point shot. ...now I realize I am hijacking this thread a little - but the poster above is correct that his 3P% is sub-par.

The issue with Randle, or anyone else we may draft, is that SULLINGER is a Power Forward, we need a Center, and so KO needs to be able to play SF for big stretches. Or he needs to magically develop some fierce lateral quickness (which won't happen).

Literally the only way that any line-up with KO in it works is if he can space the floor with 3p shooting.

Here is the other question: if you took Randle, would you believe that Sullinger could keep opposing centers from the basket? ...I say no. But I'd be interested in opinions. Because Randle is a PF, and you would have to play Sully at Center.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Why would we play Julius Randle out of position?

Randle's lateral quickness is good, against opponent PF's. Just because he's quick on his feet does not mean he can cover quicker wing players.

[Tr1boy]

Why would we play Julius Randle out of position?

Randle's lateral quickness is good, against opponent PF's. Just because he's quick on his feet does not mean he can cover quicker wing players.

Would playing Terence Jones from the rockets at the SF be considered playing him out of position?  How about Josh Smith?

If Josh Smith who is playing SF now had either Drummond or Monroe be able to hit a jump shot at a decent rate, things would be more balanced and be able to work at Detroit

Randle is playing PF in college. He has to play C sometimes also. It doesn't mean he is definitely one or the other. When you watch him grab the rebound and go end to end, that is not really what a PF in the nba can do.  He has pretty good handles and quickness not only for his size but in comparison to other bigger sized/older SFs. Like many have said already, sure he might get burnt guarding a few quick ones, but what about them trying to cover Randle on the defensive end??

How are teams going to cover Sullinger, KO and Randle on the defensive end?? You got KO who is going to pull either a PF or C out to the perimeter. Sullinger will likely post up or can also come out to the perimeter and shoot. Randle then could take his SF defender off the dribble or post them up  , and just pretty much crush him imo. If you double team him , then Sullinger and Olynyk are free for the open jump shot

Until we get a worthy starting center (embiid or asik as exmaple), if we drafted Randle this is the C,PF,SF starting unit i envision for next year (with hopefully Jeff Green traded). No more of having Bass start. Humphries likely won't be back but if he is, really should be coming off the bench.

Worse case you have a nice trio of KO, Sully and Randle working the C/PF for the shor term

[jaketwice]

Why would we play Julius Randle out of position?

Randle's lateral quickness is good, against opponent PF's. Just because he's quick on his feet does not mean he can cover quicker wing players.

Would playing Terence Jones from the rockets at the SF be considered playing him out of position?  How about Josh Smith?

If Josh Smith who is playing SF now had either Drummond or Monroe be able to hit a jump shot at a decent rate, things would be more balanced and be able to work at Detroit

Randle is playing PF in college. He has to play C sometimes also. It doesn't mean he is definitely one or the other. When you watch him grab the rebound and go end to end, that is not really what a PF in the nba can do.  He has pretty good handles and quickness not only for his size but in comparison to other bigger sized/older SFs. Like many have said already, sure he might get burnt guarding a few quick ones, but what about them trying to cover Randle on the defensive end??

How are teams going to cover Sullinger, KO and Randle on the defensive end?? You got KO who is going to pull either a PF or C out to the perimeter. Sullinger will likely post up or can also come out to the perimeter and shoot. Randle then could take his SF defender off the dribble or post them up  , and just pretty much crush him imo. If you double team him , then Sullinger and Olynyk are free for the open jump shot

Until we get a worthy starting center (embiid or asik as exmaple), if we drafted Randle this is the C,PF,SF starting unit i envision for next year (with hopefully Jeff Green traded). No more of having Bass start. Humphries likely won't be back but if he is, really should be coming off the bench.

Worse case you have a nice trio of KO, Sully and Randle working the C/PF for the shor term

But how would you space the floor? Rondo just inbounds the ball (can't drive with all those guys who need to be close to the basket, right?) and then someone pump fakes and puts it in.

The problem is you could just overload the strong side. With that line-up (assuming Rondo is the PG) you can have only one 3P shooter (who we don't even have yet). It would just be a total melange below - and whether you could swing it to a shooter would depend totally on where the double came from.

Seems to me that would generate fewer points than having two-three credible outside threats on the wings. One of those is not Rondo.

If Olynyk could be that second outside threat then I think it makes MORE sense - but just bear in mind that you are asking Sullinger to play center (I think he is probably savvier than Randle at this stage, and more able to play that position). We would give up a lot of size in that event - and put Sully at injury risk.

Of course, Olynyk would also lose a lot guarding the three at the other end.

If we are built with Rondo as our PG, the team needs to recognize that and keep driving lanes open for him... ...or else you squander a huge part of his value.

[Tr1boy]

Why would we play Julius Randle out of position?

Randle's lateral quickness is good, against opponent PF's. Just because he's quick on his feet does not mean he can cover quicker wing players.

Would playing Terence Jones from the rockets at the SF be considered playing him out of position?  How about Josh Smith?

If Josh Smith who is playing SF now had either Drummond or Monroe be able to hit a jump shot at a decent rate, things would be more balanced and be able to work at Detroit

Randle is playing PF in college. He has to play C sometimes also. It doesn't mean he is definitely one or the other. When you watch him grab the rebound and go end to end, that is not really what a PF in the nba can do.  He has pretty good handles and quickness not only for his size but in comparison to other bigger sized/older SFs. Like many have said already, sure he might get burnt guarding a few quick ones, but what about them trying to cover Randle on the defensive end??

How are teams going to cover Sullinger, KO and Randle on the defensive end?? You got KO who is going to pull either a PF or C out to the perimeter. Sullinger will likely post up or can also come out to the perimeter and shoot. Randle then could take his SF defender off the dribble or post them up  , and just pretty much crush him imo. If you double team him , then Sullinger and Olynyk are free for the open jump shot

Until we get a worthy starting center (embiid or asik as exmaple), if we drafted Randle this is the C,PF,SF starting unit i envision for next year (with hopefully Jeff Green traded). No more of having Bass start. Humphries likely won't be back but if he is, really should be coming off the bench.

Worse case you have a nice trio of KO, Sully and Randle working the C/PF for the shor term

But how would you space the floor? Rondo just inbounds the ball (can't drive with all those guys who need to be close to the basket, right?) and then someone pump fakes and puts it in.

The problem is you could just overload the strong side. With that line-up (assuming Rondo is the PG) you can have only one 3P shooter (who we don't even have yet). It would just be a total melange below - and whether you could swing it to a shooter would depend totally on where the double came from.

Seems to me that would generate fewer points than having two-three credible outside threats on the wings. One of those is not Rondo.

If Olynyk could be that second outside threat then I think it makes MORE sense - but just bear in mind that you are asking Sullinger to play center (I think he is probably savvier than Randle at this stage, and more able to play that position). We would give up a lot of size in that event - and put Sully at injury risk.

Of course, Olynyk would also lose a lot guarding the three at the other end.

If we are built with Rondo as our PG, the team needs to recognize that and keep driving lanes open for him... ...or else you squander a huge part of his value.

You have Olynyk out in the perimeter near the three pt line. Its the way he plays now and i doubt will change any time soon. So you bring out his man . Olynyk can shoot if you haven't notice. He is getting better and better

Sullinger can operate on the left side of the basket. Randle on the right side.  Then you have a 3 pt shooter on the corner etc.   This could make Rondo's life easier also as he can feed either sully or randle down low. As they get closer to the basket, likely some help defense will come which then Olynyk, 3pt shooter or Rondo can expect a pass for a jump shot. Or you can also play the PnR game with all three players.For example Rondo and Olynyk do a PNR and now Ko can do so many things (options down low to feed randle, sullinger, pass to 3 pt shooter) it will drive opponents crazy

The spacing can work. Its not having two or three shooters around the key like you usually see, but having two post players to pass to, or PNR hell.

To answer your last point about Sullinger having issues guarding Centers. Yes it will happen. But instead of having soft Jeff Green trying to help you out or grab rebounds in case your boxing out/out of position, now you have Randle that can do the job.  Olynyk will improve his rebounding next season. 

[D.o.s.]

Randle is playing PF in college. He has to play C sometimes also. It doesn't mean he is definitely one or the other. When you watch him grab the rebound and go end to end, that is not really what a PF in the nba can do

Are you too young to have watched Chris Webber?

A Sully/KO/Randle frontcourt has enough issues defensively to even consider worrying about how they would work on offense.

[Tr1boy]

Only way we can get burnt is if the opposing team has three 3 pt shooters lined up around the three pt line, that can also slash to the basket and one Centers to handle the dirty job down low. For example the blazers.

But in turn they will also suffer on the defensive end trying to contain sullinger and randle.  If this was my opponent, i would tell Sullinger and Randle to take in into the rim/post up and get the other team in foul trouble

[Tr1boy]

Randle is playing PF in college. He has to play C sometimes also. It doesn't mean he is definitely one or the other. When you watch him grab the rebound and go end to end, that is not really what a PF in the nba can do

Are you too young to have watched Chris Webber?

A Sully/KO/Randle frontcourt has enough issues defensively to even consider worrying about how they would work on offense.

How many times in the NBA did Webber go end to end? I also saw him get burnt several times in PNR situations. 

Randle is quicker than Webber. Randle quickness is comparable to that of Bass, who has the capabilities to guard many sfs in the nba

[D.o.s.]

So I take it the answer is "yes, I was too young to watch Chris Webber."

[Tr1boy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbGqhtI3RrQ

If you didn't know what position he played, watching the clip above one might think he is a SF out there. Nice pass at 1:45 , for those that think he can't pass a lick

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Why would we play Julius Randle out of position?

Randle's lateral quickness is good, against opponent PF's. Just because he's quick on his feet does not mean he can cover quicker wing players.

Would playing Terence Jones from the rockets at the SF be considered playing him out of position?  How about Josh Smith?

If Josh Smith who is playing SF now had either Drummond or Monroe be able to hit a jump shot at a decent rate, things would be more balanced and be able to work at Detroit

Yes. Terrence Jones is a quick PF, doesnt mean you put him at the three. He's not quick enough to guard the wings. He's very quick against his fellow PF's though. If you put him at the SF spot, he'll get burned by Durant, Iguodala and other wings. Also, just because your quick doesnt mean you can slide down right away. His game, like Randle's, is based on pounding the ball inside. Getting rebounds, doing the dirty work down low and running the floor better than other bigs. You're going to take away his strengths if you put him in the wings. Add to it that, like Randle, he's not a very good shooter, so you're not spacing the floor

Josh Smith IS a SF who's better at PF. I think we can't use that argument as he came in as a 3, played as a 3 and just was much more effective at the 4 so he's used as such.

You keep on saying it's like Bass. Bass is quick enough to guard 3's. The only SF's that Bass guarded are LeBron and Carmelo. He was good against Melo, but Melo is a slow SF. LeBron took him easy. You're putting Randle in that predicament. Heck, you put Randle against Jeff Green one on one on ISO, you're asking for trouble.

He's quick, but he's not Wing position quick. His game is not that of a wing guy. He can play the 3 of course, but you're not going to maximize his abilities, and more, will be a liability defensively.