Poll about Rondo - Celtics Best Player 2011-2012?

[sunnyd656]

As said, our most "Valuable" player was probably KG just because of the defense intensity everyone seemed to get.

As far as our "best" player - was easily and far away Rondo. I'd even go as far as putting him as the best player of the whole Playoffs. He was literally unstoppable.

Or in other words, Garnett was really the best player, but Rondo filled up the stat sheet.

I guess? It's hard for me to say with 100% certainty that without KG we wouldn't have done as good, because you can't measure intensity. Stat's don't lie though, and while 20/10 is nothing to blow off, 17/12/7 is hall of fame numbers.

[kozlodoev]

As said, our most "Valuable" player was probably KG just because of the defense intensity everyone seemed to get.

As far as our "best" player - was easily and far away Rondo. I'd even go as far as putting him as the best player of the whole Playoffs. He was literally unstoppable.

Or in other words, Garnett was really the best player, but Rondo filled up the stat sheet.

I guess? It's hard for me to say with 100% certainty that without KG we wouldn't have done as good, because you can't measure intensity. Stat's don't lie though, and while 20/10 is nothing to blow off, 17/12/7 is hall of fame numbers.

Sure they do.

[Boris Badenov]

I started this poll thinking that I had come up with a very simple yes or no question.  I don't get all the comments along the lines of x was best but y was most valuable.

This isn't about how good someone's back up is (which is part of the most valuable consideration I guess).  Who is the best player?

Help me out here.  How can I word this so it is as clear and simple as I wanted it to be?

You can't. If you want to know why, see my earlier post.

I agree, this is actually a complicated question (but a good one, TP for the honest effort).

For me the confounding issue is that KG morphed from good to phenomenal over the course of the year, and into the playoffs. His plus-minus during the playoffs was absolutely astounding...maybe the best ever since they've tracked that.

On the other hand Rondo had a terrific year overall, and also was nothing short of brilliant in the playoffs.

That's my read anyway. I guess for the regular season I'd give Rondo a slight edge, but taking playoff performance into account I see it as a draw between Rondo and Garnett.

[LarBrd33]

All of our success during our micro-dynasty came from our defense. 

The team fell apart unless KG was doing his thing.  Even in 2009 when Ray, Paul and Rondo were close to their peak, those three all-star level players BARELY were able to knock off a weaksauce Chicago team with Glen Davis filling the KG role.

By 2011-12, everyone had slipped a little.  Rondo was still 2009 Rondo.  But our team still had their "success" (if you want to call beating the Hawks and 76ers "success") from their defense.   You remove KG from the equation, it all falls apart. You remove Pierce from the equation, they'd have trouble scoring.  You remove Rondo from the equation, the team would still manage to score in different ways and the defense would still remain effective.

The biggest component was Kevin Garnett.  He went vintage in the 2012 playoffs.  Rondo got his stats, but that team would have been toast without KG's resurgence.  And it's stuff like that why Brooklyn currently had the 6th seed, they allow 7 less points with KG on the floor... and you can't bet against the Nets in the playoffs this year.   Meanwhile Boston is 2-11 with Rondo running the show... 4th worst record in the league.  Only victories coming against Orlando and Philly.  We're dreadful without someone anchoring our defense. 

KG was the "best player".  If you asked "who put up the most stats" (without adjusted minutes), I'd answer Rondo.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Yes.

And especially during the Playoffs.

[Roy H.]

KG was our best overall player, the Captain was our best offensive player.

Rondo had a TS% of .483 that season (44.8% FG%), and turned the ball over on an estimated 23% of possessions.  He had the worst offensive rating of any of the starters, and he only averaged 12 points per game.

Rondo was fantastic in the playoffs.  He was right there with KG.  In terms of his regular season, though, it was sub-par by his standards, and by the standards set by KG and PP.  It's weird to say somebody who led the league in assists had a down year, but 2012 was not Rondo at his peak.  Plus, he missed 20% of the season due to injuries.

I think people might be misremembering Rondo's season a bit, due to his great playoff run.  He was our third best regular season player, and it wasn't particularly close.  (Rondo was well behind Pierce and KG in terms of PER, win shares, win shares per minute, offensive rating, point differential while on the floor, etc.)

[sunnyd656]

I actually misread title and thought it was specifically the playoffs.
Won't argue about regular season. Will argue Rondo being best player in playoffs.

[TwinTower14]

It's not really close, KG was the rare superstar who didn't have to score to be the best player on the floor most nights. He was the best player the C's had from the minute he put a C's jersey to the time he was traded....

[Vermont Green]

So I am still confused by the Best vs. Most Valuable thing.

If you were at the playground just before the 2011-12 season and you were picking teams for the whole year (season + playoffs) and your goal was to win the title, who would you pick to be on the team?  Would you pick Rondo before you picked KG, PP or any other Celtics player?

When you are drafting a player, do you draft the player you think will be the best player or do you draft the player you think will be the most valuable player?  What is the difference?

Another angle.  You can debate whether or not LeBron is more valuable to the Heat than Durant is to the Thunder because they are on different teams but one is better and would be picked first to be on a new team (as a hypothetical).  Or if they were both on the same team, one would be better and more valuable.  I don't see how you could argue that Durant is better but LeBron is more valuable.

I don't know, I just don't see how a simple question can be made into something complicated.

[D.o.s.]

It's not complicated, the problem is that there wasn't an explicit definition of "best" in your original post.

For example, you have one end of the spectrum: the 2009 LeBron-led Cavs. They went 61-21. LeBron was the Best player on that team. hands down. no question. Absolutely no debate.

Then, on the other end of the spectrum, you have a team like last year's Denver Nuggets. Who's the best player on that team? Gallo? Lawson? Iggy?  You can make a convincing argument for almost any of their starters, and you really can't say that one is head and shoulders more important that the others.

The 2011-2012 Celtics are much closer to a Nuggets team than a LeBron Cavs team. That's where the debate comes from.

[LarBrd33]

KG was our best overall player, the Captain was our best offensive player.

Rondo had a TS% of .483 that season (44.8% FG%), and turned the ball over on an estimated 23% of possessions.  He had the worst offensive rating of any of the starters, and he only averaged 12 points per game.

Rondo was fantastic in the playoffs.  He was right there with KG.  In terms of his regular season, though, it was sub-par by his standards, and by the standards set by KG and PP.  It's weird to say somebody who led the league in assists had a down year, but 2012 was not Rondo at his peak.  Plus, he missed 20% of the season due to injuries.

I think people might be misremembering Rondo's season a bit, due to his great playoff run.  He was our third best regular season player, and it wasn't particularly close.  (Rondo was well behind Pierce and KG in terms of PER, win shares, win shares per minute, offensive rating, point differential while on the floor, etc.)

part of the reason we remember that playoff run so fondly is because Rondo upped his minutes a ridiculous 43 per game.  It inflated his stats, but on a per-minute basis he was basically the same player.  Also it helps when you're being defended by sub-par talent. It skews the stats a bit when you're going against Mario Chalmers and Miami is focusing on stopping everyone other than you.

[LilRip]

Great poll. I voted no.

While Rondo did step up at times and deserved some "Player of the Game" awards, KG was the identity of that team. The C's would go only as far as he could take them.

Using that method of "take this guy out and what would happen", I think that if you took KG out and replaced him with Big Baby or another Brandon Bass, we might not get past the first or 2nd round. Take Rondo out and replace him with another Avery Bradley and we'd still get eliminated by Miami.

[mmmmm]

KG was our best overall player, the Captain was our best offensive player.

Rondo had a TS% of .483 that season (44.8% FG%), and turned the ball over on an estimated 23% of possessions.  He had the worst offensive rating of any of the starters, and he only averaged 12 points per game.

Rondo was fantastic in the playoffs.  He was right there with KG.  In terms of his regular season, though, it was sub-par by his standards, and by the standards set by KG and PP.  It's weird to say somebody who led the league in assists had a down year, but 2012 was not Rondo at his peak.  Plus, he missed 20% of the season due to injuries.

I think people might be misremembering Rondo's season a bit, due to his great playoff run.  He was our third best regular season player, and it wasn't particularly close.  (Rondo was well behind Pierce and KG in terms of PER, win shares, win shares per minute, offensive rating, point differential while on the floor, etc.)

part of the reason we remember that playoff run so fondly is because Rondo upped his minutes a ridiculous 43 per game.  It inflated his stats, but on a per-minute basis he was basically the same player.  Also it helps when you're being defended by sub-par talent. It skews the stats a bit when you're going against Mario Chalmers and Miami is focusing on stopping everyone other than you.

Rondo, 2011-2012, per-36 numbers:

Regular season (36.9 mpg)
pts/36:  11.9
as/36:   11.4 (AST% 52.5%)
trb/36:    4.7
stl/36:    1.7
tov/36:   3.6

Playoffs (42.6 mpg)
pts/36:  14.6
as/36:   10.1  (AST% 54.0%)
trb/36:    5.7
stl/36:    2.0
tov/36:   3.2

Hmm... nope.   Rondo's rates of production generally went UP in those playoffs.  Slight decrease in assist/min rate (though an increase in AST%).  TOV/min rate also went down.

Yes, it definitely helps when defended by sub-par talent.  I think most of us would agree that Chalmers is inferior to Rondo.   That's often the case when a really good player near the top at his position plays.   'Not sure how that is relevant to anything.

Are Lebron's statistics somehow less impressive because he is by far the superior talent against everyone he plays?

Note - I don't have a big dog in this fight.  I had my own thread later that very 2012 summer on this exact topic (who was the Celtics 'best player' at the time) and came down on the KG side of this three-sided debate (though I think the argument is closer than some would think).   But I think you are misrepresenting how well Rondo played during those playoffs.

[2short]

tie between he and kg
both had ups and downs
both do things that don't show up in stats

if push came to shove i'd pick kg then rr

wait does this mean we should trade rondo when gms read this 

[Vox_Populi]

I still don't know why we say that Chalmers guarded Rondo. After Game 2, it was primarily Wade, who was one of the best defensive guards at the time. I mean, Van Gundy even points it out during the broadcast.

My opinion on most valuable vs. best is that the former can change due to circumstances but the latter is usually constant. Usually.