MJ

[BballTim]

kobe was a Jordan replica, his game every bit as good...just didn't have the killer instinct or the guts of Jordan

I almost see it as the opposite.  I've always thought that Kobe had the killer instinct and the guts, he just didn't quite have the game that MJ had.  MJ was simply more skilled.

Both had tremendous egos, but Jordan was more willing to suppress his for the good of the team.  You didn't see Jordan taking many potential game-winners when he was triple-covered; he was more likely to pass to an open teammate.  Kobe never had that desire to pass.

  I wouldn't say MJ supressed his ego for the good of the team. I can remember once or twice where someone would get close to him in ppg and he'd go on a scoring binge until he was comfortably ahead. As a player, though, he was well better than Kobe. Kobe as a player was probably closer to PP's level than MJ's.

[BballTim]

if MJ played with today's rules and the hand checking fouls that are called he would average close to 40 pts a night.  He is the best basketball player to ever suit up.  You can make the case that the teams that he beat in the finals, would beat any recent NBA champion.  The league was so much better back then...

  I'm pretty sure they had a rule when MJ was playing that if the center on offense was outside of the three point line the guy guarding him had to be outside of the foul line. With rules like that Dr J might have averaged 40 in MJ's era. Whether he was the best player ever is clearly debatable. Bird, for instance, was much better at shooting, passing and rebounding than MJ was.

[Vox_Populi]

IMO Jordan was the best, I put a lot of stock in what other greats say and they all seem to agree that Jordan was the king of the hill...

I factor this in too. His contemporaries and predecessors all had big egos since, they are among the best ever. But he's almost unanimously considered the best.

And it's completely true. Jordan was a demon on both sides of the ball.

[TwinTower14]

kobe was a Jordan replica, his game every bit as good...just didn't have the killer instinct or the guts of Jordan

I almost see it as the opposite.  I've always thought that Kobe had the killer instinct and the guts, he just didn't quite have the game that MJ had.  MJ was simply more skilled.

Both had tremendous egos, but Jordan was more willing to suppress his for the good of the team.  You didn't see Jordan taking many potential game-winners when he was triple-covered; he was more likely to pass to an open teammate.  Kobe never had that desire to pass.

  I wouldn't say MJ supressed his ego for the good of the team. I can remember once or twice where someone would get close to him in ppg and he'd go on a scoring binge until he was comfortably ahead. As a player, though, he was well better than Kobe. Kobe as a player was probably closer to PP's level than MJ's.

really? who was close to him in PPG? Pippen never averaged more than 22 PPG, the lowest Jordan averaged was 27.  Be really tough to make up 5 pts a game during a season.  I take it that you don't like Jordan? As it pertains to Jordan vs Bird for shooting.  Bird shot better from 3 but they both shot 50% for their careers from the field.  Jordan was a better defender and a much better scorer than Bird...

[TwinTower14]

I don't want to bash Larry Bird because I love him and the C's but he was not the player Jordan was.  Jordan was the best of the best and Bird is in that next tier from 2-7 when it comes to the greats of all-time...

[TwinTower14]

kobe was a Jordan replica, his game every bit as good...just didn't have the killer instinct or the guts of Jordan

I almost see it as the opposite.  I've always thought that Kobe had the killer instinct and the guts, he just didn't quite have the game that MJ had.  MJ was simply more skilled.

Both had tremendous egos, but Jordan was more willing to suppress his for the good of the team.  You didn't see Jordan taking many potential game-winners when he was triple-covered; he was more likely to pass to an open teammate.  Kobe never had that desire to pass.

  I wouldn't say MJ supressed his ego for the good of the team. I can remember once or twice where someone would get close to him in ppg and he'd go on a scoring binge until he was comfortably ahead. As a player, though, he was well better than Kobe. Kobe as a player was probably closer to PP's level than MJ's.

really? who was close to him in PPG? Pippen never averaged more than 22 PPG, the lowest Jordan averaged was 27.  Be really tough to make up 5 pts a game during a season.  I take it that you don't like Jordan? As it pertains to Jordan vs Bird for shooting.  Bird shot better from 3 but they both shot 50% for their careers from the field.  Jordan was a better defender and a much better scorer than Bird...

I read this wrong - my fault, I thought you were talking about teammates....

[GreenWarrior]

I think it's kind of difficult to say who the best is/was. because of era's.

I do however put a lot of stock into championships won. and by that standard I have to put Russell up there regardless of the level of competition and era.

but championships aren't the only measuring stick, because if that were the case Robert horry might be like the 2nd best player ever...doesn't he have like 10 rings?

I calculate dominance into the equation too. Russell and Jordan both dominated and have the championships to boot. so I kind of feel it's Russell 1a and Jordan 1b.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Jordan had a season when he averaged 32.5 points / 8.0 rebounds / 8.0 assists / 2.9 steals / 53.8% FG%

... and that arguably wasn't even his best year individually.

I remember a saw a stat. In the 1993 NBA Finals, his numbers for the series are...

41 points, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.7 blocks, 51% shooting, 40% 3PT.

I mean talk about unreal.

[TwinTower14]

Jordan had a season when he averaged 32.5 points / 8.0 rebounds / 8.0 assists / 2.9 steals / 53.8% FG%

... and that arguably wasn't even his best year individually.

go look at his 86/87 season.  Could be the best in NBA history.  37.1 ppg, 5 rebounds, 4.6 assist, 1.5 blks, 2.9 steals.  48% from the field, 87% from the line and played in all 82 games. 

I remember a saw a stat. In the 1993 NBA Finals, his numbers for the series are...

41 points, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.7 blocks, 51% shooting, 40% 3PT.

I mean talk about unreal.

[BballTim]

kobe was a Jordan replica, his game every bit as good...just didn't have the killer instinct or the guts of Jordan

I almost see it as the opposite.  I've always thought that Kobe had the killer instinct and the guts, he just didn't quite have the game that MJ had.  MJ was simply more skilled.

Both had tremendous egos, but Jordan was more willing to suppress his for the good of the team.  You didn't see Jordan taking many potential game-winners when he was triple-covered; he was more likely to pass to an open teammate.  Kobe never had that desire to pass.

  I wouldn't say MJ supressed his ego for the good of the team. I can remember once or twice where someone would get close to him in ppg and he'd go on a scoring binge until he was comfortably ahead. As a player, though, he was well better than Kobe. Kobe as a player was probably closer to PP's level than MJ's.

really? who was close to him in PPG? Pippen never averaged more than 22 PPG, the lowest Jordan averaged was 27.  Be really tough to make up 5 pts a game during a season.  I take it that you don't like Jordan? As it pertains to Jordan vs Bird for shooting.  Bird shot better from 3 but they both shot 50% for their careers from the field.  Jordan was a better defender and a much better scorer than Bird...

  Probably Nique. Bird was a much better shooter than MJ, who took a large number of shots at the rim. Jordan was a better defender. He was a better scorer as well although Bird (who truly did suppress his ego for the good of the team) was always capable of scoring much more than he did.

[oldmanspeaks]

As an old guy I have seen all the players from Russell and Wilt to the present. MJ may have been the most overall skilled. However he got away with some much stuff that I have a real hard time saying he was the best player. If I was the ref, he would have fouled out of nearly every game. For example,the fact that he was allowed to grab the hand of the defensive player and yank is a complete travesty of the game. He continually got away with hooking, etc.
Don't get me wrong. Superstars in the NBA always got away with more than the average player. I remember Bird jumping back into a player so far that he almost landed on his ass and yet they called the defender for "over the back". However with Jordan the league (not the refs) determined he was the star and simply redefined the rules.
Secondly all superstars are divas. From Russell on diva behavior is the norm. However Russell was also the ultimate team player. Jordan was not as he always had to be top dog and it would be a Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. to play with him. I saw Russell, Robertson, etc sacrifice their own games to make their teammates better. To the top "player" you have to be the top "team player" to be considered the best of all time.

[gift]

Jordan was great but I have always felt that part of that greatness was what he got away with that others could not.  They're not called the 'Jordan Rules' for nothing.  That's where he takes the hit from my perspective--an uneven playing ground due to the hype (deserved) surrounding him.

You do know what the Jordan rules were, right? It was basically a defensive strategy devised by Chuck Daly to be very physical (illegal in today's NBA) in order to keep Jordan in check.

Later a book was written and the Jordan rules also became thought of as a different standard that applied to MJ but not everyone else. I think the original Jordan rules actually show how great Jordan was that he was able to overcome essentially hard, physical, sometimes illegal play by leading his team, playing together and taking over games when it mattered.

[Boris Badenov]

Jordan had a season when he averaged 32.5 points / 8.0 rebounds / 8.0 assists / 2.9 steals / 53.8% FG%

... and that arguably wasn't even his best year individually.

I remember a saw a stat. In the 1993 NBA Finals, his numbers for the series are...

41 points, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.7 blocks, 51% shooting, 40% 3PT.

I mean talk about unreal.

How about this one. We've had many conversations about how it's tougher to perform in the playoffs - other teams are much better, and the overall intensity is greater.

Setting aside his rookie year, Jordan averaged more than 30ppg in the playoffs in 12 consecutive seasons - which probably would have been 15-16 if he hadn't cut his career short. He did this on nearly 50% shooting.

[Smitty77]

Jordan had a season when he averaged 32.5 points / 8.0 rebounds / 8.0 assists / 2.9 steals / 53.8% FG%

... and that arguably wasn't even his best year individually.

I remember a saw a stat. In the 1993 NBA Finals, his numbers for the series are...

41 points, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.7 blocks, 51% shooting, 40% 3PT.

I mean talk about unreal.

How about this one. We've had many conversations about how it's tougher to perform in the playoffs - other teams are much better, and the overall intensity is greater.

Setting aside his rookie year, Jordan averaged more than 30ppg in the playoffs in 12 consecutive seasons - which probably would have been 15-16 if he hadn't cut his career short. He did this on nearly 50% shooting.

Boris,

Please read Sam Smith concerning Stern demanding MJ leave the NBA due to his gambling issues.  MJ did NOT cut HIS career short!!!  However, you could say that he did cut his career short due to his gambling addictions and propensity to hang out with drug king pins on SC golf courses!!!

Smitty77

[TwinTower14]

Jordan had a season when he averaged 32.5 points / 8.0 rebounds / 8.0 assists / 2.9 steals / 53.8% FG%

... and that arguably wasn't even his best year individually.

I remember a saw a stat. In the 1993 NBA Finals, his numbers for the series are...

41 points, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.7 blocks, 51% shooting, 40% 3PT.

I mean talk about unreal.

How about this one. We've had many conversations about how it's tougher to perform in the playoffs - other teams are much better, and the overall intensity is greater.

Setting aside his rookie year, Jordan averaged more than 30ppg in the playoffs in 12 consecutive seasons - which probably would have been 15-16 if he hadn't cut his career short. He did this on nearly 50% shooting.

Boris,

Please read Sam Smith concerning Stern demanding MJ leave the NBA due to his gambling issues.  MJ did NOT cut HIS career short!!!  However, you could say that he did cut his career short due to his gambling addictions and propensity to hang out with drug king pins on SC golf courses!!!

Smitty77

To me that proves his cases even stronger - did a three peat, took two years off ( for whatever reasons, I guess we will never know ) came back and did it again.  If he didn't have those issues, he would have rattled off 8 titles in a row. Just take a minute and go through Jordan's stats? they are completely insane.  I said it earlier, I put a ton of stock in what his peers say and almost all of them say he is the best.  I have seen Bird say that on several occasions..