MJ

[Fafnir]

kobe was a Jordan replica, his game every bit as good...just didn't have the killer instinct or the guts of Jordan

I almost see it as the opposite.  I've always thought that Kobe had the killer instinct and the guts, he just didn't quite have the game that MJ had.  MJ was simply more skilled.

Both had tremendous egos, but Jordan was more willing to suppress his for the good of the team.  You didn't see Jordan taking many potential game-winners when he was triple-covered; he was more likely to pass to an open teammate.  Kobe never had that desire to pass.

Yup. Jordan was a better athlete, had bigger hands, and was more disciplined offensively. He also consistently defended far better than Kobe did.

[TwinTower14]

if MJ played with today's rules and the hand checking fouls that are called he would average close to 40 pts a night.  He is the best basketball player to ever suit up.  You can make the case that the teams that he beat in the finals, would beat any recent NBA champion.  The league was so much better back then...

[Fafnir]

if MJ played with today's rules and the hand checking fouls that are called he would average close to 40 pts a night.  He is the best basketball player to ever suit up.  You can make the case that the teams that he beat in the finals, would beat any recent NBA champion.  The league was so much better back then...

I think teams today would wax them, hard overall.

Teams back then didn't use the 3 point shot as a weapon. They would be ill equipped to handle the league as its current playing. Changes the game immensely.

[gift]

One of the many problems with these types of questions is how you define greatness? Is it best peak performance, most awards/records, winning/championships, highest average performance over the length of a career, dominance vs skill, image/perception, impact on the league?

When we talk about who the best is, we all weigh these different factors differently. Selecting the best ever would be relatively easy if we were all applying the same standard (winning=russell, image=mj, longevity=kareem?). So what the conversation really is about is what determines greatness, not who is the greatest.

[TwinTower14]

if MJ played with today's rules and the hand checking fouls that are called he would average close to 40 pts a night.  He is the best basketball player to ever suit up.  You can make the case that the teams that he beat in the finals, would beat any recent NBA champion.  The league was so much better back then...

I think teams today would wax them, hard overall.

Teams back then didn't use the 3 point shot as a weapon. They would be ill equipped to handle the league as its current playing. Changes the game immensely.

I disagree - I would take those Utah, Portland and PHX teams over any recent NBA champ.  I will concede the Laker team, they were on their last legs. 

The game has changed so much but I don't think those teams would have a hard time adjusting to the 3pt shot.  Some great shooters on those teams ( Stockton, Hornacek, Kerr, Porter, Ainge, Hawkins, Schrempf and Perkins ) all very good shooters...

[TwinTower14]

I left off the Seattle team by accident...

[Roy H.]

Jordan had a season when he averaged 32.5 points / 8.0 rebounds / 8.0 assists / 2.9 steals / 53.8% FG%

... and that arguably wasn't even his best year individually. 

[D.o.s.]

Bill Russell of course.  Is this a joke?

Without all the hoopla and marketability, Jordan is not even close. 

I would say he's the most popular basketball player of all time.  I'll give him that.

He didn't win a championship until Pippen came to town (sort of thesame thing peoole often accuse Lebron of)

Bill Russell won 11 rings as a player and a coach and was better than a guy that is head and shoulders above everyone in Wilt.  And you people are mentioning Jordan?

Ps.  And they didn't record block stats in Russell's days!!!

The problem is that roughly seven and a half people ever watched Russell or Wilt play.

[Fafnir]

Jordan had a season when he averaged 32.5 points / 8.0 rebounds / 8.0 assists / 2.9 steals / 53.8% FG%

... and that arguably wasn't even his best year individually.

Yup.

Remember Kobe got a whopping 1 MVP in a year when Chris Paul, LBJ, Dwight Howard, and KG were all better players as a career achievement award.

MJ stopped getting them because people were tired of checking the box next to his name.

[TwinTower14]

Jordan had a season when he averaged 32.5 points / 8.0 rebounds / 8.0 assists / 2.9 steals / 53.8% FG%

... and that arguably wasn't even his best year individually.

I was just on basketball reference looking at his stats again....it's unreal how good he was.  Match that with how clutch he was, his competitive drive to beat the best every time he took the floor and the elite defense and it's no question he is the best player I have ever laid eyes on in my 32 years of being on this earth....

[TwinTower14]

Jordan had a season when he averaged 32.5 points / 8.0 rebounds / 8.0 assists / 2.9 steals / 53.8% FG%

... and that arguably wasn't even his best year individually.

Yup.

KG should have gotten the MVP his first year in Boston, I completely agree...
Remember Kobe got a whopping 1 MVP in a year when Chris Paul, LBJ, Dwight Howard, and KG were all better players as a career achievement award.

MJ stopped getting them because people were tired of checking the box next to his name.

[Celtics17]

Identifying the greatest basketball player of all time isnt so easy. Arguments can be made in many directions for numerous reasons bu if MJ wasnt the best he was very close.

Personally I have always thought it was either Wilt or Russ though. There is no way anyone can say that MJ was a superior athlete to Wilt, in fact the argument would be made the other way. And if greatness is defined as winning, and it probably should be, then Russ is the greatest of all time.

Too many people look at stats to point out greatness but so often stats arent measured. MJ did not win just because he could score, rather he willed his teams to victory. As Bob Ryah once put it in an argument about MJ's Bulls vs. Russ's Celtics, after he said Russ never lost a winner take all 7th game and MJ never needed one, "we are definitely going 7".

[Moranis]

Jordan had a season when he averaged 32.5 points / 8.0 rebounds / 8.0 assists / 2.9 steals / 53.8% FG%

... and that arguably wasn't even his best year individually.

Which is why I think Lebron is the only player since MJ that could have an argument at the end of his career (Durant is so far away now, he can't be considered at this point).

When adjusted for pace that season by MJ and Lebron (a couple of times) would have been triple double seasons in the season Oscar Robertson had his.  Jason Kidd also would have had a couple, but his scoring was so much less that he is never thought of in that way.

[slamtheking]

Jordan was great but I have always felt that part of that greatness was what he got away with that others could not.  They're not called the 'Jordan Rules' for nothing.  That's where he takes the hit from my perspective--an uneven playing ground due to the hype (deserved) surrounding him.

He still lands in the top 5 players of all time but I honestly believe Russell, Wilt, Bird and Magic rank higher.  didn't see Rusell or Wilt play but Magic and especially Bird didn't get that kind of lopsided officiating in their favor.  I also see Russell, Bird and Magic as truly great players because they made everyone else around them better.  I don't see Jordan near that level.  He was great individually.  looking at him as an individual, I think Wilt was better.

What also drags Jordan down in my eyes is that his titles came at a very low point in the league in terms of overall talent.  Someone claimed earlier that the teams Jordan competed against could be today's teams.  I doubt that very much but I look more towards the 80's to see truly great teams and know that those Bull championship rosters would not have beaten any of the Celtics or Laker teams from 80-88 or the Sixer teams through 84.  I'm not so sure they could have beaten the Buck teams of the early 80's either.

just my 2 cents.  one of the best ever but IMHO, not THE best.

[TwinTower14]

Jordan was great but I have always felt that part of that greatness was what he got away with that others could not.  They're not called the 'Jordan Rules' for nothing.  That's where he takes the hit from my perspective--an uneven playing ground due to the hype (deserved) surrounding him.

He still lands in the top 5 players of all time but I honestly believe Russell, Wilt, Bird and Magic rank higher.  didn't see Rusell or Wilt play but Magic and especially Bird didn't get that kind of lopsided officiating in their favor.  I also see Russell, Bird and Magic as truly great players because they made everyone else around them better.  I don't see Jordan near that level.  He was great individually.  looking at him as an individual, I think Wilt was better.

What also drags Jordan down in my eyes is that his titles came at a very low point in the league in terms of overall talent.  Someone claimed earlier that the teams Jordan competed against could be today's teams.  I doubt that very much but I look more towards the 80's to see truly great teams and know that those Bull championship rosters would not have beaten any of the Celtics or Laker teams from 80-88 or the Sixer teams through 84.  I'm not so sure they could have beaten the Buck teams of the early 80's either.

just my 2 cents.  one of the best ever but IMHO, not THE best.

I really don't think the NBA was watered down at that point.  I believe there was more talent in the NBA in the early 90's than any other era.  He beat Magic's Lakers and beat Isiah's Pistons.  Also, beat future HOF Stockton and Malone, Gary Payton, Barkley etc...He was the most dominate at the height of the Dream Team in 92' which was the best collection of NBA talent in the history of the league.  IMO Jordan was the best, I put a lot of stock in what other greats say and they all seem to agree that Jordan was the king of the hill...